I'm actually getting a chance to be a player for a change (instead of the GM like normal) and have decided to embrace the largely support role of a Bard for a variety of reasons. Now, the only problem is that while I have been playing RPGs for over two decades now, this will be my first foray into PF2, so I'm still flipping through the book trying to get my bearings on the rules, etc.
So with that said, my goal is to be the support player and a bit of a skill monkey (not sure yet if anyone is picking up rogue). What are your favorite ancestries for a Bard? We'll be playing an AP but don't want to divulge which so as not to generate bias based on knowledge of the AP (i.e. I don't want spoilers lol). My thoughts:
Gnome/Halfling: The most obvious choices (along with Goblin which I don't want to play). Gnome probably a little bit better given the extra language and the extra hit points, though both are likely to become less and less important over time. Gnome does offer more flexibility in ability boosts though since it automatically gets Cha as opposed to halfling requiring you to use the free boost on it.
Elf: Not as obvious but still strong. The penalty to Con hurts but with luck, I shouldn't be targeted overly often.
Human: Typically strong, but not as many initial boosts, but also no penalties.
Really, it seems like a lot comes down to the ancestry feats and that's the part that has me struggling as trying to wrap my head around those while still learning all the spells, feats, skills, etc. is a bit of a challenge.
What ancestries do you like? Does one offer particularly strong feat choices for a support/skill role? Initial plan would be to probably start with Maestro Muse and pick up Polymath at level 2, but frankly, I'm likely to want to pump into all the social skills anyway, even with the polymath benefit since its still somewhat situational.
As always, any help is greatly appreciated!
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I like elf for skill monkey, the ability to change around some of your skills(with the right ancestory feats) based on what you’re facing can be a big deal, depending on how the campaign goes. Though bardic lore can make that less important you aren’t looking at enigma. Elf also gives you a noticeable bump to mobility and the option of the elf step feat, so you can dart around giving flanking or demoralizing with more ease. Con isn’t as big a deal because no matter how high it goes it’s still a much smaller portion of your HP, get it up to at least 10, and keep up Dex since you can use it both to attack and defend.
And see, right here is what I'm talking about! Two very good options and well articulated lol!
We haven't even gotten to Human yet which can get pretty dang skill monkey-ish too between heritage and level 1 feat. I like all these options! Hmmm, wonder if the GM will let me play two bards, lol!
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I want to point out that a pure support/skill character in PF2 does not contribute as much as in 3.X/PF1 nor is it enough of a role even in larger parties. Luckily, it's really easy to contribute in combat directly AND support. And it's simple to accumulate a lot of skills. Getting a Multiclass Dedication (MCD) is a solid way to pick up some extra skills (maybe even Cantrips), though I'd recommend MCD Rogue if you really want to monkey around.
So a minor combat:
Sing, shortbow, Shield spell or move.
Sing + offensive Cantrip
Sing + Aid
Tougher combat:
Sing + offensive spells (generally multi-target or Incapacitation spells vs. at-level) (or Soothe when needed)
When forced to move, either a spell or sing + shortbow
Boss fights:
3-action Magic Missile (when possible)
Single-target debuffs (non-Incapacitation) + sing (because it's often easier to debuff your opponent than it is to buff your allies)
Soothe + sing (or move if threatened)
Also add in Demoralize as able.
Personally, I don't think investing multiple feats into Aid pays off enough dividends. Sure, it makes Aid better, but your spells remain superior throughout. Even Telekinetic Projectile will usually contribute more than an Aid (assuming you have 18+ Cha).
Also note that the feats to boost your Compositions run off of Focus Points, so you're getting one per lull (10-minute rest), which is nice, but not game-changing. And they don't work together.
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I really enjoyed a Leshy bard (Polymath into Maestro because polymath stuff is just so good for skills.) If you are a gourd leshy with a pumpkin, take a champion dedication for heavy armor, and do some trickery with general feats you can be the headless horseman.
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I'm very partial to Gnomes. In addition to Cha, I believe they have very good ancestry feats. Familiars are awesome. If it's your schtick, talking to animals is great. Getting a primal cantrip gives you some versatility, and you are a CHA class so it'll be as strong as any Bard cantrip until you hit expert in Primal casting.
Won't deny that the familiar/talk to animals is appealing and may be particularly useful. I'm going to have to take a look at the familiar section since that was not initially on my radar.
