After 'Agents of Edgewatch'


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion

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Grand Lodge

Usually we learn about the next AP at PaizoCon; I was wondering when we will learn about what AP will follow Agents of Edgewatch.

Thanks!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
W E Ray wrote:

Usually we learn about the next AP at PaizoCon; I was wondering when we will learn about what AP will follow Agents of Edgewatch.

Thanks!

Probably during Paizocon 2020 Online?


Are we due a traditional or experimental AP after AoE?


mikeawmids wrote:
Are we due a traditional or experimental AP after AoE?

With luck, something set far, far away from the traditional core of the setting. I’m really hoping for a Mwangi AP.

Shadow Lodge

mikeawmids wrote:
Are we due a traditional or experimental AP after AoE?

Pretty sure they don't hew to this so schematically anymore.


zimmerwald1915 wrote:
mikeawmids wrote:
Are we due a traditional or experimental AP after AoE?
Pretty sure they don't hew to this so schematically anymore.

I don't know if it was ever a hard and fast rule, so much as an editorial preference to balance "how much we experiment" and "how much we do stuff we know works."

But even the "experimental" APs are a mix of "stuff we're trying" and "stuff we know works."

Shadow Lodge

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
mikeawmids wrote:
Are we due a traditional or experimental AP after AoE?
Pretty sure they don't hew to this so schematically anymore.

I don't know if it was ever a hard and fast rule, so much as an editorial preference to balance "how much we experiment" and "how much we do stuff we know works."

But even the "experimental" APs are a mix of "stuff we're trying" and "stuff we know works."

In any event, after Agents of Edgewatch, we'll have had two back-to-back APs in Absalom and its hinterlands, with Tyrant's Grasp spending significant time and attention on it as well. It'd be nice to get away for a bit.

Personally I just hope whatever AP they decide gives them a reason to map a hitherto unmapped nation or empire/culture group embracing multiple nations. Kelesh, Vudra, Holomog, Degasi. . .

I like maps.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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We'll be announcing post-Agents of Edgewatch Adventure Path stuff at Paizocon Online in a few weeks.

Grand Lodge

Thanks everyone.

(I haven’t been following it, didn’t know about PaizoCon-Online.)

Developer

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Whoo boy, am I excited to share this with you all!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Ron Lundeen wrote:
Whoo boy, am I excited to share this with you all!

I'll be lurking!

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

At which event will it be announced?


John Spalding wrote:
At which event will it be announced?

They're doing streams right now.


John Spalding wrote:
At which event will it be announced?

My guess would be the Adventure Path Design panel, Thursday 2-4 Paizo time. It says they'll "reveal some secrets about Paizo's forthcoming Adventure Paths."

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Joana wrote:
John Spalding wrote:
At which event will it be announced?
My guess would be the Adventure Path Design panel, Thursday 2-4 Paizo time. It says they'll "reveal some secrets about Paizo's forthcoming Adventure Paths."

That guess would be correct. As far as I understand the plot, at least.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Ron Lundeen wrote:
Whoo boy, am I excited to share this with you all!
I'll be lurking!

Me too!


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For those of you not on Twitch right now: 2 three-part APs, Abomination Vaults and then Fist(s?) of the Ruby Phoenix. The first one is a megadungeon outside of Otari on the Isle of Kortos that goes to 11th-level; the second one, in Tian Xia, goes from 11 to 20.

Honestly, neither one of those sounds interesting to me ... which is okay, since I'm running 2 PbPs of Age of Ashes and will be running Agents of Edgewatch IRL.


Joana wrote:

For those of you not on Twitch right now: 2 three-part APs, Abomination Vaults and then Fist(s?) of the Ruby Phoenix. The first one is a megadungeon outside of Otari on the Isle of Kortos that goes to 11th-level; the second one, in Tian Xia, goes from 11 to 20.

Honestly, neither one of those sounds interesting to me ... which is okay, since I'm running 2 PbPs of Age of Ashes and will be running Agents of Edgewatch IRL.

