paizo.com Recent Posts in The Limited Heal Testpaizo.com Recent Posts in The Limited Heal Test2020-05-13T00:47:14Z2020-05-13T00:47:14ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal TestDeriven Firelion (alias of Maddigan)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#222020-05-22T10:35:28Z2020-05-22T10:35:28Z<p>I want to see how the party does in the final encounters.</p>I want to see how the party does in the final encounters.Deriven Firelion (alias of Maddigan)2020-05-22T10:35:28ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal TestQueauxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#212020-05-20T18:28:29Z2020-05-20T18:28:29Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Paul Jessop wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Queaux wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Nice write up. It's a good test.</p>
<p>I'd think the main disadvantage of not having a ranged combat heal is when there is a high level enemy with AOOs that knocks out and stands over a party member. I believe there is a fight with giants around the same level in AOA that could be used to test this. </blockquote>When you say combat heal... are you meaning as a skill? </blockquote><p>I mean the spells heal or soothe, mostly.Paul Jessop wrote:Queaux wrote:Nice write up. It's a good test.
I'd think the main disadvantage of not having a ranged combat heal is when there is a high level enemy with AOOs that knocks out and stands over a party member. I believe there is a fight with giants around the same level in AOA that could be used to test this.
When you say combat heal... are you meaning as a skill? I mean the spells heal or soothe, mostly.Queaux2020-05-20T18:28:29ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal TestPaul Jessophttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#202020-05-20T16:35:30Z2020-05-20T16:35:30Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Queaux wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Nice write up. It's a good test.</p>
<p>I'd think the main disadvantage of not having a ranged combat heal is when there is a high level enemy with AOOs that knocks out and stands over a party member. I believe there is a fight with giants around the same level in AOA that could be used to test this. </blockquote><p>When you say combat heal... are you meaning as a skill?Queaux wrote:Nice write up. It's a good test.
I'd think the main disadvantage of not having a ranged combat heal is when there is a high level enemy with AOOs that knocks out and stands over a party member. I believe there is a fight with giants around the same level in AOA that could be used to test this.
When you say combat heal... are you meaning as a skill?Paul Jessop2020-05-20T16:35:30ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal TestQueauxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#192020-05-20T14:33:37Z2020-05-20T14:33:37Z<p>Another tight fight. That many AOOs in a corridor is going to be punishing.</p>Another tight fight. That many AOOs in a corridor is going to be punishing.Queaux2020-05-20T14:33:37ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal Testandrewwhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#182020-05-19T23:15:54Z2020-05-19T23:15:54Z<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>At this point they level to level 11.</p>[Spoiler omitted]
At this point they level to level 11.andreww2020-05-19T23:15:54ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal Testandrewwhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#172020-05-18T23:33:46Z2020-05-18T23:33:46Z<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>[Spoiler omitted]andreww2020-05-18T23:33:46ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal TestUbertron_Xhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#162020-05-18T22:18:46Z2020-05-18T22:12:13Z<p>I have to say I left am quite puzzled when I compare the encounters presented here (and in the other thread) with my actual game experience. Combat always looks smooth, short and tidy. I guess I will have to take into account that apart from not rolling well (we do not roll bad either, but sometimes just average rolls get you nowhere in PF2) my group is neither especially well build nor played by one single mind.</p>I have to say I left am quite puzzled when I compare the encounters presented here (and in the other thread) with my actual game experience. Combat always looks smooth, short and tidy. I guess I will have to take into account that apart from not rolling well (we do not roll bad either, but sometimes just average rolls get you nowhere in PF2) my group is neither especially well build nor played by one single mind.Ubertron_X2020-05-18T22:12:13ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal TestTimeshadowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#152020-05-18T19:54:27Z2020-05-18T19:54:27Z<p>AS a GM about to do just these secens in AoA I love these combat summaries. It allows me to get a feel for the combats b4 actually running them. Keep up the good work and thx.</p>
<p>Our party consists of A half elf Thief/Sorc, an elven Percision ranger with Butterscotch the Bear companion, a Dwarvin Warhammer/Shield Fighter, and a Gnome Divine Sorcerer. </p>
<p>One thing I am really suprised at is how blasty the Divine Sorcerer is and how well her spells last through the day with 4 of each lvl plus an extra max lvl heal and her enhanced healing focus power it is tough for me to lay enough damage on the party for it to stick. During the previous adventures I have gotten a player to dieing 3 a total of twice (one just recently). The ranger is our out of combat healer with expert medicine and some of the skill feats and they all invested heavly in healing potions to be safe during downtime. I have even beefed up some encounters with a touch more hp and the odd elite just to make them have to work a bit harder for their wins.</p>
<p>Of course all that goes out the window when the Thief/Sorc manages to seduce a certin rusty Hag..... OMG I never saw it coming (He got ahold of the ring of lies from earlier and he was already high face/diplomacy) he also made certin to keep the had with the ring on it hidden...</p>AS a GM about to do just these secens in AoA I love these combat summaries. It allows me to get a feel for the combats b4 actually running them. Keep up the good work and thx.
