Manifold Edge wrote: Manifold Edge Feat 18
Ranger, Source Core Rulebook pg. 177
Prerequisites: hunter’s edge, masterful hunter
You’ve learned every possible edge to use against your foes. When you use Hunt Prey, you can gain a hunter’s edge benefit other than the one you selected at 1st level. If you do, you don’t gain the additional benefit from masterful hunter.
Shared Prey wrote: Shared Prey Feat 14
Ranger, Source Core Rulebook pg. 175
Prerequisites Double Prey, Warden’s Boon
Hunting as a duo, you and your ally both single out your prey. When you use Hunt Prey and select only one prey, you can grant your Hunt Prey benefits and hunter’s edge to an ally in addition to gaining them yourself. The ally retains these benefits until you use Hunt Prey again.
Animal Companion wrote: Animal Companion Feat 1
Druid, Ranger, Source Core Rulebook pg. 133
...
Ranger: When you Hunt Prey, your animal companion gains the action’s benefits and your hunter’s edge benefit if you have one.
From my understanding, Manifold Edge is a way for a ranger to gain an additional hunter's edge other than the one they selected at 1st level, and the hunter enjoys the benefit of both edges. My question is, through these feats, can the additional edge from Manifold Edge be shared with allies or animal companions?
My first reaction is that it probably it is the case. But given how Pathfinder2e often keeps a tight leash on such things, I think that Share Prey will only grant your ally the benefits of your main Edge, while you and probably you companion will have the two Edges.
Given the high level of these features (including a level 20), I think your assessment is correct.
Sorry for being so inconclusive, but sometimes what I think it's an obvious answer turns into a complex issue.
Hmm, I'm likely to say that yes you do give both benefits to both the ally and animal companion. You are loosing the Masterful Hunter benefit which I presume would be also given to them.
I don't think that's what Manifold Edge does. I don't see anything that says you get both benefits. It basically lets you swap out your normal Edge for a different one, with the sacrifice of the temporary Edge being weaker.
So, like if you're fighting an enemy that's immune to Precision Damage, you switch to Flurry instead, as the base Flurry Edge is better than getting no benefit from your Precision Edge.
If it gave you both, it would be extremely OP.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Aratorin's reading is how the groups I've been playing with have interpreted it. Manifold Edge lets you pick between your normal Edge or the un-upgraded versions of one of the other two edges.
Manifold trades out your master hunter benfit for second basic benfit.
Instead of getting master hunter part of flurry you get basic part and extra damage from precision.
Aratorin wrote: I don't think that's what Manifold Edge does. I don't see anything that says you get both benefits. It basically lets you swap out your normal Edge for a different one, with the sacrifice of the temporary Edge being weaker.
So, like if you're fighting an enemy that's immune to Precision Damage, you switch to Flurry instead, as the base Flurry Edge is better than getting no benefit from your Precision Edge.
If it gave you both, it would be extremely OP.
I don't see why you would lose your normal Edge. Nothing in the description of Manifold Edge says you lose your normal edge. Even the dictionary definition of manifold means 'many'
Merriam-Webster wrote: Definition of manifold (Entry 1 of 4)
1a: marked by diversity or variety
performs the manifold duties required of him
— J. H. Ferguson
b: MANY
the manifold details
2: comprehending or uniting various features : MULTIFARIOUS
the romantic symphony, with its manifold melodic content
— P. H. Lang
3: rightfully so-called for many reasons
a manifold liar
4: consisting of or operating many of one kind combined
a manifold bellpull
Ellias' and Reziburno's point is one that I oversaw though. I haven't considered that 'not gaining the master hunter benefit' means losing the master hunter benefit of the normal Edge. In my initial interpretation, I thought you would have your normal edge, your normal masterful hunter edge, and also the new edge from Manifold Edge. Maybe it isn't as strong as I thought.
