Of runes and low-quality items...


Rules Discussion

Dark Archive

I am a bit confused to have discovered you apparently can etch runes on common, even low-quality items? For example, if I discovered a runestone with a potency rune on it, I could etch it on a rusty orc scimitar, right? There is nothing in the rules that would prevent it, I think, since the only requirements are that I need to have X gold pieces + the "formula" for the rune (and the downtime to do it). It may be implied that part of the price is to pay for a high-quality item, such a "masterwork" weapon to etch the rune upon, but it is not once mentioned or clearly spelled out in the text, at least not to my knowledge. Does it really work this way per RAW, or have I misunderstood something?

And what does it mean I need to have "the formula" for a rune? Are they supposed to be discovered, or does it refer to the level requirement or the rune(stone) itself?


Asgetrion wrote:

I am a bit confused to have discovered you apparently can etch runes on common, even low-quality items? For example, if I discovered a runestone with a potency rune on it, I could etch it on a rusty orc scimitar, right? There is nothing in the rules that would prevent it, I think, since the only requirements are that I need to have X gold pieces + the "formula" for the rune (and the downtime to do it). It may be implied that part of the price is to pay for a high-quality item, such a "masterwork" weapon to etch the rune upon, but it is not once mentioned or clearly spelled out in the text, at least not to my knowledge. Does it really work this way per RAW, or have I misunderstood something?

And what does it mean I need to have "the formula" for a rune? Are they supposed to be discovered, or does it refer to the level requirement or the rune(stone) itself?

For Precious Material Items, the quality of the Item dictates what level of Runes can be etched onto it.

Quote:

Crafting with Precious Materials

Only an expert crafter can create a low-grade item, only
a master can create a standard-grade item, and only a
legendary crafter can create a high-grade item. In addition,
to Craft with a precious material, your character level
must be equal to or greater than that of the material.
Low-grade items can be used in the creation of magic
items of up to 8th level, and they can hold runes of up
to 8th level. Standard-grade items can be used to create
magic items of up to 15th level and can hold runes of
up to 15th level. High-grade items use the purest form
of the precious material, and can be used to Craft magic
items of any level holding any runes. Using purer forms
of common materials is so relatively inexpensive that the
Price is included in any magic item.

A rusty Scimitar would likely be a shoddy Scimitar made of non-Precious Material. You could apply Runes to it if you really wanted to, but you'd be much better off just buying a standard Scimitar, and apply the Runes to that.

Quote:

Shoddy Items

Improvised or of dubious make, shoddy items are never
available for purchase except for in the most desperate of
communities. When available, a shoddy item usually costs
half the Price of a standard item, though you can never sell
one in any case. Attacks and checks involving a shoddy
item take a –2 item penalty. This penalty also applies to any
DCs that a shoddy item applies to (such as AC, for shoddy
armor). A shoddy suit of armor also worsens the armor’s
check penalty by 2. A shoddy item’s Hit Points and Broken
Threshold are each half that of a normal item of its type.

You can craft a Rune from a Formula, which is obtained by either finding or purchasing the Formula, but you can also just find or purchase the Rune itself, and then transfer it. You don't need a Formula to transfer a Rune. You just need to pay 10% of the Rune's cost (or nothing if from a Runestone) and Succeed on the Level Based Crafting Check. Depending on your GM, you might also be able to just pay a merchant to transfer it. Given how important Runes are to the game's math, I can't imagine many GMs refusing to allow that.

The rules for getting Formulas are on page 293.

Dark Archive

Thanks, Aratorin; I don't know how I've missed that bit about Rune Formulas!

I'm still a bit unsure how the precious materials and level requirements work; is it required that you must use silver/adamantine/darkwood/etcetera for higher level items, and you can't have a holy avenger or +3 striking greatsword made out of (ordinary) steel?

