What settings / environment would you like to see a adventure path set in


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion

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I’ll start this one off. I know that Reign of Winter was at least partially in arctic type setting but I would love to see a adventure path that embraces all thing Arctic, Arctic Elves, Frost Giants, Northern Barbarians, White Dragons. It would be great if it had equipment and survival rules for that type of setting. So much of the Saga Lands and the Broken Lands fit this type of setting and the desert and Jungle have been done to death in D20 games.

Well this is what I would like to see. What would you like to see.

Remember any ideals you post here are legally Paizos


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Just get us out of Avistan. I’m happy with anything else.


keftiu wrote:
Just get us out of Avistan. I’m happy with anything else.

Do you mean like in:

Legacy of Fire
Serpents Skull
Jade Regent
Skull and Shackles
Reign of Winter
Mummy’s Mask
Strange Aeons
Ruins of Azlant
Age of Ashes

(I think 5 of the above for the whole AP and others for part)

There are a sizeable chunk of AP volumes not in Avistan. And I haven’t considered extra planar ones

Shadow Lodge

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Lanathar wrote:
There are a sizeable chunk of AP volumes not in Avistan. And I haven’t considered extra planar ones

"Set in Avistan" is a proxy for "where you are encouraged to play Avistanis and especially Taldans, or in other words, white characters, even if you visit exoticized locations outside Avistan."

Serpent's Skull, Jade Regent, Skull and Shackles, Reign of Winter, Mummy's Mask, Ruins of Azlant, Tyrant's Grasp, and Age of Ashes all assume Avistani PCs as a default. All engage in orientalism and white saviorism to some degree, especially Jade Regent.

Serpent's Skull forces your party to put down an indigenous workers' revolt. In Ruins of Azlant (as in Kingmaker, but that took place within Avistan) your party is engaged in the act of colonizing. So that leaves just Legacy of Fire.

Sink Avistan into the sea. There's nothing of value in it.


Is that really how you read “out of Avistan”?
It clearly wasn’t how I read it

And I am listening to a Mummy’s Mask podcast where every PC is from Osirion

*
Lots of people want an Arcadian AP but it could very easily stumble into those colonisation themes mentioned

Shadow Lodge

Lanathar wrote:
And I am listening to a Mummy’s Mask podcast where every PC is from Osirion

Good for them. It's hard to push against a text like that.

Quote:
Lots of people want an Arcadian AP but it could very easily stumble into those colonisation themes mentioned

Yes, it could. Which is why an Arcadian AP should be a war AP - the PCs are Mahwek soldiers reclaiming colonies on the Grinding Coast.


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Lanathar wrote:


Lots of people want an Arcadian AP but it could very easily stumble into those colonisation themes mentioned

Why are you assuming you play colonizers?

This is what I mean with my post; I’m tired of the narrative centering Avistan, in setting and in cast. You listed a number of adventure paths in “exotic” locales that still assume you are outsiders from the Western-coded part of the setting. I’d be content not seeing another one of those... ever, really.

Give me political intrigue in Minkai. Give me a story of fighting off Bloodcove’s exploitation from the view of the folk of Garund. Give me a classic fantasy save the world plot, but everyone is Arcadian.


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I wasn’t really assuming that. I was spinning off of Zimmerwald .

Equally Zimmerwald raised the point on those locales being “coded”

I think they are partly wrong but you clearly agree with them

For example Mummy’s Mask gives clear and obvious scope to play Osirion based characters all the way down to at least three of the campaign traits and a reference in the flavour in the players guide. Perhaps the book itself is more coded . But from what I know of the narrative the story doesn’t really work if you are all “white westerners” since unlike many paizo APs the final threat is localised rather than global

Serpents skull gives three points you can board from that are not in Avistan. So no reason whatsoever to play Avistani. If you want to assume that all residents of the shackles are avistani then I don’t know what to tell you because I certainly don’t. So that applies to Skull and Shackles itself.

Sure it is not a large portion of APs and I grant you it has been a while since there have made been a more officially non-Avistan adventure. But this is because they had neglected the city at the centre of their setting throughout the entire lifecycle of pathfinder. Therefore we get 2 APs in a row in and around there.

