Slow (spell) & incapacitation


Rules Discussion


Is the incapacitation trait missing on the slow spell an error or by design ?

Slowed 2 on a boss for 1min, if he crit fails, sounds a bit too good to be true ;-)


It’s by design. Debuffs without incapacitation are often crippling against a single target, but unlikely to take them out of the fight completely unless they crit fail. Slow is a very solid spell, and can be devastating if you’re using it on a creature with a weak fortitude save. The biggest weakness of the spell is probably the short range, it’s a great spell to combine with Reach Spell.


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I've thought the same thing, especially at high levels where a 3rd level slot comes cheap. Heck, Slow 1 on a Fail might be more threatening, given that it's much more likely. Flying creatures and casters would lose a lot of flexibility, i.e. a dragon couldn't fly & breathe.

Something to consider when building boss fights!
(Hopefully the AP designers have.)


Borvak wrote:

Is the incapacitation trait missing on the slow spell an error or by design ?

Slowed 2 on a boss for 1min, if he crit fails, sounds a bit too good to be true ;-)

Uncontrollable Dance is basically Slow+, and it has the Incapacitation Trait, so yes, I'd say Slow not having the Trait is by design.


Castilliano wrote:

I've thought the same thing, especially at high levels where a 3rd level slot comes cheap. Heck, Slow 1 on a Fail might be more threatening, given that it's much more likely. Flying creatures and casters would lose a lot of flexibility, i.e. a dragon couldn't fly & breathe.

Something to consider when building boss fights!
(Hopefully the AP designers have.)

Keep in mind a flying creature like a dragon must spend one action flying a turn or start falling. ;)


The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

I've thought the same thing, especially at high levels where a 3rd level slot comes cheap. Heck, Slow 1 on a Fail might be more threatening, given that it's much more likely. Flying creatures and casters would lose a lot of flexibility, i.e. a dragon couldn't fly & breathe.

Something to consider when building boss fights!
(Hopefully the AP designers have.)

Keep in mind a flying creature like a dragon must spend one action flying a turn or start falling. ;)

This is an important thing to remember for players and monsters.


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IMO, slow is just on the right side of where the incapacitation tag is needed. It's a strong debuff, but not strong enough to take someone out of the fight entirely.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

I've thought the same thing, especially at high levels where a 3rd level slot comes cheap. Heck, Slow 1 on a Fail might be more threatening, given that it's much more likely. Flying creatures and casters would lose a lot of flexibility, i.e. a dragon couldn't fly & breathe.

Something to consider when building boss fights!
(Hopefully the AP designers have.)

Keep in mind a flying creature like a dragon must spend one action flying a turn or start falling. ;)

Cast Agitate.


It's an open discussion whether slow should be incap, but not when compared to other spells, in particular Paralyze, which is the same level and range etc.

Slow: -/Slow1/Slow1 1 min/ Slow2 1 min
Paralyze: -/Stun1/Paralyze 1 rnd /Paralyze 4 rnd with saves

Because Stun and Slow are pretty much the same, would you rather be Slow1 1 minute or Slow3 1 round? rather Slow2 1 min or Slow3 for possibly 4 rounds?

Clearly I'd rather be paralyzed 1 round (F)
However because most fights don't last one minute, I'd rather be slow 2 (CF)
HOWEVER if cast on a higher-level, then Paralyze becomes
-/-/Stun1/Paralyze 1 rnd, at which point Slow is *unarguably* better.

I really don't think that's intended. It probably stems from Slow having been improved at some point in design comapred to Stun.

I've had look at all 1-6 incap spells, and frankly it's all over the place. Some could lose the incap without much consequence, others (such as Color Spray) are poweful even with it.

A good indication here is the newer spells, such as Phantom Prison, Behold the Weave (compare to Deja Vu!), which seems more reasonable. By reasonable I mean no extreme effect, regardless of incap.


Aratorin wrote:
Uncontrollable Dance is basically Slow+, and it has the Incapacitation Trait, so yes, I'd say Slow not having the Trait is by design.

Aren't you here supposing the rules reveal design intentions that are fully realized with no error? Clearly there are rules that are errors, though!

One could then as easily argue that Slow not having incap is a mistake, when compared to UD.

Horizon Hunters

Paralyzed is a much worse condition than Slow. Paralyzed makes you flat-footed, and prevents you from using any action that's not purely mental. Slow just removes actions, meaning you can still use Reactions.

Yes, Slow 2 is rough, but that's the cost of crit failing. Enemies are usually level +2 to +3, meaning they would typically only have a 5-15% chance of crit failing the save, but they would still be able to take reactions like Attack of Opportunity, while paralyzed will make them more vulnerable and prevent those reactions completely.


It's definitely the best non incap debuff. Crit fails basically give you the win.


A Slowed 1 target might be able to escape and can still use their 2-action main shtick, i.e. spells or Strike+. It mainly messes with their tactics which is great if they rely on hit & run, flying for defense, etc., but not game-breaking.

Crit fail may take them out of the combat, but that's true of many spells. And a beefier monster still retains its main Strike, and as Cordell mentioned, has its Reactions which can be severe too.

I think one big difference is if you spam Slow, the monster's still participating in combat w/ Fails, but if you spam Paralyze, it isn't. And on a Success, Stunned 1 takes away Reactions, making it worse than Slowed 1. So yeah, Paralyze kinda needs the Incapacitation trait.

And if you flip the script, where minions are raining these down on the party, one might see how much worse Paralyze w/o Incapacitation would be than Slow. At those levels, the PCs should have Haste effects available (as well as other solutions that might apply to both spells).

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