It is very easy to garner from just searching the web, and from frequenting forums, the Witch class is not one that gets the most attention.
The most common sentiment expressed is "You can't make a bad Witch"
Anyway, as someone who is playing a Witch (One of the following archetypes) it got me thinking, their archetypes are not discussed enough.
What better way to get that rolling than with a classic Top 3
My top 3 are
1 - Involker
2 - Ashiftah
It is very easy to garner from just searching the web, and from frequenting forums, the Witch class is not one that gets the most attention.
I agree and think their power and versatility is under appreciated. You seem to be another witch fan Minigiant.
And it is fairly easy to build an effective witch. Make some sensible and fairly obvious choices as to race, ability scores and hexes. The hardest bit is selecting an archetype, if any. Many archetypes cost you a lot, often a lot of hexes, and don't give much in return.
Hexes are excellent for dealing with single opponents,albeit one at a time and at close range. Most aggressive hexes can target each creature once a day, which means they never run out. the save scales with level and at level 10 you can take the split hex feat, allowing you to affect 2 targets per action.
IMHO this makes witches the most powerful of the arcane casters as low and medium levels. wizard's and arcanist's more powerful spell list eventually allows them to catch up and maybe go ahead. But that is at high level where most campaigns do not reach.
The fact you can use hexes where another arcane caster would have to use spells means your spells last longer and can be set aside for tasks you can't do with hexes like hurting groups.
The fact witches, unlike other arcane casters get healing and reviving spells allows them to cover for lacking a divine caster. Imperfectly sure, but much better than other arcane casters.
Archetypes? My list is a bit different and I believe the Ashtifah is no one by some way.
1 - Ashiftah Ghostwalk is just brilliant.
2 Winter Witch- has an almost unique ability to get past DR. A specialist leading to the prestige class of the same name can be made very powerful.
3 - Invoker
1. Synergist. You can conveniently keep your familiar safe all day, and, with improved familiar, you can eventually gain some nice abilities like extra senses, resistances and all day flight.
2. Hedge Witch. Spontaneous healing is very helpful on a prepared class where you can never be sure if the spells you prepared are going to be useful. Empathic Healing is good triage for keeping someone alive while you try to make them better.
3. Winter Witch. It just looks cool.
1. Ashifta - Ghost Walk & Fog of War are both amazing. Delivering touch spells at range with scraps of veil is cool, if slow. Of course, you're probably invisible while doing it... Veil vs. Familiar has advantages & disadvantages and feels like an even trade.
2. Herb Witch - Herb Lore is excellent for removing conditions, poisons & disease. Combine with Hedge Witch, Healing patron and even Hex Channeler for the ultimate healer-witch...
3. Cartomancer - Mystic fortune teller vibe, Spell Deck, Deadly Dealer, throwing cards at people to deliver touch spells...
I really can't argue with ashiftah or invoker, they're good however you look at them. The third best is more arguable though and I'm going to name something different - a ley line guardian makes a witch a familiar-free spontaneous caster with a caster level boost. This is different and useful IMO.
It's pretty easy to play a witch badly if not to make one badly - they can be the most fragile character class in PF, and if you make it focused on mind-affecting stuff they can lack offence as well in many situations.
It is very easy to garner from just searching the web, and from frequenting forums, the Witch class is not one that gets the most attention.I agree and think their power and versatility is under appreciated. You seem to be another witch fan Minigiant.
I am indeed big fan of Witches, I think they really struggle image wise though. One they come with a lot of thematic baggage e.g A lot of people struggle to think of what a male Witch might look like.
As soon as you start thinking of Witches as Warlocks, the class makes more sense I feel.
And it is fairly easy to build an effective witch. Make some sensible and fairly obvious choices as to race, ability scores and hexes. The hardest bit is selecting an archetype, if any. Many archetypes cost you a lot, often a lot of hexes, and don't give much in return.
They struggle under what I coin the God-Wizard effect. A lot of classes have a lot of powerful archetype selection whereas the Witch has a lot of thematic selections.
