Take cover and movment.


Rules Discussion


Hello, please help me understand how cover and the take cover action works in fluid combat. I have spent hours looking on these forms and search engines and can not find the answer.

My question, if on my turn I move behind a obstetrical, i.e. a boulder or round a corner and have cover from the enemy I get a +2 AC bonus I use my last action to 'Take cover' I now have a +4 AC greater cover. This lasts until I move attack or end my cover. So it is now the enemies turn who watched me walk behind the rock so knows I am there and they use a move action to walk around the rock, they can now see me and have line of sight. What happens to my cover bonus to AC as the effects for losing the greater cover bonus has not been meet.

The book explans cover well on a static basis but not whne movement and sequence of events are concerend.

I feel that if I didn't use the take cover action that I would not get any AC boost but because I used an action it is not fair that I lose this as it make it a complete waste of a action in 9/10 cases. Combat is a fluid sequence of events and not a your turn my turn encounter it just needs to be structured like that to play the game.

Regards.

For reference;

Core Rulebook (471) wrote:


TAKE COVER
BASIC ACTION

Requirements You are benefiting from cover, are near a feature that allows you to take cover, or are prone.
You press yourself against a wall or duck behind an obstacle to take better advantage of cover (page 477). If you would have standard cover, you instead gain greater cover, which provides a +4 circumstance bonus to AC; to Reflex saves against area effects; and to Stealth checks to Hide, Sneak, or otherwise avoid detection. Otherwise, you gain the benefits of standard cover (a +2 circumstance bonus instead). This lasts until you move from your current space, use an attack action, become unconscious, or end this effect as a free action.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I am pretty sure if the enemy moves to where there is no obstruction you'd just lose all cover. I think it is meant to be used for ranged combat, not a close quarters melee where the enemy easily close on you. It is the difference between Han Solo ducking behind some terrain during a hectic firefight and just cowering behind a a tree in a Jason movie.

If you assume all events are happening concurrently, then you're basically being chased by someone and decided to stop and let them catch up.


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Quote:
IF you would have standard cover, you instead gain greater cover.

"IF" is the word that causes you to lose your bonus.

Once the enemy repositions themselves so you no longer have cover from them, the 'if' clause is no longer true.

See the cover rules and diagrams on page 477 to help you determine if you have cover.

Having cover from an enemy at the end of your turn is not a guarantee that you'll have cover until your turn starts again.


Would it make a difference if it was a range attack or a melee attack?

An example I am thinking off;

Lets take the cover example on page 477 lets take Valeros of the table and say that Kyra started in that square, the ogre had their turn and moved into the position they are in next Merisiel takes two action then uses 'take cover'. Kyra makes and action then moves from Valeros's square to the square they are in in the picture and also uses the 'take cover' action. Ignore Seoni.

Now it is the Ogre's turn. If they remain there both Kyra & Merisiel have greater cover +4 AC. So the Ogre moves forward ten feet to be out of the alley. What happens to the cover bonuses?

Would Merisiel not position their self close to the building meaning the Ogre can only attack left handed making them harder to hit thus increasing Merisiel's AC (like in castle staircase, the spiral staircase in a castle would be designed to turn in a clockwise direction. This meant that those ascending the staircase would have their right hand (their sword arm) tight against the narrowest part of the stairs, close to the central pole. This made it almost impossible for the attacker to use their sword effectively. In contrast, those defending the castle had much more freedom of movement to strike downwards with their swords. Fun fact of the day)
And likewise if the Ogre throw a spear that Kyra would they not push themselves tight to the wall to make a small as possible target for the ranged attack.

I feel that this would mean that the action spent on protecting themselves with the take cover was not so easily lost.

CrystalSeas wrote:
Quote:
IFyou would have standard cover, you instead gain greater cover.

"IF" is the word that causes you to lose your bonus.

Once the enemy repositions themselves so you no longer have cover from them, the 'if' clause is no longer true.

See the cover rules and diagrams on page 477 to help you determine if you have cover.

