Muscle... WITCH?


Advice


Hello, my name is John- AND I'M KARSG! ...Um, yes, that is Karsg, and together-

WE THINKED US UP AN IDEA, WE DID! ...Well, yes, "we" did...

You've all heard of the Muscle Wizard, but can anyone help us make A MUSCLE WITCH?

We're aiming for the same end goal here:

To turn a class in no way designed for melee combat, into a BLOODTHIRSTY, TORNADO-LIKE, WOOD-CHIPPER OF GORE AND VISCERA. And, if everything goes right, to utilise said WHIRLING DERVISH OF DEATH AND DESTRUCTION, to quickly and efficiently reduce any and all STUPID MEAT-BAGZ WITH POINTY STICKZ into a pile of evenly diced fleshy cubes.

To be more specific, in case you hadn't figured it out all ready, Karsg and I are attempting to create an... at least, somewhat effective Witch Build, focused almost entirely on the wonderful art of MELEE COMBAT! For, as we all know, the use of "Traditional Magic" is for cowards! YES! REAL CASTERS USE MAGICKZ TO CAST FIST AND TO PUNCH TINGS! ALL THE TINGS, PUNCH AND STAB AND BREAK AND ZLASH AND CRUSH AND CUT AND BLEED! THAT BE THE REAL PURPOZE OF MAGICKZ! TO HIT! TO HIT ALL THE TINGS! TO HIT ALL THE TINGS ALL THE TIME! RRAAAAGGHHHH!!! HIT THEM AAAALLLLLLL!!!

...Um, yeah... what he said...


There's a few ways. The first involves the ashiftah archetype, the hex strike feat and turning invisible a lot via ghost walk. Doesn't really fit your description, but she does punch people.

Next is using the eldritch knight prestige class and buffs. Unfortunately a lot of the patron spells go up in smoke when you prestige out and witch spells aren't the best buffs, and while there are neat tricks involving arcing weapon those may not be quite Karsg's desire.

Polymorphing into something big and tearing faces off is probably the closest to what you're after. The transformation patron is all but required. Tarondor's guide to the Transmuter Wizard may be relevant.

Last a lot of people have tried to turn the white haired witch into an effective grappler. Multiclassing is involved and I'm not sure success was achieved.

The first three can benefit from defensive hexes (iceplant, soothsayer+fortune etc.). Most of the above can use the spite spell (w/frigid touch or vampiric touch), note it as one of the few unique tricks of a witch for melee. Either being a duergar or persuading your GM that ironskin isn't a racial spell would help.


I would say Hagbound, going with a race that has a bite attack, and picking Oni-Spirit Master for a gore attack.

This would allow you to put your strength to good use with a lot of natural attacks.

Now for defence... maybe go down with the whole hellknight armor feats? But mostly cast spells for protection.


avr wrote:

There's a few ways. The first involves the ashiftah archetype, the hex strike feat and turning invisible a lot via ghost walk. Doesn't really fit your description, but she does punch people.

Next is using the eldritch knight prestige class and buffs. Unfortunately a lot of the patron spells go up in smoke when you prestige out and witch spells aren't the best buffs, and while there are neat tricks involving arcing weapon those may not be quite Karsg's desire.

Polymorphing into something big and tearing faces off is probably the closest to what you're after. The transformation patron is all but required. Tarondor's guide to the Transmuter Wizard may be relevant.

Last a lot of people have tried to turn the white haired witch into an effective grappler. Multiclassing is involved and I'm not sure success was achieved.

The first three can benefit from defensive hexes (iceplant, soothsayer+fortune etc.). Most of the above can use the spite spell (w/frigid touch or vampiric touch), note it as one of the few unique tricks of a witch for melee. Either being a duergar or persuading your GM that ironskin isn't a racial spell would help.

Thank You for the suggestions


Secret Wizard wrote:

I would say Hagbound, going with a race that has a bite attack, and picking Oni-Spirit Master for a gore attack.

This would allow you to put your strength to good use with a lot of natural attacks.

Now for defence... maybe go down with the whole hellknight armor feats? But mostly cast spells for protection.

Thank You for the suggestions

Shadow Lodge

Hedge Witch and Ley Line Guardian are Witch archetypes that make them spontaneous casters. Well, Hedge Witch allows for casting without prep so that is up to GM how it will interact with the idea.

Dragon Disciple. Eldritch Heritage(Orc). Enjoying stacking Strength bonuses. Punch away!

Your BaB will suffer a bit, but high Strength bonuses can make up for it. If you feel secure in your Armor Class then Form ofnthe Dragon adds a size modifier to Strength, and Belts of Physical might add an enhancement bonus so it should all stack.

Take Improved Unarmed Strike and punch things as a dragon.


avr wrote:
Last a lot of people have tried to turn the white haired witch into an effective grappler. Multiclassing is involved and I'm not sure success was achieved.