Hexes are excellent for dealing with single opponents,albeit one at a time and at close range. Most aggressive hexes can target each creature once a day, which means they never run out. the save scales with level and at level 10 you can take the split hex feat, allowing you to affect 2 targets per action.
Now this is where I am a big supporter of the Protective Luck+Soothsayer+Cackle as it is an exponential combo. Hex^AE where T is how many allies you have, and E is how many enemies you are facing.
The strongest hexes all have that once per 24 hours clause, which I personally get around by playing a summoner (Summon Monster). I can freely fortune them as much as I like because I just get a new one back next time. Saving Fortune on my teammates for dire situations, and bosses.
The scaling DC of hexes is great, and I think that is why the Invoker is so popular, as it is effectively a Spell Focus for their hexes
IMHO this makes witches the most powerful of the arcane casters as low and medium levels. wizard's and arcanist's more powerful spell list eventually allows them to catch up and maybe go ahead. But that is at high level where most campaigns do not reach.
The fact you can use hexes where another arcane caster would have to use spells means your spells last longer and can be set aside for tasks you can't do with hexes like hurting groups.
Hexes in essence makes you a Sorcerer in that you Spam the same thing over and over, just with backup utility spells. This is indeed why they are great at low to medium levels. They have more actions than a regular wizard. Eventually though their action economy becomes obsolete as full prepared casters make up for it in their number of spell slot.
If you are never going to get through 40 spells a day, having hexes on top doesn't give you the endurance you had at lower levels
The fact witches, unlike other arcane casters get healing and reviving spells allows them to cover for lacking a divine caster. Imperfectly sure, but much better than other arcane casters.
The Witch I think is a great backup healer, I reserve a couple of healing spells solely for our healer, in case they go down
Archetypes? My list is a bit different and I believe the Ashtifah is no one by some way.
1 - Ashiftah Ghostwalk is just brilliant.
2 Winter Witch- has an almost unique ability to get past DR. A specialist leading to the prestige class of the same name can be made very powerful.
3 - Invoker
I keep coming back to Ghostwalk when I try and conceptualize a God-Witch. Transfering your cackle to a standard action, you can effectively 5ft over any distance with a +20 stealth (Of course you need a trait to gain stealth, being small could be great too, maybe a Hellcat Witch).
Could you explain your Winter Witch comment further, I don't quiet see how it bypasses DR
It's pretty easy to play a witch badly if not to make one badly - they can be the most fragile character class in PF, and if you make it focused on mind-affecting stuff they can lack offence as well in many situations.
They are indeed incredibly fragile, and I think by looking at everyones favourite archetypes, you see people are happy to lose the liability which is the Witch's familiar
1) vanilla
2) pre-errata scarred witch doctor
3) synergist
1) vanilla
2) pre-errata scarred witch doctor
3) synergist
100% in a low point buy game, pre-errata witch doctor is the most powerful archetype.
I currently play a post errata one, and that +2 INT is great because it broke the starting stat limit of 18
Hexes are excellent for dealing with single opponents,albeit one at a time and at close range. Most aggressive hexes can target each creature once a day, which means they never run out. the save scales with level and at level 10 you can take the split hex feat, allowing you to affect 2 targets per action.
The scaling DC of hexes is great, and I think that is why the Invoker is so popular, as it is effectively a Spell Focus for their hexes
IMHO this makes witches the most powerful of the arcane casters as low and medium levels. wizard's and arcanist's more powerful spell list eventually allows them to catch up and maybe go ahead. But that is at high level where most campaigns do not reach.
The fact you can use hexes where another arcane caster would have to use spells means your spells last longer and can be set aside for tasks you can't do with hexes like hurting groups.
Hexes in essence makes you a Sorcerer in that you Spam the same thing over and over, just with backup utility spells. This is indeed why they are great at low to medium levels. They have more actions than a regular wizard. Eventually though their action economy becomes obsolete as full prepared casters make up for it in their number of spell slot.