I can see what is being suggested here. It wasn’t obvious in the first post (hence my Initial reply) but now is. And it is not a discussion I want much more involvement with

Scarab Sages

looks like this thread accidentally got posted twice. So I'll include my thoughts in this one.

Well they've pretty much done every sort of region already. Lots of mountains, forests, jungles, hills, plains, rivers, lakes, oceans, underdark, etc.

I believe Jade Regent also has a fair amount of arctic stuff in book 2 and 3 I think.

One thing I'd like to see in an AP though, is focused around River Travel along trade route rivers. With expanded rules for man-powered boats (canoes, rowboats, pole boats, etc.) and river trade and travel articles.

Another would be an adventure that revolves around the actual time of discovery of a cave system. Like the PCs are the ones that fall in a hole (or have their dog/pig/giant gorilla fall in the hole) and what the discovery of this cavern system means to the local area.

As to the above conversation about thinking everything is "white-centric" I don't really want to involve myself in that conversation. But if half the character hooks are regional (regional from the AP's specific area) or non-white in nature, then it isn't the writers or publisher that's the problem, its the players and GM.

Lets also consider that a bunch of white people playing a game, could they really honestly do justice to playing the native without diving big time into cultural appropriation and stereotype tropes?


This feels more "indie storygame darling" than "Paizo release," but a Galt AP that underscores that your revolution is the latest in a long line of well-intentioned ones that's doomed to a similar fate. Something about the futility and chaos of the Reign of Terror would be a fantastic release.


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keftiu wrote:
This feels more "indie storygame darling" than "Paizo release," but a Galt AP that underscores that your revolution is the latest in a long line of well-intentioned ones that's doomed to a similar fate. Something about the futility and chaos of the Reign of Terror would be a fantastic release.

After how Tyrant's Grasp ended and the feedback I saw (and gave) on the subject, I wouldn't expect to see any 'Doomed to failure' APs for a while.

Shadow Lodge

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keftiu wrote:
This feels more "indie storygame darling" than "Paizo release," but a Galt AP that underscores that your revolution is the latest in a long line of well-intentioned ones that's doomed to a similar fate. Something about the futility and chaos of the Reign of Terror would be a fantastic release.

Funny that you'd think Paizo wouldn't stray into this tone/messaging, since Paizo has in fact been proclaiming the basic futility of revolutionary politics, and portraying as best those so-called revolutions that amount to conservative (read: backwards-looking, restorationist) coups d'etat, since at least Curse of the Crimson Throne. It's most obvious in Hell's Rebels, for reasons I've stated before, but also driven home by how your actions were all, unbeknownst to you, in Mephistopheles's service the entire time.

It's far more likely that a Galt AP would be exactly what you describe, or even explicitly monarchical-restorationist (see the Revolution on the Riverside PFS scenario), than that it would be what Kasoh hopes for.


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
It's far more likely that a Galt AP would be exactly what you describe, or even explicitly monarchical-restorationist (see the Revolution on the Riverside PFS scenario), than that it would be what Kasoh hopes for.

That is likely, but I was thinking that since we've done a Revolution, Monarchy Restoration, and a Maintain Status Quo (Hell's Rebels, War for the Crown, Hell's Vengeance) recently, maybe a Galt would at least have a novel form of government be the end game.

I'm all for Iomedaen Crusaders with no war to fight in Sarkoris turning to Galt and installing a Theocracy. Of course, since I hated Hell's Vengeance with such a passion I let the Glorious Reclamation Win in my games that might be too similar.

Galt breaking itself into pieces and becoming part of the River Kingdoms would also be interesting, but unlikely to happen.


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Since my previous wish of having an Absolom AP now has been granted, yay, I would like to see a Darklands AP. The characters start out in Nat-Voth, as the mystery unfolds they have to travel further down into Sekamina, and the finale takes place in the deepest reaches of Orv.