Edit: it does raise the question though, does "If you do, you don’t gain the additional benefit from masterful hunter" apply to both edges, or just the Manifold Edge's edge? Contextually, the sentence probably describes the newly gained edge from Manifold Edge, but it could very well also apply to all features gained by the Ranger. A straight gain of edges seems pretty OP, but then again, this is an 18th level feat, so maybe it's intended to be powerful?
@voideternal
That was my thinking as well. You're choosing an 18th level feat, by that point, it seems reasonable to dabble in another path. Druids do it much early, for example. I think that choosing one of the other makes this feat beyond garbage, because you will NEVER EVER trade out your main Edge with the Masterful Hunter's benefit for a meager +2 on some skills and +1 AC or 1d8 Extra, even Flurry Hunter isn't that great because if you didn't pick it you didn't intend to do that many attacks in the first place (odds are you're either using a Crossbow or doing something outside of damaging focus, like my Ranger that's focused on knowledge and support abilities like Warden's Boon, Monster Hunter, etc).
Trading your Masterful Hunter benefit, on the other hand, doesn't feel that bad, but I think it doesn't compete with the other feats at 18th, specially against Impossible Flurry/Volley and Masterful Companion (basically a must have for your companion, if it's your main playstyle).
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
voideternal wrote: Aratorin wrote: I don't think that's what Manifold Edge does. I don't see anything that says you get both benefits. It basically lets you swap out your normal Edge for a different one, with the sacrifice of the temporary Edge being weaker.
So, like if you're fighting an enemy that's immune to Precision Damage, you switch to Flurry instead, as the base Flurry Edge is better than getting no benefit from your Precision Edge.
If it gave you both, it would be extremely OP.
I don't see why you would lose your normal Edge. Nothing in the description of Manifold Edge says you lose your normal edge. It says "other than", not "in addition to". I never really thought of this Feat as unclear, but I can understand how you are coming to your interpretation as well.
The Druid comparison isn't fair, as that requires a Feat merely to gain access to another Order, and then additional Feats to gain any benefit from that.
This is a single Feat. That's an extremely low cost of entry to get a second benefit from a Class choice.
At this point, I would say that the Feat needs to be clarified as to the intent.
Aratorin wrote: voideternal wrote: Aratorin wrote: I don't think that's what Manifold Edge does. I don't see anything that says you get both benefits. It basically lets you swap out your normal Edge for a different one, with the sacrifice of the temporary Edge being weaker.
So, like if you're fighting an enemy that's immune to Precision Damage, you switch to Flurry instead, as the base Flurry Edge is better than getting no benefit from your Precision Edge.
If it gave you both, it would be extremely OP.
I don't see why you would lose your normal Edge. Nothing in the description of Manifold Edge says you lose your normal edge. It says "other than", not "in addition to". I never really thought of this Feat as unclear, but I can understand how you are coming to your interpretation as well.
The Druid comparison isn't fair, as that requires a Feat merely to gain access to another Order, and then additional Feats to gain any benefit from that.
This is a single Feat. That's an extremely low cost of entry to get a second benefit from a Class choice.
At this point, I would say that the Feat needs to be clarified as to the intent.
It's true, the Druid indeed doesn't grants you full benefits until later on, but you're getting access to it at second level, while we're talking about an 18th level feat that's competing with Impossible Flurry/Volley that pretty much breaks the action economy (lots of attacks at very small penalties) or Perfect Shot (that isn't as good as the others because its very feast or famine, but guaranteed maximum damage sure is attractive). So I think the feat could be just a dip in another Edge without sacrificing your Masterful hunter feature, it's not as cool as the other options but at least is a solid choice that fits more character concepts.
By that point other classes are doing even crazier things as well, so it doesn't feel so above the curve.
Manifold Edge says "if you do". Feats giving only benefits don't use such words, so it's clear you don't gain Masterful Hunter at all.
And being able to cumulate 2 edges changing the second one in real time is clearly a case of "too good to be true". I'm pretty sure the intent is just to replace your edge by another one.
