Stiletto Boots, Weapon Finesse and Improvised Weapon Questions

[Drewzer]

I will preface this by saying I’m asking this largely with regards to PFS rules but any help is appreciated

I’ve recently been considering creating an Unchained Rogue who uses Catch-Off Guard, using Stiletto Boots as her improvised weapon. It seems that rules regarding Improvised Weapons are a bit thin on the ground, and I want to try and get some idea as to if can ever work, so I have a few questions

Are Stiletto Boots able to be used in conjunction with Weapon Finesse, and if so, would they be valid choice for an Unchained Rogues Finesse Training?
Would they count as a weapon for things like Heirloom Weapon? What about Magic Weapon? Weapon Focus?
Could you buy silver or cold iron versions of them? I don’t think you can buy masterwork versions of improvised weapons but at this point I don’t know what rules to look at

[Lemartes]

Interesting. I had made a character(never played) that used stiletto boots with catch-off guard and weapon finesse.

I can't see why that wouldn't work.

I don't think anything you've said is out right illegal.

PFS DM's might disagree though.

[VoodistMonk]

Could always use the Boot Blade as reference... I imagine the mechanics to be quite similar. And the boot blade is a legitimate weapon in the game, so it's not like a sharp thing on one's feet has never been done.

[Andy Brown]

Weapon focus requires proficiency in the weapon, and by definition you're considered not proficient with an improvised weapon. (Catch Off Guard removes the penalty, without giving profiency)
Heirloom Weapon is referring to a weapon, and by definition, improvised weapons are things that aren't designed to be weapons. Same applies to Magic Weapon.

Weapon Finesse needs a light weapon, and it's GM's call on what an improvised weapon counts as (I'd say boots are fairly obviously light, but there's nothing actually written to say that)

At best you're in table variation territory for PFS, but if you're worried about getting support from the rules as written, you're really looking at "no"

And remember that you can't enchant improvised weapons as weapons, so you're going to fall behind on damage

[Coolwasabi]

Andy Brown wrote:

Weapon focus requires proficiency in the weapon, and by definition you're considered not proficient with an improvised weapon. (Catch Off Guard removes the penalty, without giving profiency)

....
And remember that you can't enchant improvised weapons as weapons, so you're going to fall behind on damage

The Improvisational Focus feat both makes you count as proficient and considered to have weapon focus with improvised.

They also added Gloves of Improvised Might that sort of are like amulet of mighty fists for improvised.

You could always just go unarmed strike with equipment trick boots for another approach.

[gnoams]

Makeshift Scrapper rogue archetype, Shikigami manipulation feat, gloves of improvised might, monk of the empty hand archetype, there's lots of different ways of adding an enhancement bonus to improvised weapons.

There are some extremely broken improvised weapon builds out there using the skikigami style feats and metamagic rods.

The improvisational focus feat is weapon focus for improvised weapons, and counts as such for prerequisites for other feats.

For the non-improvised route: I did a pfs character that dual wielded boot blades. She was a brawler fighter archetype. I don't think the improvised weapon stiletto boots existed at the time, so I reskinned the boot blades. I figured the making everything difficult terrain with the boot blades out made sense for some extreme heels. Played her from level 1-12, I never ran into a GM who had issue with it.

If I was to do the same character now though, I'd go the improvised weapon route.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Drewzer wrote:

I will preface this by saying I’m asking this largely with regards to PFS rules but any help is appreciated

So, you can't take Improved Catch Off-Guard (3rd Party)

Drewzer wrote:

Are Stiletto Boots able to be used in conjunction with Weapon Finesse, and if so, would they be valid choice for an Unchained Rogues Finesse Training?

Improvised Weapons can be Light, One Handed, or Two Handed. They might do Piercing, Bludgeoning, or Slashing Damage.

You say you want to use Stiletto Boots as a Weapon, and you want them to be treated as Light, Improvised Weapons that inflict Piercing Damage. I don't see any problem with this. If a PFSGM wants to object to that, you can still just say you are wielding Light Improvised Weapons that do Piercing Damage, and it doesn't mattter what you are using: the PFSGM could only attack your roleplaying style, not the machanics of your character concept, and he'd only do that just to be a jerk.

It looks like any Light Weapon is Finessable, so you can use Finesse Training.

gnoams wrote:

Makeshift Scrapper rogue archetype,

I'd have you be an Unchained Makeshift Scrapper Rogue, so you get Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything as Bonus Feats. I was just looking at it: there might be a problem. Makshift Scrappers get Supernatural Improvisation instead of Trapsense, and Unchained Rogues don't get Trap Sense: they get Danger Sense. The 2 abilities look an awful lot alike, and you are supposed to be able to use Core Archetypes for Unchained Rogues. But PFSGMs wouldn't let me get away with that. But I suspect I get targeted for aggressive adjudication.