Maybe that rusty orc scimitar (being in fact a shoddy item, as you pointed out) was not a good example; perhaps an average scimitar you looted from a dead bandit would illustrate my concern better. I'm fine with PCs having "special weapons" enchanted, such as the sword their ancestor brought back from one of the Mendevian Crusades; that kind of weapon might even turn out to be a Relic. I guess my background as an AD&D veteran makes it harder to accept magic items becoming more and more common (and easier to craft) in each new edition. In those days of yore you fought tooth and nail for every +1 item, and some DMs made them feel as rare and special as magic items in Harn!

Shadow Lodge

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Asgetrion wrote:

Thanks, Aratorin; I don't know how I've missed that bit about Rune Formulas!

I'm still a bit unsure how the precious materials and level requirements work; is it required that you must use silver/adamantine/darkwood/etcetera for higher level items, and you can't have a holy avenger or +3 striking greatsword made out of (ordinary) steel?

Maybe that rusty orc scimitar (being in fact a shoddy item, as you pointed out) was not a good example; perhaps an average scimitar you looted from a dead bandit would illustrate my concern better. I'm fine with PCs having "special weapons" enchanted, such as the sword their ancestor brought back from one of the Mendevian Crusades; that kind of weapon might even turn out to be a Relic. I guess my background as an AD&D veteran makes it harder to accept magic items becoming more and more common (and easier to craft) in each new edition. In those days of yore you fought tooth and nail for every +1 item, and some DMs made them feel as rare and special as magic items in Harn!

No, you could have rusty orc scimitar Holy Avenger if you really wanted to: Only items made of precious materials are rune restricted by grade.

Basically, it seems like they wanted precious material weapons to not be the 'default' so they made them kinda expensive and kept them from scaling up easily...


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Taja the Barbarian wrote:
No, you could have rusty orc scimitar Holy Avenger if you really wanted to: Only items made of precious materials are rune restricted by grade.

I remember reading something to the effect of it not being that non-precious materials didn't have to be high-quality to make magic items out of them, but that there wasn't a difference in cost or item level for high-grade items of standard materials.

I can't find it now that I've gone looking, though.


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CRB 578 wrote:
Using purer forms of common materials is so relatively inexpensive that the Price is included in any magic item.

So it is assumed that higher quality magic items do require higher quality materials, it's just that the price of high quality steel or w/e is negligible compared to the price of the high quality enchantment.

Dark Archive

Taja the Barbarian wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:

Thanks, Aratorin; I don't know how I've missed that bit about Rune Formulas!

I'm still a bit unsure how the precious materials and level requirements work; is it required that you must use silver/adamantine/darkwood/etcetera for higher level items, and you can't have a holy avenger or +3 striking greatsword made out of (ordinary) steel?

Maybe that rusty orc scimitar (being in fact a shoddy item, as you pointed out) was not a good example; perhaps an average scimitar you looted from a dead bandit would illustrate my concern better. I'm fine with PCs having "special weapons" enchanted, such as the sword their ancestor brought back from one of the Mendevian Crusades; that kind of weapon might even turn out to be a Relic. I guess my background as an AD&D veteran makes it harder to accept magic items becoming more and more common (and easier to craft) in each new edition. In those days of yore you fought tooth and nail for every +1 item, and some DMs made them feel as rare and special as magic items in Harn!

No, you could have rusty orc scimitar Holy Avenger if you really wanted to: Only items made of precious materials are rune restricted by grade.

Basically, it seems like they wanted precious material weapons to not be the 'default' so they made them kinda expensive and kept them from scaling up easily...

Heh, it seems a bit weird if you can upgrade low-quality items (such as rusty orc scimitars) to high-end, character-defining items such as the holy avenger. I wish the rules for crafting magical items would have been cleaner and tighter; now it feels the only point for using precious materials is to take advantage of vulnerabilities, and maybe get sturdier shields, if shields are your "thing". :/


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

That's pretty much always been the point of precious materials.

Although the above example doesn't work since holy avengers are specifically cold iron (also specifically longswords, not scimitars).