Aratorin wrote: It says "other than", not "in addition to". I never really thought of this Feat as unclear, but I can understand how you are coming to your interpretation as well.
...
My understanding of "other than" was to prevent precision edge rangers from doubling up on precision damage with Manifold Edge.
Superbidi wrote: Manifold Edge says "if you do". Feats giving only benefits don't use such words, so it's clear you don't gain Masterful Hunter at all.
And being able to cumulate 2 edges changing the second one in real time is clearly a case of "too good to be true". I'm pretty sure the intent is just to replace your edge by another one.
Makes sense. To clarify, you mean, replace the ranger's current Masterful Hunter benefit with a different normal edge? The edges are all upside and no downside, so if a ranger could gain an edge without cost, there's no reason to not gain the edge. I guess then the feat's wording that implies options refers to the option of, keep the Masterful Hunter benefit or trade it out for another Hunter's Edge.
Edit: This is a slight derail that I admit I contributed to. Thus, it sounds hypocritical for me to say this, but as a reminder, the original question is whether manifold edge can be shared.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
SuperBidi wrote: And being able to cumulate 2 edges changing the second one in real time is clearly a case of "too good to be true". I'm pretty sure the intent is just to replace your edge by another one. On the other hand, our interpretation of the feat is teetering pretty close to "too bad to be true" imo.
Especially considering this is a level 18 feat and it's competing against stuff like permanent concealment and the big three action damage attacks (which are still better for raw damage output than even the most overpowered interpretation of manifold edge from this thread).
voideternal wrote: Thus, it sounds hypocritical for me to say this, but as a reminder, the original question is whether manifold edge can be shared. Yeah, I'm just not sure there's much more to be said on that topic, especially when people can't even agree on what the ability does in the first place.
Squiggit wrote: SuperBidi wrote: And being able to cumulate 2 edges changing the second one in real time is clearly a case of "too good to be true". I'm pretty sure the intent is just to replace your edge by another one. On the other hand, our interpretation of the feat is teetering pretty close to "too bad to be true" imo.
Especially considering this is a level 18 feat and it's competing against stuff like permanent concealment and the big three action damage attacks (which are still better for raw damage output than even the most overpowered interpretation of manifold edge from this thread). I disagree, but it's a matter of opinion. I also think the efficiency of Manifold Edge varies depending on your Edge. Precision rangers can switch to Flurry against Precision immune/resistant enemies. And Outwit is always very nice outside combat. And there'll be soon a fourth option. So, for me, it's not incredible, but on par with the other feats.
Tricky, could be read either way regarding manifold. Personally I am leaning towards it being a replacement rather than an addition, I expect it looking a little unimpressive is more because we have a smaller selection of edges atm where in the future it will continue to grow and be a solid flexible feat option (and as usual, the more flexible something is the less likely it is going to be blowing people away with raw immediate power). This doesn't contradict manifold either, "ranger of many kinds" doesn't necessarily suggest "ranger of multiple kinds at once".
Share Prey, I would be leaning towards a suspected RAI being that it shares whatever your current edge is and not benefit from masterful hunter upgrades. RAW it seems to be that they benefit from whatever the current hunt prey benefits are (including any masterful hunter improvements) and what your level 1 hunters edge choice was, unaffected by manifold.
Animal companion, seems to just outright share whatever you have benefits wise regardless, including masterful hunter and manifold.
Reminds me of when I saw the barbarian's share rage feat.
The Gleeful Grognard wrote: ...
Animal companion, seems to just outright share whatever you have benefits wise regardless, including masterful hunter and manifold.
...