Drow gets to rebound after the much maligned SD, it's a cool place that hasn't been done much and recently, Jacobs gets to put in dinosaurs, everyone's happy! OK sorry, some people are happy!

Shadow Lodge

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Kasoh wrote:
Galt breaking itself into pieces and becoming part of the River Kingdoms would also be interesting, but unlikely to happen.

Maybe problematize Taldor's national regeneration a bit? Seeking to restore order (and reintegrate its long-lost province, which is also the gateway to other lost Taldan provinces in the River Kingdoms up to Rostland), Eutropia invades Galt, and begins smashing final blades and imprisoning Grey Gardeners. The PCs must revise the revolutionary spirit in modern conditions, and raise a popular army to expel the invader.

Silver Crusade

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Pass on another Evil AP.

Taking down the Gray Gardeners and the Final Blades and freeing all the trapped souls sound like an awesome adventure, I’ve wanted that for awhile.


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Kasoh wrote:
Galt breaking itself into pieces and becoming part of the River Kingdoms would also be interesting, but unlikely to happen.
Maybe problematize Taldor's national regeneration a bit? Seeking to restore order (and reintegrate its long-lost province, which is also the gateway to other lost Taldan provinces in the River Kingdoms up to Rostland), Eutropia invades Galt, and begins smashing final blades and imprisoning Grey Gardeners. The PCs must revise the revolutionary spirit in modern conditions, and raise a popular army to expel the invader.

I don't know if we'd see that turn in Eutropia as currently depicted (The Lost Omens world guide says she is devoted to moderation), but that is an interesting scenario to put PCs into. On one hand, final blades are awful and the ruling body of Galt appears to be corrupt and ineffective, but Taldor is still the old rulers trying to claw back something that doesn't belong to them anymore.

Though, PCs could be agents of Taldor trying to stabilize the region or destabilize it further in preparation for such a conflict and they side with Galt when the war-mongering plans are discovered. There's a lot of interesting ways to take the concept of 'PCs fix the Galt problem.'

Either way, The main thing that would make me want to play a Galt AP is the promise that the Grey Gardeners are going to be dealt with.


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I personally would be very interested in an AP set in Brevoy. Focusing more on the inter-faction conflicts where the party needs to choose what sides to favor. It could lend itself to a better fleshed out system for social maneuvering than War for the Crown did. Or maybe they'd play more into the civil war aspect of things with the party being a group of spies investigating what the other side is doing.

:
Honestly I'm just desperate for Brevoy lore.


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Quote:
Lots of people want an Arcadian AP but it could very easily stumble into those colonisation themes mentioned
Yes, it could. Which is why an Arcadian AP should be a war AP - the PCs are Mahwek soldiers reclaiming colonies on the Grinding Coast.

As someone of mostly Native descent, this proposal sounds REALLY weird and gross. And still centers Avistan, since that's what the players are reacting to and acting against.

Can an Arcadian AP just...not involve the grinding coast? At all? I'm sure there's plenty of stories to be told on the continent without a single person from Avistan appearing on page.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I'd like an AP about crewing an airship, maybe around the south end of Garund. It could be like Reign of Winter, but not tied to an evil witch. Or it could be about various first contact situations and cleaning up after whichever old Pathfinder blundered down that way. (Durvin Gest?)

I'd also like to go back to Iobaria again, maybe with more than one adventure playing off the tension and prejudices involving kodlok and kadlok. Maybe:
1. Revisit and depart Brevoy.
2. Cross the Lake of Mists and Veils
3.-4. Romp and diplomacy in Iobaria
5. Skywatch, because #5 is always pretty far out there.
6. Crush Choral.
In light of the COVID, Iobaria might be too soon.

The problem with an AP in Arcadia without the grinding coast is that it would be like starting over. You could do it, but don't expect the peopel invested in the inner sea to be happy about not being able to use the books they've bought. It's not quite that bad, but the fear that some customers might feel that way might be driving the decision making. After all, the wait for a Dragon Empires native AP continues.


