How to Build a Trio of lvl 14 Cavaliers


Advice


I'm working on a trio of 14th level cavaliers, who fought in the Shining Crusades and have risen as ghasts. I'm sure there's a clever way to utilize a group of tacticians, but I don't know it.

I'me thinking about building one disciple-of-the-pike Archetype, Order of the Dragon, Scimitars with versatile design weapon mod,so they count as the polearm weapon group, which means they now work with the Weapon Training you get from disciple of the pike.

I'd love to hear your ideas!


Tactician opens up tricks like tandem trip, outflank and harrying partners. A group of tacticians...well, I guess they wouldn't need to spend actions setting up the teamwork feats if they already shared said feats anyway.

14th level is high enough level to make any sort of melee. A TWF cuisinart like your idea, a tripper, grappler, dirty trickster or sunderer, an ubercharger, the intimidate build from Hell - and yes a cavalier could do any of these.

Do they have to show up for more than the length of a single fight?


avr wrote:

Tactician opens up tricks like tandem trip, outflank and harrying partners. A group of tacticians...well, I guess they wouldn't need to spend actions setting up the teamwork feats if they already shared said feats anyway.

14th level is high enough level to make any sort of melee. A TWF cuisinart like your idea, a tripper, grappler, dirty trickster or sunderer, an ubercharger, the intimidate build from Hell - and yes a cavalier could do any of these.

Do they have to show up for more than the length of a single fight?

The fight is from Dungeons of Golarian (Gallowspire), which has a map but not a recommendation of how to pace the fights. I had assumed just once, but there's room for interpretation. It's supposed to be a CR 16 fight, but I think my players (alchemist, investigator, bloodrager, paladin, inquisitor, all lvl 16) might be better erring on the side of CR 17.

I love this opportunity for such combat maneuvers. Hard to say no to the ultimate charger in the situation. Dirty tricker is pretty damn funny...


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Three level 14 characters with NPC wealth against five level 16/17 characters with PC wealth is a speed bump. I wouldn't spend too long preparing it. By that level the encounter needs to be CR=APL+4 so ~20-21 to be worth worrying much about.

The dirty trick guy gets improved/greater/superior/quick dirty trick as well as dirty trick master (& of course dirty fighting). They have a couple of bonus feats and one more just from level, plus tactician/greater; maybe get the kitsune style line and coordinated maneuvers/outflank as their teamwork feats.

Charger in a dungeon as an undead; the ghost rider archetype is calling. Get the charge through feat (so they're not forced to charge the front line) and power attack/improved overrun/greater overrun, and mounted combat, ride by attack and spirited charge, and maybe furious focus and trick riding. A ghost rider doesn't get tactician etc.

Order of the ronin is good enough. You might polish these more, but they're a speed bump. Don't spend too much time.


avr wrote:

Three level 14 characters with NPC wealth against five level 16/17 characters with PC wealth is a speed bump. I wouldn't spend too long preparing it. By that level the encounter needs to be CR=APL+4 so ~20-21 to be worth worrying much about.

The dirty trick guy gets improved/greater/superior/quick dirty trick as well as dirty trick master (& of course dirty fighting). They have a couple of bonus feats and one more just from level, plus tactician/greater; maybe get the kitsune style line and coordinated maneuvers/outflank as their teamwork feats.

Charger in a dungeon as an undead; the ghost rider archetype is calling. Get the charge through feat (so they're not forced to charge the front line) and power attack/improved overrun/greater overrun, and mounted combat, ride by attack and spirited charge, and maybe furious focus and trick riding. A ghost rider doesn't get tactician etc.

Order of the ronin is good enough. You might polish these more, but they're a speed bump. Don't spend too much time.

This is really helpful, thanks for pointing me in the right direction! I'd rather up their levels than downplay the encounter, would you bump the levels to 16?


16th level; they get the 15th level order ability and for a ronin/knight errant that's a 1/day natural 20. Yes, you could give the PCs a fright with that. Order of the dragon has its own trick at L15. The PCs are not going to lose but they might remember the fight. Yes, 2 more levels could help noticeably.


Won't lie, the entire concept of Undead Cavaliers is just stupid. Why would a high level dungeon be designed to include such things?

Undead cannot receive Moral bonuses, which is the source of 90% of their Challenge bonuses. This is effectively eliminating a big feature of the class, a feature that is often considered to be a strength of the class.