Dark Archive

Lost In Limbo wrote:
CRB 578 wrote:
Using purer forms of common materials is so relatively inexpensive that the Price is included in any magic item.
So it is assumed that higher quality magic items do require higher quality materials, it's just that the price of high quality steel or w/e is negligible compared to the price of the high quality enchantment.

Ah, it is kind of implied the quality matters after all. I wish it was clearly spelled out in game mechanics, not hand-waved in this manner and mentioned only in passing.

Shadow Lodge

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Chapter 11: Crafting & Treasure / Materials / Precious Materials / Crafting with Precious Materials

Crafting with Precious Materials (Core Rulebook pg. 578) wrote:
Only an expert crafter can create a low-grade item, only a master can create a standard-grade item, and only a legendary crafter can create a high-grade item. In addition, to Craft with a precious material, your character level must be equal to or greater than that of the material.

Oddly enough, this first line indicates a trained crafter can't actually make anything, which makes more sense if it is only referring to crafting Precious Material items...

Crafting with Precious Materials (Core Rulebook pg. 578) wrote:
Low-grade items can be used in the creation of magic items of up to 8th level, and they can hold runes of up to 8th level. Standard-grade items can be used to create magic items of up to 15th level and can hold runes of up to 15th level. High-grade items use the purest form of the precious material, and can be used to Craft magic items of any level holding any runes. Using purer forms of common materials is so relatively inexpensive that the Price is included in any magic item.

Okay, this (very poorly placed) rule seems to indicate that you do need higher grades for all higher level items, but that there is no difference in price.

Crafting with Precious Materials (Core Rulebook pg. 578) wrote:

When you Craft an item that incorporates a precious material, your initial raw materials for the item must include that material; at least 10% of the investment must be of the material for low-grade, at least 25% for standard-grade, and all of it for high-grade. For instance, a low-grade silver object of 1 Bulk costs 20 gp. Of the 10 gp of raw materials you provide when you start to Craft the item, at least 1 gp must be silver. The raw materials you spend to complete the item don’t have to consist of the precious material, though the GM might rule otherwise in certain cases.

After creating an item with a precious material, you can use Craft to improve its grade, paying the Price difference and providing a sufficient amount of the precious material.

This last line would be good if it didn't specifically apply to Precious Material items.

Honestly, I'd probably just say this section of rules doesn't apply to to non-precious items (this is the 'Crafting with Precious Materials' section after all).
Alternately, you can remove the 'precious material' limitation on the last line and allow 'free' upgrades for non-precious items.
Either way, it seems like you need to ignore something for this to actually work...

Dark Archive

Squiggit wrote:
That's pretty much always been the point of precious materials.

I know; I forgot to add that it's always been that way in D&D and Pathfinder, although Pathfinder did add some small bonuses to both armor and weapons made from precious materials. I had hoped 2E would have both cleaned up and improved the rules on precious materials; for example, let's say that wands made from adamantine, darkwood and silver might all have different tweaks to how they work, wouldn't that be great? I could create a wand of magic missiles that add one more damage die if it's made of silver, and maybe an adamantine wand lets you change the damage type to electricity or sonic? Things like that.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Asgetrion wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
That's pretty much always been the point of precious materials.
I know; I forgot to add that it's always been that way in D&D and Pathfinder, although Pathfinder did add some small bonuses to both armor and weapons made from precious materials. I had hoped 2E would have both cleaned up and improved the rules on precious materials; for example, let's say that wands made from adamantine, darkwood and silver might all have different tweaks to how they work, wouldn't that be great? I could create a wand of magic missiles that add one more damage die if it's made of silver, and maybe an adamantine wand lets you change the damage type to electricity or sonic? Things like that.

It is a cool idea, but a lot of added complexity. Right now the only real benefit is weakness and resistance triggers, which is at least easy to understand. You want silver weapons if you're gonna be fighting werewolves or vampires so you do more damage when you hit them.

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