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logic_poet wrote:
The problem with an AP in Arcadia without the grinding coast is that it would be like starting over. You could do it, but don't expect the peopel invested in the inner sea to be happy about not being able to use the books they've bought. It's not quite that bad, but the fear that some customers might feel that way might be driving the decision making. After all, the wait for a Dragon Empires native AP continues.

Understandable, but it's still what I would prefer. If we're going to take a break from Avistan, I'd rather take a whole vacation. Leave the Inner Sea squabbles, and explore the creatures, cultures, hazards, and heroes that are native to Arcadia/Dragon Empires/Vudra, etc. What problems have gone unchecked, what new threats are arising, what organizations are coming into conflict that we haven't had enough page count to look at yet?

"Attack of the Swarm" started on a planet that was not part of the Pact Worlds, and never really wound up involving them to a great extent, so there's hope I think.

Shadow Lodge

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logic_poet wrote:
The problem with an AP in Arcadia without the grinding coast is that it would be like starting over. You could do it, but don't expect the peopel invested in the inner sea to be happy about not being able to use the books they've bought.

That's not the problem. Arcadia is plenty rich enough in adventure, and Adventure Path, opportunities without involving the Grinding Coast. Paizo's design philosophy has always been to pack each region/nation with its own more-or-less self-contained plot hooks. The idea that a single AP can or ought to be representative of a whole continent is itself a mystification that needs to die - there should be multiple APs per continent, with the goal being at least one per nation!

The problem is that decolonization ought to be played through sooner or later, not shunted off into setting material the way Vidrian's was, or with colonialism retconned out of existence as a mere bad idea. It's too important. (It's also too important, however, to be left to a stable of mostly-white writers and editors, which is an argument not to do it.) If such an AP is to be done, given the state of things in the setting, Arcadia presents the most obvious scene for it (Tian Xia represents the second-most obvious scene, and only because Amanandar is too distant from its putative metropole to actually have a relationship with it, unlike the colonies on the Grinding Coast, which have a mercantilist relationship with Andoran and Cheliax), and a national war the most obvious mechanism, now that Vidrian's revolution been removed from consideration by its placement in the past.

The Vidric workers and anti-colonialists actually got done especially dirty. Their attempt at revolt in Serpent's Skull was portrayed as due to the machinations of outside agitators, and the PCs were assumed to have crushed it. Shunting the more successful encore offscreen added insult to injury. Assuming that that success was founded upon an easy alliance of the sorts of people who were massacred for their freedom with minority pieds-noirs who were merely dissatisfied with [something about, it's not entirely clear what] the colonial-descended administration (and who would have clamored for the "restoration of order" in the earlier revolt) compounded the error.

As for people who've bought books, there aren't that many 2E setting books out at the moment. There's nothing stopping Paizo from just not putting out more Inner Sea content into which people can emotionally invest, and diverting production to Arcadia, or Southern Garund, or Kelesh and Vudra.


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
As for people who've bought books, there aren't that many 2E setting books out at the moment. There's nothing stopping Paizo from just not putting out more Inner Sea content into which people can emotionally invest, and diverting production to Arcadia, or Southern Garund, or Kelesh and Vudra.

Except for the need to actually sell those books. I don't know what kind of market there is for it, but the books have gotten more expensive and less frequent than the Campaign Setting line where you normally get setting expanding material like this so they need to sell to a wider market.

Shadow Lodge

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Kasoh wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
As for people who've bought books, there aren't that many 2E setting books out at the moment. There's nothing stopping Paizo from just not putting out more Inner Sea content into which people can emotionally invest, and diverting production to Arcadia, or Southern Garund, or Kelesh and Vudra.
Except for the need to actually sell those books. I don't know what kind of market there is for it, but the books have gotten more expensive and less frequent than the Campaign Setting line where you normally get setting expanding material like this so they need to sell to a wider market.

If the priority is to expand the market, then catering to the existing core player base is completely counterproductive. Marketing material set outside the Inner Sea to the existing player base would also likely be counterproductive (this was the mistake made with Jade Regent). Keftiu is an example of someone who was drawn into the player base by mere hints of adventure to be had outside of the Inner Sea. Of course it would be a risk to pitch setting material to an almost wholly-untapped market, the size of which is unknown and which might not ultimately be receptive, but with great risk comes the possibility of great reward.

