Boomerang vs Chakram


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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So I had been toying with the idea of making characters based off Avatar: the Last Air-Bender.

Katara, Toph, Zuko, and Aang naturally would be Kineticist specializing in their appropriate elements (except Aang who would do all four)

And then I went "And Sokka will be a Fighter focused on Boomerangs"

And then I looked up Boomerangs in PF1

The Boomerang and Chakram are both introduced together on the same page in the same table in the APG

They both have a crit of 20 x2
They both have a range of 30'
The boomerang does 1d6 B
The Chakram does 1d8 S
The rules entry SPECIFIES that combat boomerangs DO NOT RETURN, that returning boomerangs are recreational and don't inflict damage.

This is all fine so far.

The Chakram is a Martial weapon, so any Fighter or other class that gets "All Martial Weapons" can use it.

The Boomerang is FREAKING EXOTIC

Why is the boomerang Exotic? It is clearly mechanically worse than the Chakram.

Literally the only time the boomerang would be a better choice is when fighting a monster where weapon damage type matters.

So, I don't know, I guess if you're fighting only Skeletons and Oozes...

Am I missing something? Is there some 'Thing' that justifies boomerang requiring an extra feat to do less damage? Or is it just one of those things?


Sometimes a weapon just isn't as "good" as another weapon.

Shadow Lodge

Hmm, wow yeah, the boomerang is a javelin that does bludgeoning damage instead of piercing. Apparently this is worth changing it from a simple to an exotic weapon.

I would chalk it up to bad editing. I have a few theories: 1- Someone accidentally put exotic instead of simple on it. 2- it says special: see text, but there's only a fluff description, no special rules. Maybe there was some special rules for it that didn't make it in to the final print. 3- They gave a monkey a typewriter to make up the rules for it.


I expect it was originally supposed to be Exotic and returning (which might be cool) but that was cut in the edit.


Add a line that they can be used as a club (which they could) and youd be a bit closer to balance. You could also add another line about how if you miss with one, a DC 15 athletics check allows you to pick which square within 10 feet it lands in. All of this would make it a little more desirable.

Past that, yeah it's not that great as written.


In D&D 3.5 a fair few weapons were exotic by proficiency because they were exotic in the assumed culture. PF1 mostly removed this, but the writer might have been thinking of the D&D way. (PF2 reintroduced this as 'uncommon' weapons, partially separate from advanced/exotic weapons).


While this isn't the homebrew forum, if I wanted to make the Exotic property worth it I'd give Boomerangs a "curving" mechanic. As part of your attack you can calculate the flight path with one 90-degree turn to circumvent cover/total cover.

Feels thematically on point.


Chakram = Range Increment 30' (Thrown)

Boomerang = Range Increment 30' (Projectile)

So a chakram can be thrown 5 range increments; a boomerang can be thrown for 10. If you REALLY need to hit someone 300' away for 1d6 B damage plus Str bonus, have an insanely high attack bonus and are willing to accept the -20 attack penalty, boomerang is an option.


Pretty sure its classification as a projectile is yet another screw-up.


blahpers wrote:
Pretty sure its classification as a projectile is yet another screw-up.

Well screw up or not, that's the classification. Maybe its valid though. Maybe war boomerangs don't automatically return but they DO fly REALLY far because of their aerodynamic design.

I don't know folks, I just looked it up is all. Slings have special ammo that deals slashing or piercing damage; there are arrows that deal blunt damage; is it really such a stretch that you just invent a "chakram" that deals B instead of S?

Also remember that a chakram can be used as a melee weapon with a -1 penalty. If you do that though, you're either making a DC 15 Ref save or taking half damage (no Str bonus) from the weapon; this self-damage doesn't occur if you're wearing Heavy armor.

Since I never watched the cartoon, could you sub in another thrown blunt weapon for the boomerang? I mean... club = 1d6 B damage thrown weapon with a 10' ranged increment and it's a Simple weapon. Throwing shields are just normal shields +50 GP to make it a Performance, Trip weapon with a 10' thrown range increment, and those are generally Martial weapons. Either of those work?


Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Chakram = Range Increment 30' (Thrown)

Boomerang = Range Increment 30' (Projectile)

Where is a boomerang classified as a projectile weapon? For that matter, where is anything classified as a thrown or projectile weapon?

TiwazBlackhand wrote:
Why is the boomerang Exotic?

Because it requires a lot of training to be usuable. That's theoretically Paizos main criteria for the simple/martial/exotic classification. A simple weapon is oen that's either intuitive to use or everyone has one around and can easily train with, martial are weapon were you basically need a teacher, and exotic weapons are oens that are so complicated that militia training alonecouldn't teach you how to use it.