I'm seeing this false statement a few times in this thread, and though it isn't really related with the original question, I think I should clarify this mistake for the benefit of those researching PF2 Rangers:
Masterful Companion wrote: Masterful Companion, Feat 18
Ranger
Source Core Rulebook pg. 177
Prerequisites masterful hunter, Animal Companion
Your animal companion shares your incredible hunting skills, allowing it to take down your shared prey with ease. When you Hunt Prey, your animal companion gains the masterful hunter benefit associated with your hunter’s edge, rather than just your original hunter’s edge benefit.
The existence of Masterful Companion feat implies the animal companion by default doesn't gain Masterful Hunter.
I think this is pretty straightforward.
1. When you Hunt Prey, you pick one of the three Edges and that is the only Edge you get for that Hunt Prey
2. If you pick an Edge that is not your original, then you do not benefit form Masterful Hunter. Conversely, if you pick the your original Edge for that Prey, you keep Mstful Hunter for that Prey.
What's confusing?
3. It seems that you could theoretically choose a different Edge each time you use Hunt Prey.
As Aratorin points out, "other than" tells us that you are not getting the extra Edge "in addition to" your 1st level choice.
As others have pointed out, I think the idea is that it allows a Ranger to gain some more flexibility and experience other other Edges.
I see there is some attempt to compare this to a Druid ability. I have not read through that.
Then it's a bad feat. You're using hunting prey in combat most of the time and when is the best moment for you to choose a weaker second choice? Probably never. If you're a Flurry ranger, trading away your superior accuracy for an extra 1d8~3d8 in a single attack doesn't look like an attractive option AT ALL, specially because you're also trading away your Masterful Hunter benefit.
If you really wanted that other Edge, then you would've picked it to begin with. Talk about an absolute let down, huh? From my initial interpretation that made it an attractive choice to it being an straight downgrade to your chosen playstyle. Yuck.
Lightning Raven wrote: Then it's a bad feat. You're using hunting prey in combat most of the time and when is the best moment for you to choose a weaker second choice? Probably never. If you're a Flurry ranger, trading away your superior accuracy for an extra 1d8~3d8 in a single attack doesn't look like an attractive option AT ALL, specially because you're also trading away your Masterful Hunter benefit.
If you really wanted that other Edge, then you would've picked it to begin with. Talk about an absolute let down, huh? From my initial interpretation that made it an attractive choice to it being an straight downgrade to your chosen playstyle. Yuck.
It is really Edge dependent. Flurry Rangers have few incentive in taking other Edges in combat, but Precision and Outwit Rangers have.
SuperBidi wrote: It is really Edge dependent. Flurry Rangers have few incentive in taking other Edges in combat, but Precision and Outwit Rangers have. In the hypothetical assumption that Manifold Edge completely replaces all of the ranger's edge benefits, I think there definitely are scenarios for all edges to benefit from Manifold Edge.
Flurry can be weak against an enemy that has a lot of action denial (slow, stun, prone, high movement, etc), and switching to precision could help the ranger.
Precision can, as pointed out, be resisted. Even at level 18, monsters like the Shoggoth resist precision.
Outwit provides very little offensive capability so switching to any of the other two edges can be situationally beneficial when offense is needed... except in the case of outwit, the base edge benefit is kind of lackluster, and if the ranger is really swapping it out often, it's probably better for the ranger to outright retrain out of outwit (and also out of manifold edge) to a separate edge.
However, in my opinion, the existence of these cases doesn't validate the underpowered interpretation of Manifold Edge. The reason being that the benefit for each of the three edges are very generic, and they help in the vast majority of battles. Very few enemies resist precision. Very few enemies deny a lot of actions (and even if they do, they might deny some other characters' actions instead of the ranger). Outwit might be the outlier here, but that says more about the weakness of outwit relative to the other edges and is best solved via retraining. All things considered, the opportunity cost the ranger is paying to get the underpowered interpretation of Manifold Edge is too high to be reasonable.
Well, here's what this feat does:
You are choosing at level 18 any of your 1st features that was your second option to begin with, on top of that none of your choices significantly alter anything, they just enhance particular playstyles that you weren't particularly interested anyway.