None of us knows what Paizo's capitalization looks like at the moment, or whether they are actually positioned to take such a risk. But as long as we're whistling in the dark, we ought to err on the side of demanding that risk rather than demanding a safe play. We're not Paizo investors (I assume), and have nothing to lose.

(No, being consumers of Paizo products doesn't make us investors.)


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
The problem is that decolonization ought to be played through sooner or later, not shunted off into setting material the way Vidrian's was, or with colonialism retconned out of existence as a mere bad idea. It's too important. (It's also too important, however, to be left to a stable of mostly-white writers and editors, which is an argument not to do it.)

I disagree that it needs to be done via a Pathfinder AP. Even if they overcome the barrier of mostly White writers and editors, you still have a mostly White player base and GM pool. I think these themes would be better presented as either a video game, where the storytelling is more centralized, or via Starfinder, where there isn't as obvious a real world analogue and we aren't encouraging thousands of players to put on brown face.


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Kasoh wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
As for people who've bought books, there aren't that many 2E setting books out at the moment. There's nothing stopping Paizo from just not putting out more Inner Sea content into which people can emotionally invest, and diverting production to Arcadia, or Southern Garund, or Kelesh and Vudra.
Except for the need to actually sell those books. I don't know what kind of market there is for it, but the books have gotten more expensive and less frequent than the Campaign Setting line where you normally get setting expanding material like this so they need to sell to a wider market.

A Lost Omen's Guide to the rest of Golarian seems reasonable. Give it the page count of the LO World Guide, but focusing on 4-5 less explored continents rather than 10 area of the Inner Sea (probably skipping Sarusan for now). Be a good way to test the current demand for such a product and serve as a launch pad for APs outside of Avistan if the market is favorable.

Shadow Lodge

AnimatedPaper wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
The problem is that decolonization ought to be played through sooner or later, not shunted off into setting material the way Vidrian's was, or with colonialism retconned out of existence as a mere bad idea. It's too important. (It's also too important, however, to be left to a stable of mostly-white writers and editors, which is an argument not to do it.)
I disagree that it needs to be done via a Pathfinder AP. Even if they overcome the barrier of mostly White writers and editors, you still have a mostly White player base and GM pool. I think these themes would be better presented as either a video game, where the storytelling is more centralized, or via Starfinder, where there isn't as obvious a real world analogue and we aren't encouraging thousands of players to put on brown face.

I can see two related problems with using a more "directed" style of storytelling. First, it clashes with the theme. If decolonization (or other revolutions) is done in the name of freedom or self-determination, it'd be weird to have the heavy hand of the author(s) directing you through it, in just the ways the author(s) think it should go. Second, it relies on the author(s) directing the action having the right theory about how such things should play out, and Paizo's track record does not inspire confidence on that score. For an example of the kind of bass-ackwards messaging leaving the "direction" of such a story in the hands of people with no knowledge and shallow theory can lead to, see Detroit: Become Human (or indeed, Vidrian). An AP presents many of the same risks (I've argued that Paizo has fallen into the traps that incorrect theory and heavy-handed direction present in Hell's Rebels, Curse of the Crimson Throne, and so on, though mine is the minority opinion) but it is also more moddable.

Also, the AP line is Paizo's flagship product (the video games hitherto haven't even been Paizo products, being produced by third parties under license; as far as I know, Paizo has no in-house videogame development capacity and no plans to foster any), and relegating non-white stories, and particularly stories about decolonization, to lesser lines sends its own derogatory message. It's not a coincidence that this thread was started in the AP subforum, or that the discussion has focused on APs.

(I have nothing to say about Starfinder, having never bothered learning its gameplay and having no knowledge of its setting. I'll defer to you on the subject of its usefulness as a vehicle.)

As for the mostly-white player base and GM pool, part of the point of centering non-white characters is to move beyond it. If that means not catering to it for a six-month cycle (or several continuous or alternating six-month cycles), good riddance! Paizo's survived APs not selling well to its existing player base before, and unlike those APs, such an AP might, if well-done, sell well to new players.