Drewzer wrote:

Could you buy silver or cold iron versions of them? I don’t think you can buy masterwork versions of improvised weapons but at this point I don’t know what rules to look at

You could totally have Cold Iron, Adamantine, or Mithril-heeled boots. They are a thing outside the game. The governor of New Amsterdam was nicknamed Old Silverheels. Dorothy Gale wore Silver Shoes. There certainly are Masterwork Boots. You could argue that Masterwork Boots are not supposed to give you an Attack Bonus, but Mithral and Adamantine weapons are always Masterwork. I don't think there is any reason to suppose that Mithril or Adamantine Improvised Weapons are not Masterwork Weapons. That's not so true of Cold Iron or Alchemal Silver Weapons.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Another Option is that in game terms, you are using Armor Spikes, and the spikes you are using are the stiletto heels of your armor-boots.

[gnoams]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

gnoams wrote:

Makeshift Scrapper rogue archetype,

I'd have you be an Unchained Makeshift Scrapper Rogue, so you get Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything as Bonus Feats. I was just looking at it: there might be a problem. Makshift Scrappers get Supernatural Improvisation instead of Trapsense, and Unchained Rogues don't get Trap Sense: they get Danger Sense...

All rogue archetypes work with unchained. Danger sense = trap sense for the purpose of archetypes that trade it out. It says so right in the danger sense class feature.

[Derklord]

Drewzer wrote:

I’ve recently been considering creating an Unchained Rogue who uses Catch-Off Guard

I hope you realize that the "unarmed opponents" the feat talks about are those who have no weapon ready, don't have Improved Unarmed strikes (or active touch spells), and no natural weapons.

Drewzer wrote:

Are Stiletto Boots able to be used in conjunction with Weapon Finesse, and if so, would they be valid choice for an Unchained Rogues Finesse Training?

Would they count as a weapon for things like Heirloom Weapon? What about Magic Weapon? Weapon Focus?

No one knows. Pathfinder is horrible regards to which more-or-less-weapon counts as one for which usage of the word "weapon".

[Scott Wilhelm]

Derklord wrote:

Drewzer wrote:

I’ve recently been considering creating an Unchained Rogue who uses Catch-Off Guard

I hope you realize that the "unarmed opponents" the feat talks about are those who have no weapon ready, don't have Improved Unarmed strikes (or active touch spells), and no natural weapons.

I was wondering what, if any tactics the OP wants to use to lock in her(?) Sneak Attack Damage.

[Diego Rossi]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

If a PFSGM wants to object to that, you can still just say you are wielding Light Improvised Weapons that do Piercing Damage, and it doesn't mattter what you are using: the PFSGM could only attack your roleplaying style, not the machanics of your character concept, and he'd only do that just to be a jerk.

To use an improvised weapon you need an appropriate object. If you only have your normal clothes you can't say "my clothes are an improvised weapon that does piercing damage". You can use them as an improvised garrote, but not as an improvised dagger.

- * -

AoN wrote:

Stiletto boots

The most ostentatious and impractical of footwear, the tall heel attached to these boots adds several inches to your height. This type of boot is popular among Chelish nobles, though the trend has recently caught on among some members of Taldan courts. You can use the heel of a stiletto boot as an improvised weapon, dealing damage as a punching dagger.

I really hate when the writers think they have a clever idea and don't care about making it clear and functional.

As written I could ask you to remove the heel from the boots and use it in your hand as an improvised punching dagger. Or let you attack stomping your heel on the enemy lower appendages.
But in the latter case what happens if you are disarmed? You can be disarmed or it works as a locked gauntlet?
What happens if your weapon is sundered and destroyed? Walking with a shoe with a heel several inches high and one without it is difficult.

From my point of view, using this kind of stuff for a build that you will use for several levels end either with GMs that have to make decisions on the fly or with a GMs that decide to overlook the peculiarities of your weapon and treat the boot as if you were wielding a broken bottle.

Neither is a good thing at a PFS table.

[Drewzer]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Derklord wrote:

Drewzer wrote:

I’ve recently been considering creating an Unchained Rogue who uses Catch-Off Guard

I hope you realize that the "unarmed opponents" the feat talks about are those who have no weapon ready, don't have Improved Unarmed strikes (or active touch spells), and no natural weapons.

I was wondering what, if any tactics the OP wants to use to lock in her(?) Sneak Attack Damage.

My original idea for the build was using disarming and TWF and eventually taking Break Guard, though there’s always the issue of enemies having natural attacks ect.

A possible backup plan is TWFing using a hooked shield and trying to make enemies flat footed that way. It would involve me investing more resources into making it work but it seems a tad more reliable.

