Thomas Keller |
Considering creating a cleric of Nethys, so I was looking at domain spells. In the Knowledge domain, is it my imagination, or is the initial spell better than the advanced spell? It seems like the initial spell gives you 5e advantage over any knowledge check, but the advanced only gives advantage on creature knowledge checks. Huh?
Joana |
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I believe the deal is that, with scholarly recollection, you are already spending an action, either to Seek or to Recall Knowledge, whereas with know the enemy, you get to roll the Recall Knowledge action as a Reaction and still get your usual 3 actions per round.
It's an action economy thing.
Vali Nepjarson |
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Not the way I read it, but okay.
They are correct. Remember that all reactions require something to trigger them. The trigger for scholarly recollection is "You attempt a Perception check to Seek or you attempt a skill check to Recall Knowledge with a skill you're trained in". This means that you must be using your action to seek or recall knowledge and THEN you use your reaction to give yourself advantage on these rolls. You must have already used the action before you can use your reaction.
Know the Enemy's trigger is rolling initiative, succeeding on an attack, or an enemy failing a save against your spell. You're getting a semi-free Recall Knowledge without needing to spend an extra action to do so, and you get it at advantage.
I personally find the idea that both of these domain spells just give you advantage on knowledge checks to be kind of boring, but Know the Enemy is certainly better in this sense.
Ascalaphus |
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The higher level one has
Trigger You roll initiative and can see a creature, ...
That's much better than
Trigger You attempt a Perception check to Seek, or you attempt a skill check to Recall Knowledge with a skill you're trained in.
The second one triggers on Seek (cost: 1 action), Recall Knowledge (cost: 1 action), the first can trigger on "combat starts".
That's stronger; it saves you one action in the first round of combat, which can be important, but it also means you get the information right at the start of combat, not just when you get to your turn. So you might be able to shout out a warning to the barbarian not to slice up the black pudding.
Phntm888 |
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Uncommon, Cleric, Divination, Fortune
Source Core Rulebook pg. 396
Domain Knowledge
Cast Reaction verbal; Trigger You attempt a Perception check to Seek, or you attempt a skill check to Recall Knowledge with a skill you're trained in.Speaking a short prayer as you gather your thoughts, you're blessed to find that your deity gave you just the right bit of information for your situation. Roll the triggering check twice and use the better result.
Uncommon, Cleric, Divination, Fortune
Source Core Rulebook pg. 393
Domain Knowledge
Cast Reaction somatic; Trigger You roll initiative and can see a creature, you succeed at an attack roll against a creature, or a creature fails a saving throw against one of your spells.Use a Recall Knowledge action, rolling the appropriate skill check to identify the triggering creature's abilities. You can roll your check twice and use the better result.
The difference is in the Triggers. The wording of Know the Enemy is such that it allows you to treat the Recall Knowledge action as a reaction when the Trigger is met. Take the first Trigger. "You roll initiative and can see a creature." The text doesn't say Use a Recall Knowledge action on your turn, it just says to use a Recall Knowledge action. This means that even if you are last in Initiative, you can use Recall Knowledge at the start of the fight, off-turn, and it doesn't cost one of your three actions.
Aratorin |
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The first line of Know The Enemy says "You take the Recall Knowledge action". So you're also using an action with that spell.
You are using that Action as a result of the Spell, just like you use 2 Strike Actions as part of Hunted Shot. It does not cost you one of your Actions.
The Reaction doesn't even have to occur during your Turn, so it's not possible for it to use one of your 3 Actions for your Turn.
If your enemy fails your Grease Save during their own turn, you could use the Reaction, and the Initiative Roll is not during anyone's turn.
Kendaan |
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That's because one of the trigger is "a creature fail it's save against one of your spell".
Let's take another example, the Fighter attack of opportunity.
If the reaction is triggered, it says "make a melee strike" but you do not use one of your action for it as you would if you were to do a melee strike at your turn.
