Again, not being snarky, but do you find that rolling 6 times for 1 result, which almost guarantees a failure, adds anything to the game?
That is a place where Assurance would really shine. You might not be able to make the higher DC for enhanced healing, but you could guarantee quite a bit of healing on your party in an hours time.
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That is a place where Assurance would really shine. You might not be able to make the higher DC for enhanced healing, but you could guarantee quite a bit of healing on your party in an hours time.Again, not being snarky, but do you find that rolling 6 times for 1 result, which almost guarantees a failure, adds anything to the game?
Yep!
But the really good healer will also have Continual Healing with that Assurance so they get the 6 successes worth of healing that Aratroin is calling for.|
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You're misunderstanding my point. Every new Treat Wounds action should, by your argument, create a new Activity that can last an hour. So every ten minutes after the first hour, you're completing another hour tied to a subsequent Treat Wounds action.No. You have to complete the Activity before getting to double, and the Activity has to last an hour or more.If I understand Aratorin's viewpoint correctly, this is how the hour-long use option works: I Treat Wounds once, succeed, and then keep making Treat Wounds rolls as separate "subordinate Actions" for the next 50 minutes, at which point I go back and double all the healing I've done for the last hour.
So, say I've got Assurance and failure's nothing to worry about. I Treat Wounds, autosucceed, and cure 4 hp. I keep going, and over the next five rolls I get 6 hp, 8 hp, 10 hp, 12 hp, and 14 hp, for a total of 54 hp healed, at which point everything retroactively doubles and I have actually healed 108 hp.
And then I keep going.
After all, every Treat Wounds action is its own separate Action, right? Doesn't that mean the 60 minute timer is included in each action as well? I haven't failed any rolls, so I should still be able to keep on truckin'! I retroactively double again! And then 10 minutes later, again! Man, surgery is easy! Wheeeeee!
No. I'm really not sure how else to explain it.
[activity]action, action, action,action,action,action[/activity]->double.
If you start a new activity after that, it's a completely separate activity. You would have to spend another hour to double again.
Except you can't separate the actions out like that. The Subordinate Actions rules state that "This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but is modified in any ways listed in the larger action. For example, an activity that tells you to Stride up to half your Speed alters the normal distance you can move in a Stride. The Stride would still have the move trait, would still trigger reactions that occur based on movement, and so on."
One of the effects of Treat Wounds is "If you succeed at your check, you can continue treating the target to grant additional healing. If you treat them for a total of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds." Nothing in that says, "but only the first time in an hour you do it." So if there are subordinate Treat Wounds actions happening, then each time you do it you're starting another clock.
Activities aren't supposed to include recursiveness, but if your argument is correct, this one does.
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If that's the intent, it was a waste of ink to even print the option.
Keep in mind that the Treat Wounds question disappears as the characters get higher level. But the developers have to write the rules for all levels, including 1st level. I think this part of the rule is here for the 1-3 level healers to help their party recover more quickly.
Except you can't separate the actions out like that. The Subordinate Actions rules state that "This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but is modified in any ways listed in the larger action. For example, an activity that tells you to Stride up to half your Speed alters the normal distance you can move in a Stride....You're misunderstanding my point. Every new Treat Wounds action should, by your argument, create a new Activity that can last an hour. So every ten minutes after the first hour, you're completing another hour tied to a subsequent Treat Wounds action.No. You have to complete the Activity before getting to double, and the Activity has to last an hour or more.If I understand Aratorin's viewpoint correctly, this is how the hour-long use option works: I Treat Wounds once, succeed, and then keep making Treat Wounds rolls as separate "subordinate Actions" for the next 50 minutes, at which point I go back and double all the healing I've done for the last hour.
So, say I've got Assurance and failure's nothing to worry about. I Treat Wounds, autosucceed, and cure 4 hp. I keep going, and over the next five rolls I get 6 hp, 8 hp, 10 hp, 12 hp, and 14 hp, for a total of 54 hp healed, at which point everything retroactively doubles and I have actually healed 108 hp.
And then I keep going.
After all, every Treat Wounds action is its own separate Action, right? Doesn't that mean the 60 minute timer is included in each action as well? I haven't failed any rolls, so I should still be able to keep on truckin'! I retroactively double again! And then 10 minutes later, again! Man, surgery is easy! Wheeeeee!
No. I'm really not sure how else to explain it.
[activity]action, action, action,action,action,action[/activity]->double.
If you start a new activity after that, it's a completely separate activity. You would have to spend another hour to double again.
You are still failing to understand what I'm saying.
Nobody agrees with me. That's fine. You don't need to keep drawing false conclusions from what I am saying to try to make me look bad.
There is nothing productive to be gained from this thread.
Can it please be locked so we can move on?
as the only benefit of the feat in Aratorin's view is if you fail a Treat Wounds check.
Well, no. It'd also benefit you if you can't treat someone for the full hour for some reason.
