Is the Suggestion spell not useful in combat anymore?

[devilbunny]

About to run the Xanesha fight next session, and just wanted some clarification on how to use suggestion in 2e in combat due to the new wording, specifically this part, "You suggest a course of action to the target, which must be phrased in such a way as to seem like a logical course of action to the target and can't be self-destructive or obviously against the target's self-interest."

The latter portion of that statement seems to suggest that you can't ask the character to drop their weapon or take a hike back down the stairs in the clock tower you're fighting atop of due to the inherent conflict with the target's own self-interest of fighting beside their companions and keeping them safe (unless perhaps they're like evil or something, and motivated by selfishness). Even asking someone to close their eyes would run counter to their self-interest due to how much more likely you'll be hurt by not being able to see.

Any ideas?

[Matthew Downie]

It's not a major change. In PF1 the wording was "Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell." That was pretty vague, but abandoning your allies mid-battle sounds 'harmful' to me.

But something along the lines "I suggest you put down your weapon before you get hurt so we can talk this out," isn't obviously against the target's self-interest. It could save their life.

Putting a lie in your wording might also help, since presumably failing to save against the spell means you're going to be easily fooled.
"I suggest you surrender, if you don't want my colleagues to execute your loved ones."
"I suggest you leave this room now if you don't want to get dragged in when the hell portal opens."
"I suggest you look out the window in the next room, if you want to see why continuing this battle is a bad idea."

[thenobledrake]

My only thought thus far (I admit, I'm tired and not putting much effort into it): suggestion and command are different spells for a reason.

This spell is more for non-combat applications, or for the application of a magically-enhanced attempt to talk your opponent out of a fight.

[Ascalaphus]

I think Suggestion has been interpreted wildly differently by writers over the previous years, I've seen a lot of combat applications that didn't seem like "reasonable suggestions" to me at all.

[Lanathar]

I think you are being incredibly generous on your interpretation of the PCs "self interest".

It is not usually in anyone's self interest to carry on a fight with a horrible monster, adventurer or not.

Your comment on leaving their party is just wrong. It is not in their direct self interest to stand by their party. Selfishness has nothing to do with this. The spell is targeting the inherent selfishness within everyone in my view

Asking them to leave the tower is (in my view) a completely reasonable use of the spell

You are mixing up "interests" and "self interest".

Dropping a weapon directly is probably not a reasonable one unless you add in more about the consequences

[Castilliano]

If over-interpreted, one could determine that the only valid Suggestions are those which align with actions they were already intending to make.
That's silly, making the spell just as useless outside of combat.

Obvious self-interest shouldn't have multiple layers of reasoning because then it's not obvious and often beyond just one's self.
And as shown above, there are many useful Suggestions that seem like good ideas, and might actually be good ideas if the caster is sincere.

[pad300]

Suggestion: "Your only hope of living through this mess is to surrender and cooperate fully with your captors".

Assuming their self interest includes wanting to be alive afterwards (and if you want to metagame, how PC vs non-PC fights tend to end up)...