The real problem is that the range is a joke. The entire concept of a boomerang is that it due to the angular momentum or the rotation, and the flat shape, it flies straighter and further than a normal object would.
Wikipedia says "Traditionally, most boomerangs used by Aboriginal groups in Australia were non-returning. These weapons, sometimes called "throwsticks" or "kylies", were used for hunting a variety of prey, from kangaroos to parrots; at a range of about 100 metres (330 ft), a 2-kg (4.4 lb) non-returning boomerang could inflict mortal injury to a large animal." Others sources mention 80-100 meters being fairly easy, and 160 meters being possible, while maintaining high accuracy.
Fun fact: A boomerang holds the Guiness World Record for the "Longest Throw of Any Object by a Human", with 427.2 meters (1,402 ft).

Basically, a non-returning boomerang should have a range increment of at least 100 ft!

Wonderstell wrote:
While this isn't the homebrew forum, if I wanted to make the Exotic property worth it I'd give Boomerangs a "curving" mechanic.

Hunting boomerangs don't actually do that, quite the contrary - they fly extremely straight. I recommend checking out a vidoe, e.g. this one.


Derklord wrote:
Where is a boomerang classified as a projectile weapon? For that matter, where is anything classified as a thrown or projectile weapon?

Huh, good question; that's what I get for checking the unofficial site first.

As far as I know, the distinction is only specified in the Core Rulebook, and only for the specific ranged weapons in said book:

Melee and Ranged Weapons wrote:

Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table 6–4), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, halfling sling staves, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it’s a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.

Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions). Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

The only hard guideline for extending this list that I can see is whether the weapon uses ammunition. Boomerangs do not. I'm not sure why d20pfsrd decided boomerangs were projectiles, but considering they're basically flat throwing clubs and I can't find any official text to the contrary, I'm calling 'em thrown weapons.

Shadow Lodge

If it helps, the boomerang is in the thrown fighter weapon group as per this old blog post.

The Exchange

actually, I don't think the question here is not "Why is the Boomerang so BAD?", it should be "Why is the Chakram so GOOD?"

pull out the specks on the other thrown missiles and Boomerang is kind of mah... but (except is very specific circumstances) the Chakram is just hands down the best weapon.


The Chakram is a weapon with a rich and proven history, made famous by Xena the Warrior Princess.

The boomerang is just a bent stick that has been used by humans on earth to hunt giant rabbits.


Derklord wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
While this isn't the homebrew forum, if I wanted to make the Exotic property worth it I'd give Boomerangs a "curving" mechanic.
Hunting boomerangs don't actually do that, quite the contrary - they fly extremely straight. I recommend checking out a vidoe, e.g. this one.

I am both disappointed and very impressed.

Then again, maybe learning to use a returning boomerang as an actual weapon is worth EWP while the hunting boomerang could be a martial weapon.


I'm sure there's an effective technique for the boomerang, but it is unequivocally a simple weapon.

Upon seeing one for the very first time, haven't even touched it yet... if someone was to tell you that you had to stand here, and kill that over there, with this... you would intuitively know exactly what you were going to do next.

There isn't an adjustment period, there isn't anything that you have to figure out... no loading, no cocking, no putting it together.

It's a bent stick. You throw it. There is no "Step Two".


So I don't really have any experience with Hunting Boomerangs, but I used to selll returning boomerangs.

Shape:
Boomerangs aren't just bent sticks. They have a curved side and a flat side - which is essentially the same aerodynamic properties as an aeroplane's wings. If you look at a Boomerang end-on it should look something like this (but less pronounced): D
Also I'm not quite sure on the physics of this, but the more bent the boomerang is (the closer to 90 degrees) the more it will curve in the air. So the overall shape of the boomerang will look something like this:
Hunting =
Returning = >
(obviously this isn't perfect but you get the idea)

Difficulty:
As far as throwing them, I was able to give a 30 second demonstration to customers (this demonstration was done without taking the boomerang out of the packaging) and they'd be able to have it return. However without that demonstration it wan't especially intuitive, nearly everyone would throw it incorrectly. So in fact there is a "step 2". I don't know exactly how different that is to the Hunting Boomerang, but I imagine it would be fairly similar (not difficult, but not obvious).

How that relates to the Boomerang in game I'm not sure, but my instinct would be to make them Martial instead of Exotic. It also seems fairly obvious that they didn't know the range of a boomerang, so adjust that as you see fit. The damage doesn't matter too much as you can add to that with Strength/feats/spells/items/etc


Hunting boomerangs often have a long end and a short end, with a slight bend. The technique for how you throw it varies, but it is more akin to a throwing axe than the toy boomerangs that return.