Our party consists of A half elf Thief/Sorc, an elven Percision ranger with Butterscotch the Bear companion, a Dwarvin Warhammer/Shield Fighter, and a Gnome Divine Sorcerer.
One thing I am really suprised at is how blasty the Divine Sorcerer is and how well her spells last through the day with 4 of each lvl plus an...Timeshadow2020-05-18T19:54:27ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal Testandrewwhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#142020-05-17T22:19:26Z2020-05-17T22:19:26Z<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>[Spoiler omitted]andreww2020-05-17T22:19:26ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal Testandrewwhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#132020-05-15T18:20:07Z2020-05-15T18:20:07Z<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>[Spoiler omitted]andreww2020-05-15T18:20:07ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal TestKrispyXIVhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#122020-05-15T19:46:29Z2020-05-15T17:03:03Z<p>Neither of my Age of Ashes Campaigns include a in combat healer, but both do include a Champion whose in combat mitigation probably ends up fulfilling a very similar role. </p>
<p>I just recently got to start playing in an extinction curse, and I rolled a healing cleric a little worried I might have to find stuff to do with extra actions in combat... and discovered that a party that includes no champion and no one with a shield is an ENTIRELY different game.</p>
<p>Without mitigation early on, everyone's taken an absolutely savage beating and I've spent a lot of my time in combat keeping people on their feet. </p>
<p>The moral I'm taking away from this is that while in combat healing may not be necessary, some sort of "Damage Management" strategy in combat is significantly more necessary to your game plan than before. Healing is one strategy that can work for this, but mitigation and reduction along with strong recovery abilities outside of combat are likely another.</p>Neither of my Age of Ashes Campaigns include a in combat healer, but both do include a Champion whose in combat mitigation probably ends up fulfilling a very similar role.
I just recently got to start playing in an extinction curse, and I rolled a healing cleric a little worried I might have to find stuff to do with extra actions in combat... and discovered that a party that includes no champion and no one with a shield is an ENTIRELY different game.
Without mitigation early on, everyone's...KrispyXIV2020-05-15T17:03:03ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal Testandrewwhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#112020-05-15T15:45:34Z2020-05-15T15:45:34Z<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>[Spoiler omitted]andreww2020-05-15T15:45:34ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal TestQueauxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#102020-05-14T15:32:33Z2020-05-14T15:30:15Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">andreww wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Queaux wrote:</div><blockquote> That was a close fight. It would have been bad if Ando went down given the fight was in the air. Mobility is a hell of a good feat in a flying fight. </blockquote>Yes, probably the most dangerous form of encounter for this grouo, an overlevelled boss monster (13) with flight and 15' reach. Most of the groups ranged capability is Archibald and it was immune to a whole swathe of things he can do and, being 3 levls over them, had very hugh saves. Hiw worst save crit passed on a 15. </blockquote><p>Right, though it isn't at the height of the system for severe encounters with the extra character contributing to the fight.
<p>This party comp seems to work fine without a full support. Ando and Archibald are half combat supports, and Jaxira is like a 1/4 combat support. Ando's damage mitigation and Lay on Hands in particular really pick up the healer role well. I don't think you're proving that this party comp is better, but the Champion in place of a full healer is certainly a compelling option.</p>
<p>Edit: If one of the characters, probably Jaxira, got a ranged heal through an archetype to more conveniently pick up downed characters, I think the party would be exceptionally effective.</p>andreww wrote:Queaux wrote: That was a close fight. It would have been bad if Ando went down given the fight was in the air. Mobility is a hell of a good feat in a flying fight.
Yes, probably the most dangerous form of encounter for this grouo, an overlevelled boss monster (13) with flight and 15' reach. Most of the groups ranged capability is Archibald and it was immune to a whole swathe of things he can do and, being 3 levls over them, had very hugh saves. Hiw worst save crit passed on a...Queaux2020-05-14T15:30:15ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal Testandrewwhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#92020-05-14T15:19:57Z2020-05-14T15:01:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Queaux wrote:</div><blockquote> That was a close fight. It would have been bad if Ando went down given the fight was in the air. Mobility is a hell of a good feat in a flying fight. </blockquote><p>Yes, probably the most dangerous form of encounter for this grouo, an overlevelled boss monster (13) with flight and 15' reach. Most of the groups ranged capability is Archibald and it was immune to a whole swathe of things he can do and, being 3 levls over them, had very hugh saves. Hiw worst save crit passed on a 15.Queaux wrote:That was a close fight. It would have been bad if Ando went down given the fight was in the air. Mobility is a hell of a good feat in a flying fight.