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Not really helping this idea feel less weird and gross. But I think the two of us have spent enough of this thread discussing it, and I feel like we're entering "derailment" territory. If you want to continue it, PM me.

Back to the thread's topic, I feel like most APs do explore a good balance of terrestrial environments. Age of Ashes had desert, jungle, urban, underground, forests, caves, etc, but that's a more extreme example. Perhaps something involving the Plane of Shadow or Dimension of Time?

Shadow Lodge

AnimatedPaper wrote:
Back to the thread's topic, I feel like most APs do explore a good balance of terrestrial environments. Age of Ashes had desert, jungle, urban, underground, forests, caves, etc, but that's a more extreme example. Perhaps something involving the Plane of Shadow or Dimension of Time?

The plane of shadow, in particular the places in it that have received the most attention up to this point (e.g., Shadow Absalom) largely reproduce the material plane.


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Right, but the thread topic isn't what regions you'd like to see an AP in, but what environments. (Edit: I don't mean to harsh on previous discussions, and the title does say "settings" too, so I withdraw that objection and apologize to the room) As a region, I agree, Shadows has little new to offer; as an environment, the Plane of Shadow is one of the closer, easier to get to weird environments where new hazards and environmental rules can be applied from level 1. That a place like Shadow Absalom would give a serious case of the unheimlich is part of the appeal to me.

Another option would be the mana wastes, but I think we're building towards an Impossible lands AP in the not too distant future.

Shadow Lodge

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AnimatedPaper wrote:
As a region, I agree, Shadows has little new to offer; as an environment, the Plane of Shadow is one of the closer, easier to get to weird environments where new hazards and environmental rules can be applied from level 1. That a place like Shadow Absalom would give a serious case of the unheimlich is part of the appeal to me.

I'm not even sure that the Shadow Plane offers much of a different twist on Material Plane environments (which it also replicates). Can't speak for 2E, but in 1E, the Shadow Plane did not differ from the Material Plane with respect to gravity, time, size, essence, or alignment. The sole planar traits that separated the Shadow Plane from the Material Plane was that the Shadow Plane was magically morphic while the Material Plane was alterable morphic, and that the Shadow Plane enhanced [darkness] and [shadow], and impeded [light], spells. What it mostly offers is a changed (typically more Gothic) aesthetic, and the same thing that all non-material planes offer, altered demographics. It does impede navigation in a way the Material Plane doesn't, which is something of a hazard, but not one that can really come up in play (if the GM has a plot in mind, then the players will happen upon it; if the GM does not, and the players are expected to make their own plot, then where they are doesn't much matter).

Scarab Sages

AnimatedPaper wrote:
logic_poet wrote:
The problem with an AP in Arcadia without the grinding coast is that it would be like starting over. You could do it, but don't expect the peopel invested in the inner sea to be happy about not being able to use the books they've bought. It's not quite that bad, but the fear that some customers might feel that way might be driving the decision making. After all, the wait for a Dragon Empires native AP continues.

Understandable, but it's still what I would prefer. If we're going to take a break from Avistan, I'd rather take a whole vacation. Leave the Inner Sea squabbles, and explore the creatures, cultures, hazards, and heroes that are native to Arcadia/Dragon Empires/Vudra, etc. What problems have gone unchecked, what new threats are arising, what organizations are coming into conflict that we haven't had enough page count to look at yet?

"Attack of the Swarm" started on a planet that was not part of the Pact Worlds, and never really wound up involving them to a great extent, so there's hope I think.

I think part of the problem with creating an AP wholly set in another culture analogue to a real world culture that has traditionally be stereotyped and beaten down, is 1) do they have the right writers (of that culture) to do that story justice without playing into the stereotypes or delving into cultural appropriation? or 2) do you honestly think that the average player would be able to play such an adventure without diving into the negative and gross stereotypes?

As a publisher, I'd want to try and stay away from either of those two things as much as possible.