Honestly, this feat may become good in the future when you have many Edges to choose from, but right now it's underwhelming to say that least. I particularly don't feel inclined to ever pick it when the other options were already cooler and much more attractive.
Honestly, other than Impossible Flurry for a TWF, all of the Level 18 Ranger Feats are fairly unimpressive.
Impossible Volley sounds cool at first, but it requires you to use a Volley Weapon, which has its own drawbacks, and its unlikely that you'll ever get more than 2, maybe 3 enemies within the burst.
Masterful Companion is decent, but AC Attack bonuses don't scale well, so it's unlikely to make much difference.
Perfect Shot requires you to use a crossbow.
Shadow Hunter is just a much worse version of Legendary Sneak.
My Ranger will likely take Greater Distracting Shot at 18, as I can't fit it in any earlier, or possibly Shared Prey to enable Triple Threat.
I'm with Anatorin on this one. I find Manifold Edge to be on par with the other feats. If it was allowing you to cumulate Precision + Flurry at the cost of Masterful Hunter (which is great for Flurry but half useless for Precision) it would be a no-brainer to me.
And everyone forgets the out of combat use of Outwit, which is a +2 circumstance bonus to Intimidation, Stealth, Recall Knowledge and Deception.
For me, it's one of the most solid choice at level 18, but I like circumstance bonuses to skills a lot.
Although choose 18th level feat just to replace your basic edge and give up master hunter just to replace with another basic edge seems extremly weak for that feat level.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Lightning Raven wrote: Then it's a bad feat. You can make that argument about the vast majority of feats for the Ranger if not other classes as well.
Quote: You're using hunting prey in combat most of the time and when is the best moment for you to choose a weaker second choice? Your opinion doesn't seem to be based on any in-game experience or valid analysis. There are LOTS of times I would like to swap between Precision and Flurry. Especially if I can do that every time I elect to Hunt Prey.
Quote: Probably never. If you're a Flurry ranger, trading away your superior accuracy for an extra 1d8~3d8 in a single attack doesn't look like an attractive option AT ALL, specially because you're also trading away your Masterful Hunter benefit. If you actually look through the other combat feats there are several that seem way better for Precision or preclude lots of attacks. And running a TWF Flurry companion Ranger, the ability to switch to Precision would provide me with more opportunities to leverage my companion.
Quote: If you really wanted that other Edge, then you would've picked it to begin with. Talk about an absolute let down, huh? Presumably Precision and Flurry were designed to provide the same level of efficacy, just under different circumstances. So the idea that people choose one and clearly wouldn't value the benefits of the other isn't credible.
Quote: From my initial interpretation that made it an attractive choice to it being an straight downgrade to your chosen playstyle. Yuck. Well, I think that each person will have to make that decision after 17 levels of playing with one playstyle or the other.
But more to the point, I agree with the others that evlaluate ME as in the same ballpark of benefit as the majority of other feats. I don't find any single feat totally compelling besides Twin Takedown/Hunted Shot as those two were clearly intended to be the base attack for probably all non-crossbow rangers.
N N 959 wrote: If you actually look through the other combat feats there are several that seem way better for Precision or preclude lots of attacks. And running a TWF Flurry companion Ranger, the ability to switch to Precision would provide me with more opportunities to leverage my companion. Just my two cents, but flurry has imo the worst synergy with animal companion. Companions require start-of-round adjacency to multi-attack and both their base to-hit and damage is not respectable enough to justify investing accuracy on the 2nd strike. Additionally, flurry rangers generally want to keep all their actions to themselves to make the most out of flurry.