Having cover from an enemy at the end of your turn is not a guarantee that you'll have cover until your turn starts again.

The 'If' is teling you how you can activate greater cover, it is not in the list of lossing cover. but even if this is so you would get a +2 AC bonus instead of the +4 then? as it satrts 'otherwise' which negates the 'If' statment. because if you are prone you can active take cover to get +2 and you are still prone if somebody is next to you or round a corner. So in my example above they would get a +4 AC if the Ogre didnt move and a +2 AC if the Ogre move forward and get line of site.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
The_Dead_Warrior wrote:

Now it is the Ogre's turn. If they remain there both Kyra & Merisiel have greater cover +4 AC. So the Ogre moves forward ten feet to be out of the alley. What happens to the cover bonuses?

It is gone.

Quote:

Would Merisiel not position their self close to the building meaning the Ogre can only attack left handed making them harder to hit thus increasing Merisiel's AC (like in castle staircase, the spiral staircase in a castle would be designed to turn in a clockwise direction. This meant that those ascending the staircase would have their right hand (their sword arm) tight against the narrowest part of the stairs, close to the central pole. This made it almost impossible for the attacker to use their sword effectively. In contrast, those defending the castle had much more freedom of movement to strike downwards with their swords. Fun fact of the day)

And likewise if the Ogre throw a spear that Kyra would they not push themselves tight to the wall to make a small as possible target for the ranged attack.

Pathfinder doesn't really simulate being left or right handed any more than it simulates facing, which is not at all. Also, any disadvantage the ogre has for having space to swing is probably offset by Merisiel having less room to dodge. There's a reason "having your back against the wall" is an idiom for being in a bad position.


The_Dead_Warrior wrote:
Lets take the cover example on page 477
Quote:
1. lets take Valeros of the table and say that Kyra started in that square,

Ok, that works

Quote:
2. the ogre had their turn and moved into the position they are in

Okay

Quote:
3. next Merisiel takes two action then uses 'take cover'.

Okay

Quote:
4. Kyra makes and action then moves from Valeros's square to the square they are in in the picture and also uses the 'take cover' action.

Okay

Quote:
5. Ignore Seoni.

Okay

Quote:
6. Now it is the Ogre's turn. If they remain there both Kyra & Merisiel have greater cover +4 AC.

Nope, Merisiel only has 'cover', not 'greater cover'.

Quote:
7. So the Ogre moves forward ten feet to be out of the alley. What happens to the cover bonuses?

They change. Merisiel has no cover. She is adjacent to the ogre (one corner of the square she is in touches one corner of the ogre's space.

Kyra has 'lesser cover' if Seoni is in that square, and 'no cover' if Seoni isn't there.

Quote:
8. Would Merisiel not position their self close to the building meaning the Ogre can only attack left handed making them harder to hit thus increasing Merisiel's AC (like in castle staircase, the spiral staircase in a castle would be designed to turn in a clockwise direction. This meant that those ascending the staircase would have their right hand (their sword arm) tight against the narrowest part of the stairs, close to the central pole. This made it almost impossible for the attacker to use their sword effectively. In contrast, those defending the castle had much more freedom of movement to strike downwards with their swords. Fun fact of the day)

Irrelevant to the rules of Pathfinder. No matter where Merisiel positions herself within that square, the amount of cover she has does not change

Quote:
9. And likewise if the Ogre throw a spear that Kyra would they not push themselves tight to the wall to make a small as possible target for the ranged attack.

Again, irrelevant to the rules of Pathfinder. Where Kyra is standing within the square makes no difference to whether or not she has cover.

Quote:
10. I feel that this would mean that the action spent on protecting themselves with the take cover was not so easily lost.

Maybe, but that's not what the rules say.

If you are the GM, you can change the rules and create "house rules" that allow the actions you're describing to change the amount of cover each person has.

If you're not the GM, but you're playing in a home game, then you can politely ask the GM if they would agree to that rule change. The GM gets to decide if they want to do that or not.