Scarab Sages

AnimatedPaper wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
The problem is that decolonization ought to be played through sooner or later, not shunted off into setting material the way Vidrian's was, or with colonialism retconned out of existence as a mere bad idea. It's too important. (It's also too important, however, to be left to a stable of mostly-white writers and editors, which is an argument not to do it.)
I disagree that it needs to be done via a Pathfinder AP. Even if they overcome the barrier of mostly White writers and editors, you still have a mostly White player base and GM pool. I think these themes would be better presented as either a video game, where the storytelling is more centralized, or via Starfinder, where there isn't as obvious a real world analogue and we aren't encouraging thousands of players to put on brown face.

Historically, non euro-centric campaign settings have sold poorly (TSR, Wizards of the Coast, and others). With the exception of possibly Legend of the Five Rings material that is (although I'm not sure how well that actually did.) But Oriental, Arab, and Mongol settings have not traditionally sold well, which is why you usually have seen a single setting book or box based on a series of novels and then maybe a couple adventures (the Arab Setting of 2nd edition AD&D I think had 6 adventures written for it, but that was right as TSR was starting to fail, and so they ended up canceling the line) and that's it.

Is it because people generally want standard western euro-centric high arthurian-style fantasy? Is it because in general, the stereotypical gamer of 20 years ago was a nerdy, white, slovenly, male with poor social skills who tend to over-stereotype their characters and ignorantly use those stereotypes to create the slave who's beaten his past or the buxom horny lesbian, or whatever? The point is, whether its because the audience doesn't purchase those types of adventures or settings, the writers/authors wouldn't do such an adventure or setting justice because they have no practical experience with being of that sort of demographic, or the consumers would butcher said setting with tons of negative stereotypes, I think it would be a bad idea.

Scarab Sages

I think the OP was also wanting the AP wholly set in one region/terrain/environment. In this case, an entire AP set in the arctic setting. Six books of cold adventure. I'm not sure how well that would sell regardless what environment that would be, and it does present potential issues with player engagement and sales.

One thing I've really enjoyed about the AP line, is that the APs don't stay in one type of location for the entire thing. You get to explore, at least, new types of terrain, and there is often a few dungeon crawls or castles to storm within the adventure.

Setting it all in one terrain type could leave the audience cold.


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I'd like to see an AP where players create PCs on Golarion, but are very quickly whisked away to one of the other planets in Golarion's solar system, and the majority of the rest of the AP takes place on that planet. I'm not suggesting a planet-hopping AP, but more of a deep dive into another planet.


Where is the best space for the discussion on paizo content being too white European focused that the OP and Zimmerwald seem to want to have ? (As in, is it here or somewhere else?)

To engage a little bit - a big part of a fantasy role playing game involves mixing in fantastical creatures and entities from relevant cultures and making them “real” in the fantasy analogue of that setting

Now I recall the blowback JK Rowling got for hamfisted cultural appropriation of Native American myths and legends in her application of them to her “setting”. And I am sure I read part of it came from a “she should have consulted us” standpoint. But another side was “it shouldn’t have been used at all it is sacred to us”.

The latter stance makes it very difficult to actually find writers and apply it to a setting. And so surely that would make the idea of an Arcadian AP written from a non European standpoint very tricky. And as mentioned before probably best to avoid entirely then - since we would want to steer away from misjudged appropriation

I think something similar is true with the Australian folklore - isn’t it taboo to even write down. Let alone adapt for a setting and sold?

What I am suggesting is that paizo APs are probably focused how they are precisely because they don’t want to offend. You can see this by James Jacobs’ relatively recent comments on skinwalkers and viskanya’s.

But this exclusion is also not satisfying for many as evidenced by this thread. But what is the solution. It seems like a fine line to tread

I guess I wonder how possible what some people in this thread want actually is. (Leaving aside the argument on commerciality)


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The solution to “it’s offensive when a clueless white author mishandles other cultures for fantasy” is “hire more diverse authors.”

You’ll notice that Xopatl’s writeup was good enough to make me insufferable about wanting more Arcadian content, and that’s a credit to Luis Loza’s stellar work.