Yes, a TWF flurry companion ranger can benefit from Manifold Edge into precision, but that's because the build's concept is suspect to begin with. At that point, a single-hit precision companion ranger without Manifold Edge is a cleaner build.
voideternal wrote: Just my two cents, but flurry has imo the worst synergy with animal companion. Yes, it certainly feels that way at low level. But I'm exploring it to see how it actually plays out. Plus, in several build exploration sessions, the alternative feats aren't a whole lot more compelling.
voideternal wrote: N N 959 wrote: If you actually look through the other combat feats there are several that seem way better for Precision or preclude lots of attacks. And running a TWF Flurry companion Ranger, the ability to switch to Precision would provide me with more opportunities to leverage my companion. Just my two cents, but flurry has imo the worst synergy with animal companion. Companions require start-of-round adjacency to multi-attack and both their base to-hit and damage is not respectable enough to justify investing accuracy on the 2nd strike. Additionally, flurry rangers generally want to keep all their actions to themselves to make the most out of flurry.
Yes, a TWF flurry companion ranger can benefit from Manifold Edge into precision, but that's because the build's concept is suspect to begin with. At that point, a single-hit precision companion ranger without Manifold Edge is a cleaner build. I strongly disagree with this. A Bear Companion essentially gives a TWF Flurry Ranger an ability that says:
[1 Action]
Make your Prey Flat Footed and your Strikes against your Prey do an additional 1D8 Slashing Damage.
That's a FANTASTIC ability for someone who's sole goal is to hit as often as possible.
Once it gets large enough to ride, it essentially gives you a 70 Foot Stride.
I think the jury is still out on how to optimize a companion. At higher levels, the creatures have more powerful attacks and their viability as straight up attacking has yet to be determined. Mature Companions get two damage dice, so a Bear or Dromeo is doing 2d8 and 2d6, not including STR bonuses. That seems like a better outcome than having it Support for what is typically just another 2d8 combined.
I can say that at low levels, I've had encounters where I didn't even get to issue a command to the animal. Non-bosses don't last long against martial parties.
Aratorin wrote: I strongly disagree with this. A Bear Companion essentially gives a TWF Flurry Ranger an ability that says:
[1 Action]
Make your Prey Flat Footed and your Strikes against your Prey do an additional 1D8 Slashing Damage.
That's a FANTASTIC ability for someone who's sole goal is to hit as often as possible.
Once it gets large enough to ride, it essentially gives you a 70 Foot Stride.
I overlooked bear. I think you have a point, but I'll also point out that if the ranger rides the bear, the ranger doesn't get the slashing damage bonus.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Quote: Presumably Precision and Flurry were designed to provide the same level of efficacy, just under different circumstances. So the idea that people choose one and clearly wouldn't value the benefits of the other isn't credible. Yeah, but you're not trading out precision and flurry. You're trading out the upgraded version of precision for the level 1 version of flurry (or vice versa).
Which is sometimes handy if you're fighting a specific kind of enemy but "better than nothing in some really niche situations" is pretty terrible for an endgame option.
Squiggit wrote: Yeah, but you're not trading out precision and flurry. You're trading out the upgraded version of precision for the level 1 version of flurry (or vice versa).
Which is sometimes handy if you're fighting a specific kind of enemy but "better than nothing in some really niche situations" is pretty terrible for an endgame option.
That argument doesn't really work here. 1) "better than nothing" is not a quantification, it's more like an ad hominem. And...quantitatively seems demonstrably wrong; 2) There are far worse feats at that level.
If you're Flurry and you switch to Precision, at level 19, you're adding 3d8 to your attack. If you're using Double Prey, your can split your attacks and do an extra 6d8 that round. If you've got a companion, you're also getting another 3d8. If you're using Shared Prey, you're giving a an Ally another 3d8 on their best attack. So if all three of you crit, you could be adding as much as 18d8 of damage in a single round, or just 9d8 if everyone hits without crit'ing. I can't agree that "better than nothing" is an accurate description.
Now, if you've got none of those options, then you may not be set up to leverage Manifold Edge, and so it is with many of these feats. They are more useful to some builds than others. But you're also overlooking the fact that until lvl 18 an Outwit Ranger has most likely been sucking eggs in combat (barring some multi-class contortions). So getting ME, even at 18 is probably an extremely welcomed option.