If you are never going to get through 40 spells a day, having hexes on top doesn't give you the endurance you had at lower levels
Precisely. At high levels hexes go from being endurance to another option, still good but not vastly better. The power gap between a witch with 2 spells and slumber hex and, say , a wizard with 3 spells, is really extreme.
The fact witches, unlike other arcane casters get healing and reviving spells allows them to cover for lacking a divine caster. Imperfectly sure, but much better than other arcane casters.
The Witch I think is a great backup healer, I reserve a couple of healing spells solely for our healer, in case they go down
Could you explain your Winter Witch comment further, I don't quiet see how it bypasses DR
My mistake , my post didn't say what it ws meant to. :(
It is the Winter Witch prestige class that can do that, with the following class features."Unnatural Cold (Su)
At 3rd level, whenever a winter witch’s spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability deals cold damage, treat affected creatures as having half their normal cold resistance when determining the damage dealt.
Unearthly Cold (Su)
At 8th level, a winter witch’s spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities that deal cold damage become horrendously cold. Half the cold damage caused by these effects comes from an otherworldly power and is not subject to being reduced by resistance or immunity to cold-based attacks."
My mistake , my post didn't say what it ws meant to. :(
It is the Winter Witch prestige class that can do that, with the following class features."Unnatural Cold (Su)
At 3rd level, whenever a winter witch’s spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability deals cold damage, treat affected creatures as having half their normal cold resistance when determining the damage dealt.Unearthly Cold (Su)
At 8th level, a winter witch’s spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities that deal cold damage become horrendously cold. Half the cold damage caused by these effects comes from an otherworldly power and is not subject to being reduced by resistance or immunity to cold-based attacks."
Ah, I had not given that, that much thought until now. It is an interesting trade off. Trading away those high end hexes, and the scaling DC of your lower hexes (Suppose the Cackle+Protective Luck+Soothsayer combo doesn't need the DC) for some more oomph to your arcane spells.
It is just a shame that the Archetype by the same name doesn't allow you to trade away your familiar (What every Witch Min-Maxer should be doing IMHO)
Familiars can be useful, notably for the old wand of ill omen trick & similar. With a stone familiar to backup your spells losing your familiar is painful but not roll up a new character painful. Having a familiar is generally a good thing, it's when it's your spellbook as well that you should be paranoid.
Edit: BTW the winter witch PrC scales hexes just fine and even adds new ones and more powerful ones at the same rate as a normal witch. It loses one level of spellcasting (or you pay 2 feats to get that back) and loses a bunch of patron spells.
Edit: BTW the winter witch PrC scales hexes just fine and even adds new ones and more powerful ones at the same rate as a normal witch. It loses one level of spellcasting (or you pay 2 feats to get that back) and loses a bunch of patron spells.
I hadn't spotted that, thank you
The bad parts of the familiar can eventually be mitigated with the merge with familiar spell.
Familiars can be useful, notably for the old wand of ill omen trick & similar. With a stone familiar to backup your spells losing your familiar is painful but not roll up a new character painful. Having a familiar is generally a good thing, it's when it's your spellbook as well that you should be paranoid.
The best place for a witch's familiar is hiding somewhere near the ceiling three rooms behind the party. Mine spent ost of Strange Aeons refusing to go anywhere until the rest of the party had cleared the room for her.
The best place for a witch's familiar is hiding somewhere near the ceiling three rooms behind the party. Mine spent ost of Strange Aeons refusing to go anywhere until the rest of the party had cleared the room for her.
The familiar satchel at low level and the merge with familiar spell at higher level should take care of almost anything you'd be worried about your familiar being exposed to. I'm not even sure if an anti-magic field can get to a merged familiar. I think the familiar would be more likely to simply be stuck/safe until you get out of the field.
Honestly, keeping your familiar distant from your party sounds like you're just daring the GM to kidnap the thing. It's lucky your GM was so nice.
The bad parts of the familiar can eventually be mitigated with the merge with familiar spell.
At higher levels, the spell just becomes one of your utility spells, and would hardly ever impact your combat effectiveness
Side question while I am unable to check for myself: Does the Ashiftah Archetype stack with Winter Witch?