Yes, probably the most dangerous form of encounter for this grouo, an overlevelled boss monster (13) with flight and 15' reach. Most of the groups ranged capability is Archibald and it was immune to a whole swathe of things he can do and, being 3 levls over them, had very hugh saves. Hiw worst save crit passed on a 15.andreww2020-05-14T15:01:50ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal TestQueauxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#82020-05-14T00:16:19Z2020-05-14T00:16:19Z<p>That was a close fight. It would have been bad if Ando went down given the fight was in the air. Mobility is a hell of a good feat in a flying fight.</p>That was a close fight. It would have been bad if Ando went down given the fight was in the air. Mobility is a hell of a good feat in a flying fight.Queaux2020-05-14T00:16:19ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal Testandrewwhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#72020-05-13T20:42:02Z2020-05-13T20:42:02Z<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>[Spoiler omitted]andreww2020-05-13T20:42:02ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal Testandrewwhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#62020-05-13T11:54:05Z2020-05-13T11:54:05Z<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>[Spoiler omitted]andreww2020-05-13T11:54:05ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal TestUbertron_Xhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#52020-05-13T07:20:06Z2020-05-13T07:20:06Z<p>I think the main benefit of having combat healing is the different set of tactics and character builds that can be used.</p>
<p>If not using combat healing your focus has to lie on dealing damage yourself (dead enemies cant deal their damage back), battlefield control and damage avoidance in addition to possible having to have battle medicine on more than just one character.</p>
<p>If you include massive combat healing you usually have the opportunity to at least try to trade damage with you opposition, which enables a whole different set of possible tactics.</p>
<p>Personally I see damage avoidance and battlefield control as viable but advanced mode of play, requiring a much more proficient knowledge of the game mechanics and therefore not especially suited for beginners.</p>I think the main benefit of having combat healing is the different set of tactics and character builds that can be used.
If not using combat healing your focus has to lie on dealing damage yourself (dead enemies cant deal their damage back), battlefield control and damage avoidance in addition to possible having to have battle medicine on more than just one character.
If you include massive combat healing you usually have the opportunity to at least try to trade damage with you opposition,...Ubertron_X2020-05-13T07:20:06ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal TestQueauxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#42020-05-13T04:39:21Z2020-05-13T04:38:20Z<p>Nice write up. It's a good test.</p>
<p>I'd think the main disadvantage of not having a ranged combat heal is when there is a high level enemy with AOOs that knocks out and stands over a party member. I believe there is a fight with giants around the same level in AOA that could be used to test this.</p>Nice write up. It's a good test.
I'd think the main disadvantage of not having a ranged combat heal is when there is a high level enemy with AOOs that knocks out and stands over a party member. I believe there is a fight with giants around the same level in AOA that could be used to test this.Queaux2020-05-13T04:38:20ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal Testjdripleyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#32020-05-20T14:51:49Z2020-05-13T01:43:14Z<p>I've seen this go both ways. There are some fights that without the ability to heal would certainly have been a TPK. Others.. hardly an issue.</p>
<p>Higher level enemies tend to strain the party, and that's when a combat healer shines.</p>
<p>i.e. fighting an enemy that is party level +3... it will hit very hard and crit often. Players will be KOed. A combat healer can get them back up on their feet and contributing, but if nobody can do that, then just about every turn a player will go unconscious. Can your party stop that higher level threat in less rounds than it has characters?</p>
<p>Scenarios like this make people think that a Cleric is necessary. I don't think so. I actually think it's better in PF2 if a few of the characters are moderately good healers, rather than 1 character being a showstopper of a healer.</p>
<p>If the bard and druid both have one spell slot dedicated to a healing spell - and it doesn't even need to be a high level spell - they can rapidly bring a downed character back into the fight. If the Monk and Barbarian have Battle Medicine, now all 4 characters have a limited amount of healing. Most fights they won't use a heal in combat, they'll strike or blast away until it's all over, then the Druid with Ward Medic will use Treat Wounds on the front liners, and maybe the odd Elixer of Life will be used. When things get really dangerous, they all pull out the stops and use their spells and Battle Medicine when an ally goes down, bringing that character back into the fight.</p>
<p>You dont' really want to do that to an individual character more than once in a fight anyways - the nature of how Wounded and Dying work means that you are risking character death if you keep getting Wounded and keep getting back up to fight. Eventually you'll go to Dying 4 and that'll be that. Thus the party really only needs a handful of spells/abilities to heal a KOed character back into the fight. After a fight where you get hammered like that, it's typically back to a secure place to camp anyways.</p>
<p>The spread-out nature of the healing capabilities also helps the party; if it's the cleric who goes down first, or gets debilitated by a spell effect, or their car breaks down and they can't make the session... the party has other options. One of the first fights I threw at my party, an Owlbear charged the level 1 party's cleric, crit and KOed him. The primal sorcerer got him back on his feet. Next turn the rogue went down and the Cleric was able to rescue. Then the animal companion got knocked senseless and the druid used a focus spell to bring the animal back into the fight. It was fantastic :)</p>I've seen this go both ways. There are some fights that without the ability to heal would certainly have been a TPK. Others.. hardly an issue.