Our 2e introduction to fantasy Asia being a martial arts tournament... kinda sucks, right? Feels very stereotypical in a way they've been trying to get away from.

EDIT: I'm curious; are any Asian authors contributing to this AP?


keftiu wrote:
Joana wrote:

For those of you not on Twitch right now: 2 three-part APs, Abomination Vaults and then Fist(s?) of the Ruby Phoenix. The first one is a megadungeon outside of Otari on the Isle of Kortos that goes to 11th-level; the second one, in Tian Xia, goes from 11 to 20.

Honestly, neither one of those sounds interesting to me ... which is okay, since I'm running 2 PbPs of Age of Ashes and will be running Agents of Edgewatch IRL.

Our 2e introduction to fantasy Asia being a martial arts tournament... kinda sucks, right? Feels very stereotypical in a way they've been trying to get away from.

I'm with you. Hopefully it isn't a rehash of the module I've already run. And generating adventures for levels 1-9 sounds like a great time.


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I've never run a megadungeon, nor do I think I have players who are interested in playing one, sadly... but that sounds so cool. Sad it's only 3 long but I get why they don't want to go a whole six months of heavy crawl AP.

The other one doesn't really intrigue me at this point. The pitch was a little mild so perhaps it's got more twists and stuff to it, who knows.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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And... this makes six APs in a row that don't interest me. Fist of the Ruby Phoenix is the closest, and I'm skeptical that it might be too focused on the tournament part.


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Cydeth wrote:
And... this makes six APs in a row that don't interest me. Fist of the Ruby Phoenix is the closest, and I'm skeptical that it might be too focused on the tournament part.

The decision to spend 15 months of publishing in the same general geographic location is certainly not one I'm in love with.


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keftiu wrote:
Cydeth wrote:
And... this makes six APs in a row that don't interest me. Fist of the Ruby Phoenix is the closest, and I'm skeptical that it might be too focused on the tournament part.
The decision to spend 15 months of publishing in the same general geographic location is certainly not one I'm in love with.

It's a little puzzling but at least the Abomination Vaults won't be particularly Kortosy, since it will be delving into a megadungeon.

But add in Troubles in Otari and Dead God's Hand, and that is frankly a wild amount of Absalom or Kortos-centric stuff.

Shadow Lodge

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keftiu wrote:
Our 2e introduction to fantasy Asia being a martial arts tournament... kinda sucks, right? Feels very stereotypical in a way they've been trying to get away from.

(The abandonment of pulpy stereotyping in design, and of cliche plots in story construction, was all in your head - a matter of wishful thinking and of setting material being tantalizingly vague enough to flesh out with your imagination. It was never real.)

Count me uninterested in these as well. Kortos is done absolutely to death (the most interesting thing to me about Extinction Curse is how the farmers got organized; I will be ignoring Agents of Edgewatch on principle), and I have little faith that Fists of the Ruby Phoenix won't be a rehash and expansion of a certain well-regarded module.


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I want to thank Paizo for doing a "Martial Arts Tournament" mini-AP just for me.

Meh on the megadungeon (it's just "not for me"), but I am all for the other one. Definitely more than the "let's be cops" one.

Shadow Lodge

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Ice Titan wrote:
And generating adventures for levels 1-9 sounds like a great time.

Of all possible complaints, this one is the most bizarre. You can just start at level 11.


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Sporkedup wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Cydeth wrote:
And... this makes six APs in a row that don't interest me. Fist of the Ruby Phoenix is the closest, and I'm skeptical that it might be too focused on the tournament part.
The decision to spend 15 months of publishing in the same general geographic location is certainly not one I'm in love with.

It's a little puzzling but at least the Abomination Vaults won't be particularly Kortosy, since it will be delving into a megadungeon.

But add in Troubles in Otari and Dead God's Hand, and that is frankly a wild amount of Absalom or Kortos-centric stuff.