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So a quick glance at Sokka's page on the Avatar Wiki suggests at the bottom that he was a skilled soldier with skill in a lot of different weapons, the boomerang being his signature one. He was also skilled in some hand-to-hand fighting, though weapon use seems to have been his primary method of self defense.

Besides boomerangs, the article also mentions clubs. Clubs are a thrown blunt object meant to go a slightly shorter distance than chakrams and deal less damage, but they are Simple weapons literally anyone can use, even a Wizard. I would again assert: just use clubs, and call them boomerangs.

As for the debate here about boomerang being exotic or not, intuitive use doesn't mean much in qualifying something as exotic. If it did, why would a machete be a Martial weapon or a falcata be exotic? For that matter, how did axes and hammers, literal tools, get put into the Martial category?

Anyways yes, I found the distinction of boomerang being a Projectile in the PFSRD site. There's no such distinction at the entry for boomerangs in the Archives of Nethys. I don't know what the actual books say about this weapon, it's "Projectile" status or not, so there's my source citing.

Personally I go by the Projectile rule in one of my own games where the half-elf monk of the group decided to start using this weapon. I'm fairly certain he chose it solely for flavor. He hasn't used it beyond 50' yet, but the option is there that if he decided to he could toss the boomerang much farther than he could a chakram.

Honestly I get frustrated in comparing weapons to other weapons. The halfling slingstaff comes to mind. Oh sure, it's got great mechanical benefit in that you only have to enchant one item to get bonuses to both a ranged and melee weapon, that's cool, but the thing in the hands of a halfling is a Str-bonus-to-damage weapon for a race with a Str penalty, until recently couldn't be loaded as a Free action, and deals the least amount of damage of any projectile weapon, not to mention the fact that the melee portion of the weapon counts specifically as a club which makes it not usable with Weapon Finesse. Again, halflings have a high Dex and low Str, and their signature weapon deals very little base damage, is the most accurate in their hands with its ranged function, and it combines 2 free weapons into a single device that costs 20 GP.

Meanwhile elves or Martial weapon users get a longbow. While they don't automatically get the melee or mechanical, enchantment-savings benefits of the slingstaff, elves (also a low-Str race) get a ranged weapon which is very expensive at 75 GP, but flies much further per range increment, deals 2 steps more base damage, is not Str dependent for extra damage, can automatically be loaded as a Free action and even gets arguably some of the best ranged combat feats designed solely for it.

There is no balance between weapons, I get that. But some of the inconsistencies and classifications between weapons really baffle me with this game. Every indication I can see in real life is that a sling takes some degree of mastery and skill to use effectively in real life hunting, to be able to hit something accurately and consistently, yet this is made a Simple weapon because it is really easy and cheap to make. A light hammer... essentially a block of shaped stone or metal fitted onto a stick, used as a basic tool by humans IRL for millennia, is only able to be wielded in battle properly by a trained warrior according to PF.

Sorry for the rant, really. Just use club for boomerang. Or use boomerang, and take Exotic Weapon Proficiency. See if your GM will give you the proficiency as a free Feat since that's kind of Sokka's thing.


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Every time I scroll past this I read "Boomerang vs. Chicken" and get disappointed when I re-read it.

Grand Lodge

Well about chickens as thrown objects...

While running a Tier 1-2 table for a certain Special with a Really Big Dragon on the roof a building the PCs have to get into... the PCs are hiding around the corner of the building - peeking around and trying to get up the nerve to run across the courtyard to the buildings entrance.

Cleric to Rogue: "We need a distraction - something to draw the dragons attention away from the door before the rest of us run out there."

Rogue reply's: "Well... I have a chicken."

other players look at Rogue player: "????"

Rogue: "yeah, I picked one up - it's on my equipment sheet - see?"

Cleric to Rogue: "...and ... you're going to use it how?"

Rogue: "I'll throw it at the dragon. She wont be expecting that...."

Fighter: "...yeah, I sure wouldn't be expecting someone to pitch a chicken at me..."

Rogue: "yeah, I'll do that. So I run out here in the courtyard and throw the chicken..."

Overseer judge over loudspeakers announces that "the Really Big Dragon on the Roof" flies away. (totally unrelated to events at the Tier 1-2 table, but great timing!)

Me as the Table judge: "Seeing the chicken flying in her direction, the Dragon leaps from the roof and with a crash of her gigantic jaws, snatch's it from the air. Doing a Wing-Over maneuver and with a snap of her huge leathery wings, the giant beast speeds away over the cities rooftops..."

Rogue player sits back with big smile on her face.

Cleric player looks at the table judge, then the other players and says... "Heck, it looks like the dragon just wanted chicken take-out..."

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