It's lucky your GM was so nice.
Personally, I don't go for my players' familiars unless they're (i.e. the familiar,) being annoying. A cat running around its master's feet, I won't touch. An ill omen wand wielding imp, I'd crush with glee.
Ashiftah replaces your familiar, winter witch forces to you take a familiar from a cold region. I don't think they stack.
So a topic to continue this thread?
What is the "best" archetype stack?
Invoker + Ashiftah ?
Invoker + Winter Witch into Winter Witch (PrC) ?
Those are the two combinations that stand out to me
I suspect the best archetype stack as you put it is Invoker + Winter Witch into Winter Witch (PrC).
Invoker + Ashiftah trades away 6 of the witch's first 9 hexes, including all but one of the basic hexes, that gained at level 4. Despite being able to take the extra hex feat multiple times to replace basic hexes, this is going to hurt you at a lot of levels.
I saw a good build for a Invoker + Winter Witch into Winter Witch (PrC) with a one level dip into cross blooded sorcerer, orc and white dragon bloodlines, giving +2 damage per die on cold spells.
I can't find the thing now, but it was a good focused ice blaster build which if I recall rightly didn't even take slumber hex. Feats went into making ice blasting better.
Since it was put online, blood havoc has been published that allows a further +1 dice/ level. Take magical knack as a trait. This is one good candidate for the most powerful witch at level 20 imho.
You suffer at lower levels somewhat due to building towards a good end.
I think the witch with the most power consistently at all levels from 1 to 20 is the ashtifah. You get good, immediate value for the 2 hexes you give up, so it is very good at all levels.
Most or all of the other archetypes considered here are also very good and the "vanilla" witch is not to be underestimated.
Best race/s anyone?
a one level dip into cross blooded sorcerer, orc and white dragon bloodlines, giving +2 damage per die on cold spells.
Since it was put online, blood havoc has been published that allows a further +1 dice/ level.
Does that mean a 1 level dip into sorcerer can give +3 damage per die?
You can't combine blood havoc with cross blooded at level 1. They both alter your bloodline powers, so conflict under alternate class ability rules. But a cross blooded sorcerer can still take blood havoc at level 7 in place of a bloodline feat.
Blood Havoc cannot be combined with Crossblooded powers unfortunately, and in addition to that it specifically only works with Sorcerer spells.
However, if you want the +3 per dice, Crossblooded for +2, then Invokers 'Reckoning' for an extra +1
My biggest concern with a Witch Blaster is unlike Wizards, and to a lesser extent Sorcerers, Witchs don't gain any bonus feats
Frozen caress and the invoker ability compete slightly for your swift action. Eventually both compete with quicken spell too.
As blasters witches have a few problems, but I think the biggest may be a lack of spell slots. They're wizards without an arcane school (+1/level) or an arcane bond (+1, any level) in that regard. Blasters go thru spell slots really quickly.
I think a vanilla witch, an invoker w/out stacking, or an ashiftah or ley line guardian might be better than winter witch - even if winter winter witch witch looks like it's free class features, they're drawing a witch to something she's not that great at doing.
I think a vanilla witch, an invoker w/out stacking, or an ashiftah or ley line guardian might be better than winter witch - even if winter winter witch witch looks like it's free class features, they're drawing a witch to something she's not that great at doing.
The Invoker is a bit of a conundrum in that its 'Invoke Patron' ability is so varied. It can be a benefit to any playstyle (I guess thats why it gives up so much) but, what I am most interested in, is its 'Curiosity'
abilityCuriosity: The DCs of the invoker’s hexes and patron spells increase by 1. These DCs increase by an additional 1 at 8th level and 16th level.
What Patron has the best spells to benefit from this do you think?
M first thought was Shadow or Trickery (Both Illusion Magic) could ou imagine misfortuning something, and then throwing some of those nasty illusions at them
Blood Havoc cannot be combined with Crossblooded powers unfortunately, and in addition to that it specifically only works with Sorcerer spells.