I guess Kortos is the new Varisia? ;)

In fairness, people begged for Absalom material all through the P1e era. It's just all getting here at once.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Paizo has spent a zillion months doing Varisia, time for the area that's supposed to be at the centre of the setting to get its due.

Also, I called that it if after years of "gives us a proper takes place in Tian Xia AP, not some journey from the West" the first thing that will happen after the announcement will be "NUUUUU THIS IS NOT PROPER ENOUGH!"


It's kind of odd that we're doing like 15 months straight of the Isle of Kortos, but given that it's supposed to be the fulcrum of the setting and how little time we spent there in PF1 I get it.


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Gorbacz wrote:

Paizo has spent a zillion months doing Varisia, time for the area that's supposed to be at the centre of the setting to get its due.

Also, I called that it if after years of "gives us a proper takes place in Tian Xia AP, not some journey from the West" the first thing that will happen after the announcement will be "NUUUUU THIS IS NOT PROPER ENOUGH!"

This is kind of a wild take. I want them to explore Tian Xia to show the diverse influences that too often get ignored in whitewashed Western fantasy; "this is us trying to do Mortal Kombat" isn't that.


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But I mean, the whole "Martial Arts Tournament" thing isn't exactly inauthentically Asian, since the earliest appearance I can find of the trope is in the 1976 Hong Kong film "Master of the Flying Guillotine". Plus I mean, sure it's white guys behind Mortal Kombat, but who makes Tekken, Street Fighter, etc.?

If you want to an exploration of the rich cultures of Tian Xia, a 3 issue AP is not the place to do it. Consider this a test run for interest in a full Tian Xia AP.


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How are martial arts tournaments not part of a diverse influence that makes up Tian Xia? Also, they're not just trying to do Mortal Kombat, there's also Dragon Ball (which was made in Japan) and Kung Fu Hustle (which I think was made in China); Like clearly these type of things are part of real world Asian culture, and makes for a type of adventure that they haven't touched on yet. Hell, the tournament arc is a common trope of shonen anime.

Shadow Lodge

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Gorbacz wrote:
Also, I called that it if after years of "gives us a proper takes place in Tian Xia AP, not some journey from the West" the first thing that will happen after the announcement will be "NUUUUU THIS IS NOT PROPER ENOUGH!"

Being impossible to please is a virtue.

The problem people had with Jade Regent was its Orientalism. The setup in not-Europe, and presumption of not-European PCs, was a particularly bad manifestation of the Orientalist framing, but it is not the only one possible. Leaning hard into stereotypes in the portrayal of a people is another, even if your viewpoint characters are not foreign to that people.


Ice Titan wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Joana wrote:

For those of you not on Twitch right now: 2 three-part APs, Abomination Vaults and then Fist(s?) of the Ruby Phoenix. The first one is a megadungeon outside of Otari on the Isle of Kortos that goes to 11th-level; the second one, in Tian Xia, goes from 11 to 20.

Honestly, neither one of those sounds interesting to me ... which is okay, since I'm running 2 PbPs of Age of Ashes and will be running Agents of Edgewatch IRL.

Our 2e introduction to fantasy Asia being a martial arts tournament... kinda sucks, right? Feels very stereotypical in a way they've been trying to get away from.
I'm with you. Hopefully it isn't a rehash of the module I've already run. And generating adventures for levels 1-9 sounds like a great time.

What is the level 1-9 comment about? Do you mean being frustrated you have to come up with things to get the characters to a point where they can start the Tia Xia one? Or have I misunderstood

Shadow Lodge

ekaczmarek wrote:
Kung Fu Hustle (which I think was made in China)

But produced and distributed by Columbia Pictures.


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
ekaczmarek wrote:
Kung Fu Hustle (which I think was made in China)
But produced and distributed by Columbia Pictures.

Directed by a Chinese director, starred numerous Hong Kong actors, and produced by Beijing Film Studio and Hong Kong's Star Overseas. It is a film made by Asian people about a part of Asian culture.


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Hong Kong has been putting out "martial arts tournament" films targeted at a non-western audience (despite what interest they attract in the west) since the 70s.