That's how reactions work, and probably why you're normally limited to 1 reaction per turn.
MaxAstro |
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See for example Sudden Charge, which instructs you to take three Actions, but only costs two Actions.
An activity doesn't cost more Actions than it says it does, regardless of how many Actions it tells you to take as part of the activity.
See "Activities" on pg461 of the core rules for the full explanation, but the relevant line is this:
An activity might cause you to use specific actions within it. You don’t have to spend additional actions to perform them—they’re already factored into the activity’s required actions.
Thomas Keller |
That's because one of the trigger is "a creature fail it's save against one of your spell".
Let's take another example, the Fighter attack of opportunity.
If the reaction is triggered, it says "make a melee strike" but you do not use one of your action for it as you would if you were to do a melee strike at your turn.
That's how reactions work, and probably why you're normally limited to 1 reaction per turn.
Exactly my point. It says make melee strike, not take a melee strike action.
Thomas Keller |
Anyway, the subordinate action is clear, that any action part of a reaction do not cost extra actions.
Yeah, clear as mud. If you're right, I find it odd that the spell that doesn't require an action uses the word "action", and the one that does require an action uses the words "skill check".
Ascalaphus |
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Kendaan wrote:Anyway, the subordinate action is clear, that any action part of a reaction do not cost extra actions.Yeah, clear as mud. If you're right, I find it odd that the spell that doesn't require an action uses the word "action", and the one that does require an action uses the words "skill check".
This is PF2's particular.. dialect of English. After a while you get used to it and it's pretty logical in its own way.
Scholarly Recollection triggers when you're already doing an action to Recall Knowledge and makes you do it better. There are a number of reactions like this throughout the book, that say "hey I see you're doing X, let's make you do X better".
Know the Enemy triggers basically when you're taking a look at a new enemy and gives you an instant Recall Knowledge action with a boost. This is another style they have of writing abilities, that boils down to "normally doing X would take an action, but now you get X for free/at a discounted cost as part of using this ability". There are a variety of "move twice then attack" abilities for example which package three actions for the price of two.
Like I said, the language takes some getting used to. But there's a method to the madness.
Thomas Keller |
I also just now noticed that Scholarly Recollection requires you to be trained in the skill you're trying to Recall Knowledge with.
I still think that Know The Enemy is too specific in its usefulness, only being able to recall a creature's abilities, but I believe I was wrong about the action requirement.
Kelseus |
I still think that Know The Enemy is too specific in its usefulness, only being able to recall a creature's abilities, but I believe I was wrong about the action requirement.
What would you rather the Recall Knowledge action recall if not the monster's abilities (this term includes weaknesses and resistances)?
Thomas Keller |
Thomas Keller wrote:What would you rather the Recall Knowledge action recall if not the monster's abilities (this term includes weaknesses and resistances)?
I still think that Know The Enemy is too specific in its usefulness, only being able to recall a creature's abilities, but I believe I was wrong about the action requirement.
Considering you can do the same thing, plus any other Recall Knowledge check you are trained in, at the cost of an action, with the initial spell...
Super Zero |
You wouldn’t want the higher-level spell to completely invalidate the lower-level one anyway. That’s fine for a spell slot spell—the better one has a cost, and you can just stop using the weaker one anyway—but not a focus spell for a caster who will have both.
So here the one has an action advantage (better in combat), but the other is broader (so you’ll still use it sometimes).
MaxAstro |
Yeah, that action economy thing can be huge. I recently gave my players a special boon due to a roleplay achievement they made - basically once per combat they can recall knowledge against a common undead enemy as a free action, as long as it's a type they haven't encountered before.
Even with all of those restrictions, it's one of their favorite abilities. Having to spend an action to recall knowledge hurts more than you'd think.
Thomas Keller |
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Thomas Keller wrote:I get it. Still trying to decide between this and Destruction domain. This fits the character concept better, but Cry of Destruction rocks!Both are good, but keep in mind, cry of destruction is a really short cone.
That's what she said!