Manifold Edge unequivocally makes a Ranger more robust in and out of combat. Whether that level of being robust is of value to any individual player is something I need not answer. For me, I think ME is way better than something like To the Ends of the Earth, which, imo, is probably one of the most worthless feats in all creation, for all kinds of reasons.
And as you point out, there are a bunch of totally underwhelming feats for Rangers if you consider them in isolation. In fact, a feat like Snap Shot will do absolutely nothing for you if you don't take Disrupt Prey or acquire a melee strike reaction. So build choice is part of how Paizo is valuing feats.
N N 959 wrote: That argument doesn't really work here. 1) "better than nothing" is not a quantification, it's more like an ad hominem. And...quantitatively seems demonstrably wrong; 2) There are far worse feats at that level.
If you're Flurry and you switch to Precision, at level 19, you're adding 3d8 to your attack. If you're using Double Prey, your can split your attacks and do an extra 6d8 that round. If you've got a companion, you're also getting another 3d8. If you're using Shared Prey, you're giving a an Ally another 3d8 on their best attack. So if all three of you crit, you could be adding as much as 18d8 of damage in a single round, or just 9d8 if everyone hits without crit'ing. I can't agree that "better than nothing" is an accurate description.
Those look like some pretty impressive numbers for those who doubt the power bump of a fully shared precision edge!
I think that Squiggit might have gone overboard on the hyperbole, but I think the crux of Squiggit's argument is more in the "some really niche situations" part of the argument. At the end of the day, if a ranger is relying on the weak interpretation of ME to fix the edge often in combat, it's more a sign that the ranger should retrain the edge.
voideternal wrote: , but I think the crux of Squiggit's argument is more in the "some really niche situations" part of the argument. I don't see any analysis by Squiggit that established the benefit of switching between Edges is "niche." While some builds will clearly benefit more, there's nothing that there isn't some wide-spectrum benefit of choosing the non-MH edges on a Prey by Prey basis.
Quote: At the end of the day, if a ranger is relying on the weak interpretation of ME to fix the edge often in combat, it's more a sign that the ranger should retrain the edge. I find that statement some what comical. For 16 levels, all Rangers have the "weak" version of their Edge. Getting the MstfHunter version doesn't invalidate the non-MH version in situations where your chosen Edge is clearly sup-optimal or possibly ineffective.
As a low level Flurry Ranger, I've already realized that at the start of the fight, Precision is generally much better. If I could start with Precision and then switch to Flurry on harder targets or when I'm spending less actions getting into position, my Ranger would be doing much more damage. There are other factors like the AC of the target and the buffs I'm getting from party members that can significantly alter the optimal tactical strategy.
The bottom line here is that none of us has the data or the experience to determine how good or mediocre ME truly is at that level. But yes, if you're expectation was that you'd be getting both Edges at the same time, then you're having to lower your expectations.
N N 959 wrote: I find that statement some what comical. For 16 levels, all Rangers have the "weak" version of their Edge. Getting the MstfHunter version doesn't invalidate the non-MH version in situations where your chosen Edge is clearly sup-optimal or possibly ineffective.
As a low level Flurry Ranger, I've already realized that at the start of the fight, Precision is generally much better. If I could start with Precision and then switch to Flurry on harder targets or when I'm spending less actions getting into position, my Ranger would be doing much more damage. There are other factors like the AC of the target and the buffs I'm getting from party members that can significantly alter the optimal tactical strategy.
The bottom line here is that none of us has the data or the experience to determine how good or mediocre ME truly is at that level. But yes, if you're expectation was that you'd be getting both Edges at the same time, then you're having to lower your expectations.