Shadow Lodge

keftiu wrote:
The solution to “it’s offensive when a clueless white author mishandles other cultures for fantasy” is “hire more diverse authors.”

Eh, management and editorial remains largely white until it's replaced.

Shadow Lodge

Andostre wrote:
I'd like to see an AP where players create PCs on Golarion, but are very quickly whisked away to one of the other planets in Golarion's solar system, and the majority of the rest of the AP takes place on that planet. I'm not suggesting a planet-hopping AP, but more of a deep dive into another planet.

PFS dipped its toe in that well, as did Reign of Winter. Neither spent more than a book on the other planet, though.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lanathar wrote:

Where is the best space for the discussion on paizo content being too white European focused that the OP and Zimmerwald seem to want to have ? (As in, is it here or somewhere else?)

The best space would be zimmerwald's head and trying to convince him that projecting his real-world fantasies of a bloody global revolution with the proletariat, indigenous peoples, minorities and atheists overthrowing the religious-capitalist overlords and toppling the great colonial empires onto a fantasy RPG game is taking things a bit too far. Alas, good luck with that.


keftiu wrote:

The solution to “it’s offensive when a clueless white author mishandles other cultures for fantasy” is “hire more diverse authors.”

You’ll notice that Xopatl’s writeup was good enough to make me insufferable about wanting more Arcadian content, and that’s a credit to Luis Loza’s stellar work.

The non white writer part is (theoretically) obvious but you seemingly ignored all my other points (which in fairness might be misunderstandings) about non-white writers not wanting or feeling able to write about such things due to their cultures

I am not convinced it is as simple as you suggest

Also I am not sure how I would notice anything about your feelings on Xopatl’s write up. This has not been mentioned in this post at all. So what am I supposed to to do? Look for the non white writers, look at what they have written about, look at what general areas you have mentioned interest in and then make some assumptions? People have been clamouring for Arcadian content since long before Luis was even hired by paizo ...

Shadow Lodge

Lanathar wrote:
The non white writer part is (theoretically) obvious but you seemingly ignored all my other points (which in fairness might be misunderstandings) about non-white writers not wanting or feeling able to write about such things due to their cultures

Peoples of color are not monolithic blocs, and not everyone in each one thinks the same way about the appropriateness of commodifying their cultural objects, especially not when we are all embedded in a society whose Midas fingers transmute everything they touch into a commodity, and where many peoples of color have been more or less dispossessed of other commodifiable objects (natural resources, fixed capital, large concentrations of household wealth, etc.) with which to sustain their individual and communal existences in that society. Pocahontas had American Indian consultants and actors - including at least one AIM activist who I'm pretty sure (talking off the top of my head) was involved in the Wounded Knee occupation! Which, apart from demonstrating that you can induce anyone to sell anything, also makes it a cautionary tale about the limits of redwashing (and also a reminder that AIM is a political coalition forced together by circumstance, not a unified culture or culture group all with the same attachments to the same cultural objects).

Put another way, finding non-white writers to hire for the purpose of portraying non-white cultures isn't nearly as difficult as you're making it out to be. But you are right that hiring them isn't the panacea keftiu seems to think it is.

Scarab Sages

Andostre wrote:
I'd like to see an AP where players create PCs on Golarion, but are very quickly whisked away to one of the other planets in Golarion's solar system, and the majority of the rest of the AP takes place on that planet. I'm not suggesting a planet-hopping AP, but more of a deep dive into another planet.

There is an AP out there where an entire book is devoted to another planet.

Other Planet AP:
Reign of Winter Book 4 goes to another planet and you spend the entire book on that planet.

Scarab Sages

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Lanathar wrote:
Where is the best space for the discussion on paizo content being too white European focused that the OP and Zimmerwald seem to want to have ?

At this point its probably best moved to another thread. Almost everything that can be said has been said. It would be nice to see people respond with ideas for what the OP asked instead of sidetracking the conversation past the suggestion for what Zimmerwald wants to see. That's been done. No need to now hijack this thread for purposes of discussing the merits, ethics, and politics of his suggestion or what Paizo already does.

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