Human Feat Clever Improviser and Lore Skills


Rules Discussion


To give appropriate context first I need to set up my understanding of how you're supposed to set DCs for lore skills. As I understand it the intention from Paizo is that the more specific a Lore is the lower a DC the GM is supposed to set when a circumstance to use it comes up.

For example, a group of adventurers is in Ustalav and have learned the mastermind of the scheme they are attempting to thwart is a Vampire Noble. They aren't under any pressure at the moment forcing specific exploration activities so the GM rules they can all try to recall knowledge. The Vampire is 10th level so he sets the master check as Religion with a target DC 27. The first PC doesn't have Religion but does have Society and is from Ustalav in his backstory. He argues that since the undead nobility is such a big part of Ustalav's history there's a chance he's heard of this guy. The GM agrees but decides that using a lateral skill like this would be very hard so sets the Society DC to 32. The second PC has Undead Lore which is even more specific than Religion so the GM sets the DC for him as 25. The third PC was envisioned as a vampire hunter and has Vampire Lore. With an even more specific skill, the GM gives him a target of DC 22. The fourth PC has Clever Improviser which says it allows him to treat any untrained skill as trained. PC 4 says he wants to use it for Vampire Lore. The DCs in this example are secret but PC 4 knows more specific lore = lower DC.

RAW would appear to allow it. But a Clever PC can in principle use the most specific Lore possible in any given situation. Effectively making them as good or better than the specialists more often than not.

Thoughts?


I doubt it's the intent, but yes, as written, the Feat does exactly that. He is effectively trained in Ustalavan Vampire Nobility Lore if he so chooses.


#1 the feat never lets you get trained. It just allows you to use trained actions. #2 yes, you could take Ustalavan Vampire Nobility (4600-4700) Lore. Unlike Aratorin, it seems intended to me.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

This us a question that's come up a few times before. There's nothing in Clever Improviser that prevents you from trying to get very specific with a lore skill, but as setting the DC lower for more specific lore skills is a function of GM discretion, the DC is never going to get lower than the GM determines to be appropriate, regardless of what lore skill is described, so this is usable, but is only abusable in theory. There is no reason for anyone to actually ever allow the theoretical extreme cases to work in an actual game they're running.


Strictly speaking, since Recall Knowledge is an Untrained use of the skill, everybody has the option to attempt against the DC of any Lore skill whenever they wanted. It seems to me HammerJack has the right of it--whether the DC is lower for a particular skill or a particular character is entirely up to you. To me it seems appropriate to say the Lore DC is only lower for people who are actually trained in the appropriate Lore.

There is, however, an even more amusing side-effect of Clever Improviser allowing access to the Trained actions of all skills: While anybody may attempt to remember the specifics of Ustalavic Vampire Nobility with an untrained Recall attempt, only a Clever Improviser could bluster their way into a job that lets them Earn Income based on their knowledge of esoteric undead noble lore.


Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
Strictly speaking, since Recall Knowledge is an Untrained use of the skill, everybody has the option to attempt against the DC of any Lore skill whenever they wanted.

The difference is that the normal untrained person is rolling on that lower DC without level added so it's rarely advantageous to use it over a skill you've trained in. With the feat though, it's possible to still have a chance between the lowered DC and adding level to still make rolls aimed for trained+ people.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Rules Discussion / Human Feat Clever Improviser and Lore Skills All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.