What I'm saying is that "situations where your chosen Edge is clearly sup-optimal or possibly ineffective" is rare at level 18. You're citing two factors that affect edge choice here:
1) Accuracy issues
2) Action economy due to positioning
Regarding 1), this affects precision and flurry close to equal because both rely on attack rolls that can benefit from criticals. The only difference is variance, where precision is swingier and might have no-hit bad rounds and critical-hit good rounds, whereas flurry will hit a lot and crit a bit with high accuracy, or hit just a few times with low accuracy. In other words, regardless of whether you have trouble hitting or not, both edges will be functional.
Point 2) I think is a stronger argument, because I think a strong determining factor of which of the two edges dish out more damage directly relates to how many attacks the ranger is making in the round. However, at level 18, spellcasters can more easily prepare multiple castings of support spells like haste (and if that's not enough, there's always trick magic item and wands), lessening the positioning action economy pinch. Also, you mention switching edges mid-fight, but that requires the ranger to hunt prey again, which only contributes to said action economy loss. If action economy issues are lessened at level 18 and both flurry and precision is good, why not instead choose some other feat than the weak interpretation of Manifold Edge?
There's also technically the argument that switching edges loses not just the masterful hunter benefit, but all the build choices that the ranger used for 16 levels that support only the original edge. But that argument is hard to dissect because there's so many variables, and as you did mention, a number of choices like animal companion[bear] work with both edges.
voideternal wrote: What I'm saying is that "situations where your chosen Edge is clearly sup-optimal or possibly ineffective" is rare at level 18. At low levels, the frequency where I only get one or two attacks on a creature before it croaks is not rare, it's common. I can't speak for what happens at lvl 18. I don't think anyone participating in this discussion has much experience at that level.
Quote: You're citing two factors that affect edge choice here:
1) Accuracy issues
2) Action economy due to positioning
Regarding 1), this affects precision and flurry close to equal because both rely on attack rolls that can benefit from criticals. The only difference is variance, where precision is swingier and might have no-hit bad rounds and critical-hit good rounds, whereas flurry will hit a lot and crit a bit with high accuracy, or hit just a few times with low accuracy. In other words, regardless of whether you have trouble hitting or not, both edges will be functional.
I'm not certain to what degree accuracy affects one or the other more. At higher levels, getting a second or third hit with a weapon deals 3d8 or more per hit can quickly add up. If you're getting sufficient party boosts, then you're crit'ting instead of just merely hitting. Again, it's hard to know without actual data how those two Edges work out in the end game.
Quote: Also, you mention switching edges mid-fight, but that requires the ranger to hunt prey again, which only contributes to said action economy loss. If action economy issues are lessened at level 18 and both flurry and precision is good, why not instead choose some other feat than the weak interpretation of Manifold Edge? At level 19, you can Hunt Prey as a Free action. So I would think that shifts the balance in favor of Flurry, but I don't have actual data to back that up. If I'm correct, that still doesn't eliminate scenarios where your Prey simply doesn't last long enough for you to get in to maximize attacks. I also have no data on how the game attacks character action economy at higher levels. I don't know to what extent creatures, spells, hazards, impose effects robbing you of actions. If you're fighting in a situation where you have to constantly move or are under Slowed effects, then being able to switch to Precision would be a boost. Conversely, if you're getting Hasted, Flurry might seem far more effective.
Quote: But that argument is hard to dissect because there's so many variables, and as you did mention, a number of feats like animal companion[bear] work with both edges. Agreed. Is Penetrating shot better for Flurry or Precision? Or is the difference negligible? Is Double Prey better for Precision or Flurry?
The other thing you're overlooking is that some Feats seem to clearly favor one Edge, but are still useful to both. Targeting Shot seems to favor Precision, but that doesn't mean you are automatically not going to take it if you use Flurry. If you do take it, something like ME allows you to leverage it more.
And again, ME may be more of a concession to an Outwit Ranger and not necessarily intended for Precision or Flurry members, in which case it's a arguably a great feat. But I don't know, at this point.
.
Recent threads in Rules Discussion
|