There is a build called "The Bride Of Hell" that can be found at Zenith Games- Guide to the Builds. I tried to give a link but it would not work.

I tried it some years back. It takes a fair while until it gets fully effective,but is really powerful once there.

The build is way out of date and you need a GM prepared to allow some things that are questionable.


Joynt Jezebel wrote:
avr wrote:
Last a lot of people have tried to turn the white haired witch into an effective grappler. Multiclassing is involved and I'm not sure success was achieved.

There is a build called "The Bride Of Hell" that can be found at Zenith Games- Guide to the Builds. I tried to give a link but it would not work.

I tried it some years back. It takes a fair while until it gets fully effective,but is really powerful once there.

The build is way out of date and you need a GM prepared to allow some things that are questionable.

A quick google finds The Bride of Hell. An attack bonus and CMB about equal to level (+11-14 at L12) seems light to me even if that's pre-items.

I've seen other white haired witch builds I'm sure. The target is tempting even if it's hard to make work.


You are right about the CMB of course. And the witch can't wear armour either if they want to cast any spells. These are very serious negatives.

But the Bride of Hell can make AoO attacks over a wide area and attack at range and if it does grapple something it gets really horrid. And at level 20 it is a prepared arcane caster with level 9 spells. It certainly has it's power once it cranks up. Of course your GM has to allow some things for you to do it.


Invoker seems to me to be a better choice since Hagbound loses the first three hexes so you're not picking up any until level 6. Invoker just makes you wait until level 2 to pick up a hex.


Joynt Jezebel wrote:

You are right about the CMB of course. And the witch can't wear armour either if they want to cast any spells. These are very serious negatives.

By the time you get the Eldritch knights prestige class you could have a mithril chain shirt to compensate the spell failure


Is this supposed to be a reference to the Muscle Wizard from the Small Medium series by Andrew Seiple?


Zepheri wrote:
Joynt Jezebel wrote:

You are right about the CMB of course. And the witch can't wear armour either if they want to cast any spells. These are very serious negatives.

By the time you get the Eldritch knights prestige class you could have a mithril chain shirt to compensate the spell failure

10% spell failure (mithral shirt) is really unpopular, for good reason. More likely you work around it with the few zero-ASF armors (haramaki, armored kilt or silken ceremonial armor; maybe a mithral buckler) and other means of defence.


avr wrote:
Joynt Jezebel wrote:
avr wrote:
Last a lot of people have tried to turn the white haired witch into an effective grappler. Multiclassing is involved and I'm not sure success was achieved.

There is a build called "The Bride Of Hell" that can be found at Zenith Games- Guide to the Builds. I tried to give a link but it would not work.

I tried it some years back. It takes a fair while until it gets fully effective,but is really powerful once there.

The build is way out of date and you need a GM prepared to allow some things that are questionable.

A quick google finds The Bride of Hell. An attack bonus and CMB about equal to level (+11-14 at L12) seems light to me even if that's pre-items.

I've seen other white haired witch builds I'm sure. The target is tempting even if it's hard to make work.

I like to dip just 1 level in White Haired Witch, relying on other things for a high CMB and Attack Bonus. You can use your White Hair to do things like Great Cleave and Grapple every adjacent opponent, and a Jezebel was saying, you can still make Attacks of Opportunity with say Broken Wing Gambit or Snake Fang and Feral Combat Training.

I REALLY like the Cavalier Expert Captor Ability which lets you Tie Up and opponent you have Grappled, not Pinned, and you don't have that -10 you normally do. So if you have White Hair and Great Cleave, you can attack and Grapple every adjacent opponent as a Standard Action, Tie 1 of them Up as a Move Action if you have Greater Grapple. You can Tie Up a 2nd as a Swift Action if you have Rapid Grappler, and if any of the rest try to escape, you can Grapple and Tie them Up as Attacks of Opportunity if you Broken Wing Gambit or Snake Fang.

The earliest I've been able to figure out how to Grapple and Tie Up an opponent in 1 round is with the combination of White Haired Witch, Maneuver Master Monk, and Cavalier, Order of the Penitent. You hit them with your Hair, Grapple as a Free Action then with Flurry of Maneuvers, you can Grapple them again, Tying them Up with your Expert Captor Ability. 2 levels in Cavalier, 1 level in White Haired Witch, and 1 level in Maneuver Master Monk: Level 4.

Shadow Lodge

No idea what their builds were, but I do recall running into a few strength based white haired witches in pfs games that were fairly effective grappling monsters.


Get a Mithral light Shield w/quickdraw. 0% ASF, no armor check, and is a source of AC enchantment.

If you get the feat Arcane Armor Training, you can add a Mithral Chain shirt 10% ASF, max 6 Dex, no armor check, and is a source of AC enchantment. With the feat, you spend a swift to drop the ASF to 0% for the round. If you are fighting that much, your swifts won't see much use.

/cevah

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