If you're playing at a Pathfinder Society table, don't ask. The rules won't change. Everybody plays by the rules as they are written in the rulebook. Neither the GM nor the players can make changes to them.


Thanks both for the assistance, you are more experienced than me but i still do not see how you loose all the cover benefits. The character is actively making an effort to be harder to hit, same as raise a shield action, they haven't used all the effect on attacks they are taking steps to defend themselves.

I see where you are coming from for melee attacks and agree that in reality Merisiel in this example loses the AC boost to melee attacks, but i find it hard to understand how Kyra would lose the AC bonus completely to ranged attacks. If you can

Quote:
Take Cover while prone to hunker down and gain cover against ranged attacks, even if you don’t have an object to get behind, gaining a +4 circumstance bonus to AC against ranged attacks (but you remain flat-footed).

CRB 621. Then how can Kyra in this situation not get any AC boost.

With regards to RAW I would still say that the take cover action states;

Quote:
Otherwise, you gain the benefits of standard cover (a +2 circumstance bonus instead).

So this means that if option 1 (Lesser cover to greater cover +4 AC doesn't happen then option 2 does you get lesser cover +2 AC

Quote:
OTHERWISE – ADVERB - In circumstances different from those present or considered previously; or else


What you quoted is from the description of the PRONE CONDITION.

If Kyra is PRONE, and uses the Take Cover basic action, then she gets the +4 circumstance bonus and is also Flat-footed to the Ogre.

If you want Kyra to use one action to Drop Prone, she can, but that is an additional action after she uses a Take Cover action. It also imposes the Flat-footed Condition, which gives you a -2 penalty to AC


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Above posters seem to be missing the second to last sentence of Take Cover, so to try to elaborate on that a bit...

If the enemy repositions themselves in such a way that you no longer have standard cover, you can no longer use Take Cover to get Greater Cover. That's indisputable.

But there's a second part to the action that allows you to gain the benefits of standard cover, if you aren't already benefiting from standard cover.

So, will Take Cover protect you from the Ogre?

The answer is... it's up to your GM.

Take Cover has three requirements, one of which must be filled in order to benefit from the effects of the action:
You don't have cover, so that one doesn't count.
You aren't prone, so that one doesn't count.

Which leaves:

Quote:
are near a feature that allows you to take cover

The problem of course, is that this statement is a tautology, it's completely circular: in order to Take Cover you need to be in a position where you could Take Cover.

So basically, when the Ogre moves, you ask your GM if the terrain you're using to take cover is still suitable to benefit from the "otherwise" section of the Take Cover action... and the GM either says yes or no, which determines how much AC you have. There's no other way to adjudicate it.


If you look at the "Cover" diagram on pg 477, Core Rulebook, you'll see that the previous "cover" Kyra was using was being around the corner of a building from where the ogre was.

Once the ogre moves 10 feet forward, Kyra is no longer around a corner. If Seoni isn't on the map, then there is nothing between Kyra and the ogre. The wall that was previously protecting her is at her back.

If Seoni is still on the map, the Kyra gets 'lesser cover' from the ogre, as describe earlier on the page (Valeros is providing Seoni 'lesser cover' from the ogre before the ogre moves.)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It's the same as with any tactical pc games now, like X-com. You get behind cover and you have cover, but if the enemy moves into flanking positions you lose the cover for that enemy.

Sovereign Court

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The_Dead_Warrior wrote:
I feel that if I didn't use the take cover action that I would not get any AC boost but because I used an action it is not fair that I lose this as it make it a complete waste of a action in 9/10 cases.

It's not a waste. You've spent one action of yours, to force the enemy to spend one action of theirs. That's one action the ogre isn't using to hit another time.

In fact, when it's multiple characters fighting one monster, trading one action of the players for one of the monster is a very good thing. If you had four players, you together would get 12 actions per round. The ogre would get 3. If you trade one action for one action, your group still has 11 left but the ogre only 2. That's a big profit!

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