My biggest concern with a Witch Blaster is unlike Wizards, and to a lesser extent Sorcerers, Witchs don't gain any bonus feats
My mistake about Blood Havoc. Our group has been doing it wrong.
Valid point with some similarity to what I was saying about archetypes that gobble a lot of your hexes. See below.
As blasters witches have a few problems, but I think the biggest may be a lack of spell slots. They're wizards without an arcane school (+1/level) or an arcane bond (+1, any level) in that regard. Blasters go thru spell slots really quickly.
I think a vanilla witch, an invoker w/out stacking, or an ashiftah or ley line guardian might be better than winter witch - even if winter winter witch witch looks like it's free class features, they're drawing a witch to something she's not that great at doing.
Valid point. Rings of wizardry will help a lot.
Another drawback to the blaster witch is the spell list lacks some of the best blast spells.
The winter witch build I am referring to, and can't find, dammit, is very focused on doing damage, adding debuffs, rime spell et al, and getting past saves,DR and spell resistance. It can't do anything else well, but it does that very well. Typical of the specialised builds that are most powerful at high levels.
If you want something utterly terrifying, play gestalt with the winter witch build on one side and an Aeromancer Arcanist on the other.
My mistake about Blood Havoc. Our group has been doing it wrong.
Valid point with some similarity to what I was saying about archetypes that gobble a lot of your hexes. See below.
Gnome Witches could potentially alleviate that problem as their Favored Class Bonus
Witch: The witch gains 1/6 of a new witch hex.
Rings of wizardry are absurdly expensive. Like not really affordable before they're obsolete expensive. If your specialised spell is 3rd level you're talking about a 70K item after all. That's half your standard WBL at character level 13, by which time you'll be adding enough metamagic to make your specialised spell use a higher level spell slot if you're a serious blaster. A pearl of power or two is expensive for the effect but may actually be usable.
The limited spell list is painful but possible to work with - a blaster just needs two spells, one to specialise in and one to cover gaps and to not look like a one trick pony (even if you are...) Between patron spells and other tricks you can find something.
As to what an invoker witch could make most use of - yes, trickery is good, but more due to the mirror image than the spells with saves. Shadow's good from 8th level. If you're starting your witch from a low level then aurora has better attack spells, or elements if you're getting into blast spells somehow.
As to what an invoker witch could make most use of - yes, trickery is good, but more due to the mirror image than the spells with saves. Shadow's good from 8th level. If you're starting your witch from a low level then aurora has better attack spells, or elements if you're getting into blast spells somehow.
I can't seem to shake the idea that a
Gnome Ashiftah Invoker Illusionist could be extremely powerful. Take the Trickery Patron with the Infernal Contract. Highlander for Stealth as a Class Skill. Hellcat Stealth at level 7. You should have some really High DCs while "Sniping" and remaining hidden.
Hexes like Misfortune, Evil Eye, and Swine should almost guarantee that nothing sees through the illusions.
I think parts of your plan are over elaborate Minigiant. Getting stealth as a class skill is good imho.
But taking hellcat stealth, for which you need skill focus stealth, already costs you 2 feats. And hellcat stealth just allows you to make Stealth checks in normal or bright light even when observed, but at a -10 penalty. Do you really need that if you are an ashtifah? And how effective is it? Is it worth 2 feats?
Secondly, in combat, how many actions does all this take? Putting those 3 hexes on an enemy takes 3 turns, per enemy, then you cast an illusion.
I think it better to misfortune your foes then start taking them out with slumber or spells.
If you are all that your party consists of then setting up some long plan like this from stealth might work. If you're working with others then you have to deal with stuff like your allies not being as stealthy, or players not willing to wait for half an hour plus real time while you set it up.
Secondly, in combat, how many actions does all this take? Putting those 3 hexes on an enemy takes 3 turns, per enemy, then you cast an illusion.
My intention was never to cast all three then drop Illusion, I was referring to those three hexes as a possibly 1-2 hit with an illusion spell coming second.