If you get ambushed after 20 minutes and fight some enemies, someone without CR would still have to wait 40 minutes before they could start treating that person again.
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Can it please be locked so we can move on?I have asked for this in threads I have created but the admins never did lock it. I just stopped posting.
It is never fun when nobody agrees with you. I have be in that spot on these boards a few times.
At least you haven't had the traumatic experience of Mark Seifter introducing you at GenCon as "that 10 foot pit guy" =\
If Aratorin was saying you need to roll 6 times, but only double the effective HP of one roll (and don't gain any HP from the additional rolls, they're just to determine that you don't fail for treating for an hour) then I'd say I think he's rolling too many times, but that interpretation isn't increasing healing.
But the way I'd understood his statements is "he gets to make six checks, and assuming he doesn't fail any of them, he gets to heal the patient six times and double the total healing after an hour".
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Like most everyone else here, I disagree with Aratorin's view that "treat" means a single activity in which a number of skill checks can be made within time constraints (specifically, six checks within an hour to Treat Wounds, with a doubling clause contingent upon consecutive successes).
Most folks here believe instead that "treat" means to make a single check (specifically, with a doubling clause if 50 minutes added time is applied).
For what it's worth, even as I disagree, Aratorin's perspective can be seen as more "heroic" as it involves less sitting around for hours!
The only counterpoint to that might be: it can be seen as more "heroic" if the PCs are willing to proceed after a short rest even if they aren't back to "full" hit points.
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Treat wounds is a single check and 10 minutes of treatment that results in healing on success and 1 hour immunity from further treat wounds regardless of result.
You may choose to extend this time out to 1 hour intead of 10 minutes and restore twice the amount of HP originally recovered.
Sadly this doesn't seem to interact or stack with continual healing in any way. It does however work in conjunction with ward medic.
I can see how someone could try and spin reading it as "i can heal six times in a row and double it after an hour" but only if they ignore the original restriction. And even then it is a bit of a stretch even then, a "it could technically be read this way" rather than "this is what makes sense with what the rest of the ability, feats and balance of the game suggests".
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Nobody would ever do that. Why would I waste an hour treating one patient, when I could treat 6 patients once, and the original patient twice, in roughly the same amount of time, with roughly the same result for the first patient?
If that's the intent, it was a waste of ink to even print the option.
You don't have to roll for it, so there are a few reasons:
You critically succeeded.You're worried about failing (perhaps you're in one of the suggested situations where your GM has raised the DC).
There's only one patient.
(That last one is unrelated to not needing to roll.)
I can see how someone could try and spin reading it as "i can heal six times in a row and double it after an hour" but only if they ignore the original restriction.
No, I can understand Aratorin's reading. He's reading "you can continue treating the target" as overriding the immunity. I was also going to object that this can't be the intended interpretation as that would render the immunity irrelevant, but that isn't quite true: it still matters in the event of a failure or an interruption.
I can parse it this way, but it's not the obvious way to read it. Which is one of several reasons I can't believe it's the intended reading.
I can see how someone could try and spin reading it as "i can heal six times in a row and double it after an hour" but only if they ignore the original restriction.No, I can understand Aratorin's reading. He's reading "you can continue treating the target" as overriding the immunity. I was also going to object that this can't be the intended interpretation as that would render the immunity irrelevant, but that isn't quite true: it still matters in the event of a failure or an interruption.
I can parse it this way, but it's not the obvious way to read it. Which is one of several reasons I can't believe it's the intended reading.
Which would be ignoring the original restriction. An immunity of 1 hour that doesn't apply within that hour is just kinda... It removes the purpose of continual healing, removes the purpose of there being a 1 hour immunity to it in the first place and is quite clearly reading it to a rather large advantage towards a player both things considered.
As I said, I can see how someone can read it that way technically, but it is a stretch to think that this is anywhere near RAI given the other evidence.
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Count me in the camp where its only one check, the initial one. If you succeed and the target isn't fully healed, you can extend your treatment to an hour and simply double the result. No additional checks necessary. If you want to make checks every ten minutes, you need Continual Recovery.
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As my degree is in the interpretation of translations of ancient texts... I have a very fond place in my heart for the much maligned rules lawyer. After all, we are all rules lawyers to one degree or another, as we all read the rules and must make of them what we will - and then must play together with others who may or may not read the same text the same way.
All of that to say, this thread has been a fascinating read! Quite the roller coaster.
At first I was amazed that there was another interpretation of Treat Wounds, as everybody in the groups I play with read it the common way.
Then I thought, well boy, the opposition viewpoint has made some good points. Have I been shortchanging my players?
Then I went back to "no, no, it can't be, it would be too strong, right?"
Then the opposition view broke it down in a very logical way and I thought to myself "well... sure is a convincing argument..."