Higher level enemies tend to strain the party, and that's when a combat healer shines.
i.e. fighting an enemy that is party level +3... it will hit very hard and crit often. Players will be KOed. A combat healer can get them back up on their feet and contributing, but if nobody can do that, then just about every turn a player will go unconscious. Can...jdripley2020-05-13T01:43:14ZRe: Forums: Advice: The Limited Heal TestRavingdorkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#22020-05-13T01:11:29Z2020-05-13T01:11:29Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">andreww wrote:</div><blockquote>Obviously this thread will contain many spoilers for Age of Ashes. If y</blockquote><p>Oh boo. :(andreww wrote:Obviously this thread will contain many spoilers for Age of Ashes. If y
Oh boo. :(Ravingdork2020-05-13T01:11:29ZForums: Advice: The Limited Heal Testandrewwhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs431e7?The-Limited-Heal-Test#12020-05-15T18:43:09Z2020-05-13T00:47:14Z<p>Second edition has been out now for about 10 months and I have played and run a lot of it, most of it PFS. I ran a test at level 20 some time back. One of the things I regularly hear suggested is that in combat healing is far more necessary in 2e than 1e. That has been my experience playing PFS games as well although they have all been low level (1-6) so far. </p>
<p>A recent game shifted my opinion on that a little. I played the Iolite Squad Alpha scenario with two barbarians, two rogues and a wizard (I was the wizard). We completed it with full rewards and, while it was difficult in places, we didn’t need the in combat healing. We had several people with medicine for out of combat healing and a couple of people with battle medicine. </p>
<p>I decided to see if this would continue to be the case in the middle levels and so we have this test. Like the level 20 test this is mostly a test of combat capabilities although the characters are built with more than just combat in mind. I picked Part 3 of Age of Ashes as it fits the level range I wanted to test. The PCs start at level 10 in Chapter Two. Obviously this thread will contain many spoilers for Age of Ashes. If you want to avoid them please do not read on.</p>
<p>Our cast of PCs are as follows:</p>
<p><b>Jaxira</b>, a half elven rogue and a terrifying charmer. A bold, brash and brazen thief, Jaxira is a master of acrobatics, diplomacy, intimidate and stealth. She can provide her own flat footed condition with dread striker (combined with battle cry and terrified retreat for good measure), precise debilitation or has easier flanking options with gang up. Mobility lets her get around more safely and she makes a strong face, especially with her greater cloak of repute. </p>
<p><b>Korella</b> is a doughty dwarven fighter with a penchant for hitting people with her dwarven war axe. Sudden charge gives her plenty of mobility, power attack and furious focus let her inflict plenty of damage or she can go the improved knockdown route to help set up people for Jaxira. She has a very large HP pool and leads the group in survival and athletics based challenges. </p>
<p><b>Ando</b> is a well built, unassuming champion of Sarenrae. He has rather neglected charisma in favour of other stats and as such has avoided a lot of champion attack focus spells. He has taken the traditional shield fighter route while employing the flick mace for one handed reach abilities. This helps him with opportunity attack and also retributive strike and he gets an extra reaction every round to use shield block. Ando has dipped into fighter training for sudden charge and has the clever improviser feat allowing him a good chance to aid on any task, especially combined with his co-operative nature. He has the only significant in combat healing, one use of lay on hands for 60hp. </p>
<p><b>Archibald</b> is an unusual character, a Halfling Wizard. A devotee of Chaldira, the halfling goddess of luck, he is highly educated in the arcane and religious arts. Archibald can turn failure into success with his Halfling Luck, Guiding Luck and can share some of that with his companions. Archibald specialises in evocation magic and has a range of different elemental powers at his disposal. He has also dabbled in roguery for some extra skills, armour and the mobility feat. </p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>If you want to see what the characters are like then you can find their details on the roll20 table I am using to run things <a href="https://app.roll20.net/join/7395643/u-vGPQ" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">HERE</a></p>Second edition has been out now for about 10 months and I have played and run a lot of it, most of it PFS. I ran a test at level 20 some time back. One of the things I regularly hear suggested is that in combat healing is far more necessary in 2e than 1e. That has been my experience playing PFS games as well although they have all been low level (1-6) so far.
A recent game shifted my opinion on that a little. I played the Iolite Squad Alpha scenario with two barbarians, two rogues and a...andreww2020-05-13T00:47:14Z