Other than that little detail, I think a Mother's Fang Intimidation build could be cool. Undead need Charisma, so it shouldn't be hard to pump up Intimidate sky-high. Maybe sneak in Skill Focus and Signature Skill, really get people shaking in their boots. It's a ghoul, riding a giant snake... it's scary. Or possibly could be, if built right.


VoodistMonk wrote:

Won't lie, the entire concept of Undead Cavaliers is just stupid. Why would a high level dungeon be designed to include such things?

Undead cannot receive Moral bonuses, which is the source of 90% of their Challenge bonuses. This is effectively eliminating a big feature of the class, a feature that is often considered to be a strength of the class.

Other than that little detail, I think a Mother's Fang Intimidation build could be cool. Undead need Charisma, so it shouldn't be hard to pump up Intimidate sky-high. Maybe sneak in Skill Focus and Signature Skill, really get people shaking in their boots. It's a ghoul, riding a giant snake... it's scary. Or possibly could be, if built right.

A very good point. Truthfully, the Dungeons of Golarian Gallowspire was not super thoughtfully created. It hand-waves a lot of very high level characters which are cool when named but doesn't leave you a lot to go on.

Intimidate would be a satisfying, especially in a sepulcher. I had been thinking an undead mount - but undead snake takes it to the next level! I couldn't see a crusader using one, but maybe it crawled into his crypt and that was what caused him to turn?


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You could make one of them a sword and board "sister in arms" cavalier basically co-opting the mechanics without the fluff and build it as just the most obnoxious tank, using aid another to shoot up AC or in harms way to take hits for more damaging cavaliers.


Ryan Freire wrote:
You could make one of them a sword and board "sister in arms" cavalier basically co-opting the mechanics without the fluff and build it as just the most obnoxious tank, using aid another to shoot up AC or in harms way to take hits for more damaging cavaliers.

That's a great idea. Talking feats - Antagonize or call out to lock in a foe? (Standard action). Combat Reflexes is a must. Not sure if the classic combat patrol/stand still is worth it here (Combat Patrol is a full round action, but it extends your reach, combined with Stand Still says when you smack someone with an attack of opportunity they can't keep moving)

Extend the Bullwark (Free Action) would probably be the teamwork feat for this guy at 3rd. You get bodyguard for free, so maybe we should pick up In harm's Way (immediate action) lets you take the hit for you buddy.

Do you think following the Vanguard Style (attack of opportunity) tree of feats is worth while? First one lets you aid your buddies reflex saves. Vanguard Ward (combine the expended attack of opportunities from bodyguard+vanguard).
Harrying Partners probably as the next teamwork feat, lets your aid another last a round instead of just the first attack against that ally. I could also consider the Scarlet Rose Devotion, which is a little silly with the order of the dragon but it lets you aid those saves an immediate action? Of course, I could save those immediate actions for Saving Shield, which lets you grant a +2 shield bonus to ac of a defending ally.
A bunch of these feats come together to let you get Vanguard Hustle. It lets you add half of your shield’s enhancement bonus to the shield bonus to AC that you grant to an ally using the Saving Shield feat. While using Vanguard Style, whenever you increase your threatened area with Combat Patrol, your ward retains the bonuses of Vanguard Style as long as he remains within your threatened area, and you can use Bodyguard, Saving Shield, and Vanguard Style whenever an ally that is within this threatened area is the target of an attack.

Maybe a halfling to get the helpful trait?

Benevolent weapons/armor, ring of the master tactician...What am I missing?

Shadow Lodge

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Coordinated charge is what you are missing.

If they are to be mounted, then cavalry formation is a must as well. Three cavaliers, spirited charge, coordinated charge, and lances = instant death.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
gnoams wrote:

Coordinated charge is what you are missing.

If they are to be mounted, then cavalry formation is a must as well. Three cavaliers, spirited charge, coordinated charge, and lances = instant death.

Throw in the Distracting Charge teamwork feat too.


Benjamin Debrick wrote:
gnoams wrote:

Coordinated charge is what you are missing.

If they are to be mounted, then cavalry formation is a must as well. Three cavaliers, spirited charge, coordinated charge, and lances = instant death.

Throw in the Distracting Charge teamwork feat too.

oooo both of these are exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. Thanks!

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