Leshy could be interesting, but doesn't really fit my particular taste, but does sound like a cool concept.
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@Castilliano
I’d actually say that being a support focused character is both easier to successfully pull off and more impactful in PF2 than 1. In 1 a bard’s song at my table was very rarely high enough to matter with the numbers that were going around. In 2 the tighter math means the numbers stay relevant. Support in PF1 was largely limited to some song and then you just slapped out buff spells until you ran dry. There are far more options here.
You could sing, move into flank and then demoralize. That’s a +4 swing, a 20% higher chance of both hitting and critting for at least double damage. All things a bard can do and excel at. And not even touching on their spell list which shouldn’t be ignored. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have some means of offense. Just that it’s not necessarily necessary to use all the time.
I haven’t seen enough aid use in combat to say how well it works. With the right feats though I could see it being very effective, particularly against a boss.
I would take care picking out focus spells, mostly because you’ll spend most of your adventure unable to sustainability use more than one a fight. Some like lingering performance have seen some good use at my tables though.
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I'm very partial to Gnomes. In addition to Cha, I believe they have very good ancestry feats. Familiars are awesome. If it's your schtick, talking to animals is great. Getting a primal cantrip gives you some versatility, and you are a CHA class so it'll be as strong as any Bard cantrip until you hit expert in Primal casting.
Good news, you'll always be just as good using that cantrip. Here's a link to the rules:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=279
Here's the rules thread addressing it:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qqs?Quick-question-about-Innate-spells#1
I like gnome, elf, or human ancestries for the Bard in order to pick up electric arc. Adopted ancestry would work fine as well.
As to the question of whether full support works, I'll comment that my full support Bard in a mostly 5 person party has regularly been the MVP. As long as you've got 2 martials to buff, the Bard really shines.
I'll second the Maestro muse primary into picking up Polymath. Lingering composition really helps smooth the play style. Soothe is also way better than unseen servant. I also think the Maestro options are more fundamental to the class on case you want to retain later.
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@Castilliano
I’d actually say that being a support focused character is both easier to successfully pull off and more impactful in PF2 than 1. In 1 a bard’s song at my table was very rarely high enough to matter with the numbers that were going around. In 2 the tighter math means the numbers stay relevant. Support in PF1 was largely limited to some song and then you just slapped out buff spells until you ran dry. There are far more options here.
You could sing, move into flank and then demoralize. That’s a +4 swing, a 20% higher chance of both hitting and critting for at least double damage. All things a bard can do and excel at. And not even touching on their spell list which shouldn’t be ignored. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have some means of offense. Just that it’s not necessarily necessary to use all the time.
I haven’t seen enough aid use in combat to say how well it works. With the right feats though I could see it being very effective, particularly against a boss.
I would take care picking out focus spells, mostly because you’ll spend most of your adventure unable to sustainability use more than one a fight. Some like lingering performance have seen some good use at my tables though.
My emphasis was on the "pure" part. I immediately wrote that support is easy, it's just a PC should be able to contribute directly as well (and on the same round in most cases). Having Magic Missile as a Signature Spell & an offensive Cantrip might even be enough on their own.
I disagree w/ your assessment of PF1, since a Haste, Dim. Door, or Communal Resist Energy were support spells that could sharply swing an encounter. There's nothing similar in PF2 against normal or superior enemies w/o some significant luck. And w/ an Extend Rod (or 3, which my support PC used), you could pre-buff the party through a dozen battles if you could keep them moving.
I think sending an 8 h.p./level PC into flanking position would be a suboptimal choice, not just dangerous, but perhaps stealing the spot from somebody else that would use it. Sing/Demoralize/Shortbow (or Shield or move) would be wiser in a modest battle. Sing/Spell in a tougher battle (where you definitely don't want to move forward!)
Picking up a non-Bard Focus Spell may be worth going into another class, most likely Sorcerer if using offensively (if there is a good Occult one that is). Innate Cantrips, since they work off of Cha, are another thing to consider to get Electric Arc (near) or Ray of Frost (far).
Castlilliano makes a good point. I should note that it wasn't my intention to never engage in offense, but rather was just acknowledging that I would be looking at doing a fair amount of support. Quite frankly doing pure support 100% of the time would likely, in my opinion, be boring. As such, I really do appreciate the advice, especially since I'm still wrapping my head around the new ruleset. I've been DM'ing Kingmaker for years now but hadn't even cracked PF2 before about a week ago and man is it a different system!