This is actually an efficient way to showcase "Tian Xia has a lot of different cultures" since you do that, in the tradition of "Master of the Flying Guillotine" (or "Street Fighter 2") by "having participants in the tournament be from a variety of places."

I mean, Master of the Flying Guillotine did have a chinese guy in some truly atrocious brownface portraying the "master of yoga" fighter.

Wayfinders

Next AP will be in Iobaria.

I bet on it

Liberty's Edge

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Yeah...martial arts tournaments are not an inauthentic part of Asian culture, and their inclusion thus seems fine to me.

You could certainly do such a thing badly, and some Asian authors would definitely be a good thing, but the very concept is not any more objectionable than the inclusion of a ball game (an inspiration taken from real world Native American cultures) in Xopatl (something mentioned previously).

I'd certainly also like to see other Tian Xia plots that aren't a martial arts tournament, but they're actually trapped by timing to do this now or never (or, well, not for some time anyway). They've made a decision a long time ago to have real-world and in-game years pass at the same rate, and have the Ruby Phoenix Tournament coming up by the in-game clock, so they either need to do an AP based on it now or miss their chance.

Shadow Lodge

Deadmanwalking wrote:
They've made a decision a long time ago to have real-world and in-game years pass at the same rate, and have the Ruby Phoenix Tournament coming up by the in-game clock, so they either need to do an AP based on it now or miss their chance.

The Swallowtail Festival is an annual event, and yet somehow Paizo manages to keep themselves from setting an AP in Sandpoint every year. Thirty-odd Ruby Phoenix Tournaments have come and gone entirely unremarked. This one could have too. As you say, there is no dearth of things to do in Than Xia.


But if you actually wanted to return to the Ruby Phoenix Tournament (which was a popular module, as I recall) then you need to do that 10 years after the last time you did it.

You can almost anything else in Tian Xia, but if this is what you want to do then that is when you can do it.

I mean, we want this "half an AP" for Tian Xia is better than what we've seen for Arcadia, Garund, or Casmaron so far.

Shadow Lodge

PossibleCabbage wrote:

But if you actually wanted to return to the Ruby Phoenix Tournament (which was a popular module, as I recall) then you need to do that 10 years after the last time you did it.

You can almost anything else in Tian Xia, but if this is what you want to do then that is when you can do it.

Actually no. Book 1 of Fist of the Ruby Phoenix is, it seems, supposed to come out in April 2021. The Ruby Phoenix Tournament came out in January 2012. If Paizo was aiming for a ten-year anniversary, they're off by about nine months.

Liberty's Edge

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
The Swallowtail Festival is an annual event, and yet somehow Paizo manages to keep themselves from setting an AP in Sandpoint every year. Thirty-odd Ruby Phoenix Tournaments have come and gone entirely unremarked. This one could have too. As you say, there is no dearth of things to do in Than Xia.

My point, as PossibleCabbage notes, was not that they had to do the Ruby Phoenix Tournament, it was that if they did want to do it, it had to be around the time they're currently doing it (or they had to wait 10 years).

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Actually no. Book 1 of Fist of the Ruby Phoenix is, it seems, supposed to come out in April 2021. The Ruby Phoenix Tournament came out in January 2012. If Paizo was aiming for a ten-year anniversary, they're off by about nine months.

Sure. But the module specifically occurred in-universe in 4711 (several dates are referenced in it), and the APs have always been much more tightly linked to such dating lining up with the real world than the module line.

So, yeah, if they wanted to do it as an AP, it needed to be early to mid 2021.


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I'm a sucker for martial arts movies and fighting games, so I'm psyched for the Ruby Tournament. The vaults one sounds interesting, though I'll admit, I'm a bit Absalom fatigued. But a three part megadungeon sounds interesting.

Liberty's Edge

I didn't get to catch the stream, so to clarify - do we know that Fists is actually going to be a martial arts tournament story? Or could the tournament just be a framing setting for something else?

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