In the end, tough, I've decided to keep the common view at my table, for these reasons:
1) The argument about the opposition view's method healing 228% of a doughty dwarf's HP in an hour shows that the opposition view is far, far too powerful. The language about doubling HP restored would not be needed if the full hour's worth of Treating restores pretty near 100% of the HP needed in the first place. As I was reading, I was planning on doing the math myself and posting that as a response, but I was beat to the punch.
2) The Keep It Simple principle is strong in PF2, and making a long series of rolls just seems to go counter to the ethos of PF2. The developers have tried to reduce tracking/record keeping across the board, and the opposition view requires me to keep track of the results of the individual rolls so that I can double it if I reach the 60 minute mark
3) I'm taking other posters words as truth which can sometimes be perilous, but the evidence noted from the actual play involving the developers where Treat Wounds works according to the common interpretation is pretty strong evidence.
I don't buy the argument that Continual Recovery becomes redundant - after all if you're rolling repeatedly your chance of failure also goes up, and Continual Recovery would allow you to keep on keeping on without a stop.
Still... it's a good thread, even if tempers got hot. It was very good of both sides to force the nuance of the positions out of the other side.
And, perhaps the biggest win for me (aside from a fascinating read), is that I had overlooked that you could double HP restored if you keep on treating the same patient. One of my groups in particular tends to get knocked about quite a bit and they have had to do the whole "ok we sit around for 50 minutes waiting to treat again" routine now and again - good to know that they can double initial HP gain during that time.
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I don't buy the argument that Continual Recovery becomes redundant - after all if you're rolling repeatedly your chance of failure also goes up, and Continual Recovery would allow you to keep on keeping on without a stop.
If Continual Recovery is baked in, you can use the feat you'd spend on it to get Assurance instead. Any 3rd level character with Assurance in Medicine never fails at the DC15 Treat Wounds check. With Expert at 6th level (Or trained at 8th), you can do the DC20 check.
If Continual Recovery is baked in, you can use the feat you'd spend on it to get Assurance instead. Any 3rd level character with Assurance in Medicine never fails at the DC15 Treat Wounds check. With Expert at 6th level (Or trained at 8th), you can do the DC20 check.
When you hit level 6+ with expert you are likely unable to crit fail anyway, even without assurance. Keep in mind it just says "continuing treating" not "continuing to successfully treat" so even with normal failures it is fine -laughs- (yes this is a silly misreading too, but not silly in context ;) )
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When you hit level 6+ with expert you are likely unable to crit fail anyway, even without assurance. Keep in mind it just says "continuing treating" not "continuing to successfully treat" so even with normal failures it is fine -laughs- (yes this is a silly misreading too, but not silly in context ;) )
If Continual Recovery is baked in, you can use the feat you'd spend on it to get Assurance instead. Any 3rd level character with Assurance in Medicine never fails at the DC15 Treat Wounds check. With Expert at 6th level (Or trained at 8th), you can do the DC20 check.
Nitpick: You can't attempt the DC20 check without Expert or higher proficiency, so Assurance grants a guaranteed success at level 6.
When you hit level 6+ with expert you are likely unable to crit fail anyway, even without assurance. Keep in mind it just says "continuing treating" not "continuing to successfully treat" so even with normal failures it is fine -laughs- (yes this is a silly misreading too, but not silly in context ;) )
When your associate is at dying 3, even a 5% chance to outright kill him during your revival attempt is a bit too high...
When you hit level 6+ with expert you are likely unable to crit fail anyway, even without assurance. Keep in mind it just says "continuing treating" not "continuing to successfully treat" so even with normal failures it is fine -laughs- (yes this is a silly misreading too, but not silly in context ;) )
If Continual Recovery is baked in, you can use the feat you'd spend on it to get Assurance instead. Any 3rd level character with Assurance in Medicine never fails at the DC15 Treat Wounds check. With Expert at 6th level (Or trained at 8th), you can do the DC20 check.Nitpick: You can't attempt the DC20 check without Expert or higher proficiency, so Assurance grants a guaranteed success at level 6.
When you hit level 6+ with expert you are likely unable to crit fail anyway, even without assurance. Keep in mind it just says "continuing treating" not "continuing to successfully treat" so even with normal failures it is fine -laughs- (yes this is a silly misreading too, but not silly in context ;) )When your associate is at dying 3, even a 5% chance to outright kill him during your revival attempt is a bit too high...
Hmmmm? if someone is dying you don't use treat wounds as it takes 10 minutes before they gain HP and you are relying on them succeeding dying saves at that point.
And if you have a +14 or higher in medicine I am saying that you cannot kill people with DC15 checks as there is no way to get a critical failure on treat wounds checks (well unless you have a circumstance penalty or something similar). Also remember that after level 3 gaining expanded healers tools is easy enough for that extra +1 item bonus so anyone with expert and a +3 wisdom modifier is sitting at +14 by level 6.
Just saying that while Assurance is nice, it isn't a necessary feat for permanent guaranteed healing chains if people decide to read it as argued above (being able to ignore the 1 hour immunity as long as you continue to treat for up to an hour and doubling at the end).