Diego Rossi wrote:

I really hate when the writers think they have a clever idea and don't care about making it clear and functional.

I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s really annoying finding a cool spell or weapon and then realising I have to try and work out how on earth it actually interacts with the rest of the rules (Battle Poi Warpriest, I’m looking at you...)

The rules surrounding improvised weapons are just rather thin on the ground and relying on GMs ruling in my favour just feels bad. There’s always the possibility of me asking a couple of the regular GMs for their opinion on rulings, and treat corner cases as and when they come up.
Failing that, I can always add it to my ever growing pile of possible home game characters

[VoodistMonk]

If someone said they wanted to build the Karate Kid, and exclusively kick things... a GM would say that you need the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, and that would be the end of the discussion. Your character is free to run around kicking things for the rest of the game uninhibited.

How is this any different? Is there honestly a debate on the mechanics of how a stiletto is used as a weapon?

Let's start with the fact that it's a boot. Boots go on your feet.

Stiletto boots have a pointy heel. The pointy end is the dangerous end. To use it as a weapon, you put the pointy end in your enemy.

To put the pointy end in your enemy whilst wearing the boot would probably entail something resembling a kick or stomp. Both are things that can be done without taking your boots off. Both are things that you would allow without question to someone using the Improved Unarmed Strike feat to be Karate Kid.

Improved Unarmed Strike is one feat. Catch Off-guard is one feat. I don't see why it wouldn't work exactly how you want it to or expect it to. You aren't getting away with anything extra.

If Shikigami Style is in the future for this Improvised Weapons buipd, it's only going to make it as if you had bigger boots, and nobody cares, because bigger punching daggers still tickle.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Drewzer wrote:

My original idea for the build was using disarming and TWF and eventually taking Break Guard,

Ah, so you are going to disarm your opponents so that they are unarmed, and with Catch Off-Guard, the are Flatfooted, while you are in stilettos!

Drewzer wrote:

A possible backup plan is TWFing using a hooked shield and trying to make enemies flat footed that way. It would involve me investing more resources into making it work but it seems a tad more reliable.

I like that idea. Tripping builds are lovely, and you will be combinding Tripping with Sneak Attack and Improvised Weapons.

You can be a Hinyasi and Snakebite Striker brawler. Hinyasi Brawlers get this thing where they 1 free Trip attempt per round when they hit with their Improvised weapons, and they get Sneak Attack Damage.

If you use a Tripping weapon, you can elect to drop your weapon rather than get tripped yourself. Sickles are light, simple tripping weapons. Throwing Shields are Tripping weapons, and you can have Quickdraw Throwing Shield with a Hooked Boss, so if you are forced to drop your Throwing Shield due to a bad Trip Attempt, you can just draw another one as a Free Action. And you can choose whether to Trip your opponent or make them Flatfooted. Flails are both Tripping and Disarming Weapons.

This is a tangent from your stiletto boots, but I've been thinking there is a lot potential in Throwing Shields. For starters, they do 1d6 with no Shield Spikes, so if you put the Bashing Enchantment on them, they do a respectable 2d6. They are Ranged Tripping Weapons, so that's pretty cool, and if you have Snapshot Feats, you can take Greater Trip and make your Attack of Opportunity with your Shield as well. If your character is Human, Half Elf, or Half Orc, you can take Martial Versatility and Ascetic Style and apply Vicious Stomp to your Throwing Shield. Vicious Stomp stacks with Greater Trip. You can trip them to knock them down, then use one of your Attacks of Opportunity to make them Flatfooted, then the other to hit them again and lock in your Sneak Attack Damage!

If you are making them Flatfooted, you might look at the Sap Adept, Sap Master and Knockout Artist feats. Sap Master doubles your Sneak Attack Damage Dice. The other 2 add +1 Damage/SA Die. Those 3 Feats require you inflict nonlethal Bludgeoning Damage to Flatfooted Oppnents, and Knockout Artist requires you use Unarmed Strikes, but there are ways of making Knockout Artist usable with your Improvised Weapons or (Quickdraw, Hooked) Throwing Shield.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

If a PFSGM wants to object to that, you can still just say you are wielding Light Improvised Weapons that do Piercing Damage, and it doesn't mattter what you are using: the PFSGM could only attack your roleplaying style, not the machanics of your character concept, and he'd only do that just to be a jerk.

To use an improvised weapon you need an appropriate object. If you only have your normal clothes you can't say "my clothes are an improvised weapon that does piercing damage". You can use them as an improvised garrote, but not as an improvised dagger.

Yes, but any of large variety of weapons will serve as a light, improvised weapon that does Piercing Damage. I'm just saying that if the GM will not let the OP use the boots in that way, the game mechanics of the PC will still be just fine.