Assuming you are a 20th level wizard with access to a 10th level spell, I have a couple questions, since it is mentioned that the 10th level slot " works a bit differently from other spell slots".
Archwizard's Spellcraft wrote: You command the most potent arcane magic and can cast a spell of truly incredible power. You gain a single 10th-level spell slot and can prepare a spell in that slot using arcane spellcasting. Unlike with other spell slots, you don’t gain more 10th-level spells as you level up, though you can take the Archwizard’s Might feat to gain a second slot. 1) If you have an arcane school, do you get an additional 10th level slot of that specific school?
Arcane Schools wrote: If you specialize in an arcane school, rather than studying each school equally (as universalists do), you gain an extra spell slot for each level of spell you can cast. You can prepare only spells of your chosen arcane school in these extra slots. In addition, you can prepare an extra cantrip of your chosen school. You also add another arcane spell of your chosen school to your spellbook. It appears that the intent was for 10th level spells to be really limited in number, even considering you need to spend a 20th level feat to gain access to another slot, but being specialized in a school gives a slot for 'free'? It appears to be too good.
2) For feats and abilities that take in consideration your highest spell level (like Quickened Casting and Scroll Savant), do I consider my highest spell level 9th or 10th?
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This is solely my opinion and I can't prove it.
1) I do not believe having access to a 10th level slot allows the school specialization to add an additional slot.
2) You should be able to use the 10th level slot for quickened casting.
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10th level spells count as a spell just like any other (some spells allow for heightening to 10th level). So feats or abilities that consider your highest spell level should count 10th as your highest.
I agree with you that it seems RAI that you do not get an extra 10th level slot just because you are an abjurer instead of a universalist, but the rules are a bit ambiguous. I would say that the rules for gaining a 10th level spell indicating "you gain one" coupled with the asterisk on the spell level table that indicates "a 10th-level spell slot that works a bit differently from other spell slots," would cause me to lean strongly toward the No side of the argument.
Consider the Sorcerer 10th level spell slot ability. You actually get 2 10th level spells in your repertoire even though you only have 1 slot, which is a clear departure from the "your repertoire spells is equal to your spell slots" general rule.
I say that yes the school gives you "1 extra spell slot of every spell level you can cast". I know of nothing that says 10th level spells dont qualify as a spell level, and to deny you from your ability would be in my opinion a spit in the face.
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It is the Arcane Spellcasting class feature which gives a wizard their 1st- through 9th-level spell slots, and it is also that feature which stipulates the additional spell slot of each spell level if you are a specialist.
It is a separate class feature called Archwizard's Spellcraft that grants the first 10th-level spell slot. And anything that feature doesn't say it does it definitely can't do. So it neither let's you prepare an extra 10th-level spell slot if you are a specialist nor let's you [insert anything else you might like a wizard to be capable of but that isn't actually mentioned, i.e. spend 3 HP per spell level to cast more spells once out of spell slots]
The spellcasting feature doesnt state, "you get an extra spell slot of any spell level you can cast due to this feature."
It says, "you get an extra spell slot of any spell level you can cast."
If paizo where to release level 11 or even lv 20 casting, and gave it to the Wizard, they would get an extra spell slot for each of those levels.
You are the one reading too much and making it more restrictive in the process.
Weird how me not insisting a feature does more than it actually says is "reading too much"
The feature neither says "you get an extra spell slot of any spell level you can cast due to this feature" nor "you get an extra spell slot of any spell level you can cast, including the one that says it works differently"
The question then falls to another rule in the book to figure out, since it doesn't handle things in explicit enough fashion for some: page 444 "Ambigious Rules Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is."
Specialists getting an extra 10th level spell slot at no cost and with no trade offs is definitely too good to be true.
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Their trade of is that they spent 20 levels with that school, what more trade of do you want?
Also I dont think that rule is as ambiguous as you point it out.
Also I never added, "including the one that says it works differently." I simplh read the rule as is. And as is it includes level 10 spells.
Arcane School wrote: You gain additional spells and spell slots for spells of your school. Spellcasting wrote: As you increase in level as a wizard, your number of spell slots and the highest level of spells you can cast from spell slots increase, shown in Table 3–19: Wizard Spells per Day on page 205. Table wrote: 19 5 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 1*
20 5 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 1*
* The archwizard’s spellcraft class feature gives you a 10th-level spell slot that works a bit differently from other spell slots.
Archwizard's Spellcraft wrote: Unlike with other spell slots, you don’t gain more 10th-level spells as you level up, though you can take the Archwizard’s Might feat to gain a second slot. Arcane school gives you one spell of each spell level you can cast. You gain more spell of level 1 to 9 spells from level up. You get only 1 level 10 spell from level up.
A wizard would at level 20 have 4 spells of each level up to 9, 5 (6 cantrips if you treat them as level 0), and 2 level 10 spells. 1 from level up and 1 from Arcane School (which is an extra).
Temperans wrote: Their trade of is that they spent 20 levels with that school, what more trade of do you want? If no other similar spellcasting class/build gets this benefit, but specialists do, there should be some clear "but other builds get [blank] instead" which serves as a balancing factor for what is otherwise just "specialists get better stuff than every similar sort of character."
Temperans wrote: Also I dont think that rule is as ambiguous as you point it out. The rule is not explicit about the benefit you claim it provides, thus it is by definition ambiguous.
It could be that the intent is for specialists to get this benefit, but it also could be that the intent is for 10th-level spells to "work a bit differently" as the asterisk states and that to include not giving specialists a benefit that is the entire effect of a 20th-level feat as a gimme.
Temperans wrote: Also I never added, "including the one that says it works differently." I simplh read the rule as is. And as is it includes level 10 spells. Similarly, I never added, "due to this feature." I simply read the rule as is, and it doesn't include 10th-level spells.
That we both have equally supported readings of the text that differ in their results is how I know that this rule is ambiguous, and thus subject to the "too good to be true" rule.
Well, that and having read that "get 1 more 10th-level spell slot" is a thing only explicitly granted by a feat, and that's all the feat does, and it being clearly too good to be true to not just receive a bonus feat without it being explicitly mentioned, but also be able to effectively take that feat twice despite it not being allowed to be taken multiple times because the first time wasn't technically taking the feat - it was just a loose bit of text being interpreted for maximum possible benefit without regard to intent.
The ability doesn't exclude 10th level spells, it clearly says "every spell level" with no mention of 10th level spells being exempt any where in that feature.
You are treating the feature as granting a free feat, but that ability is working just as intended from level 1. Also all Wizards are able to get that extra 10th level spell because Universalist get this:
Quote: For each level of spell you can cast, you can use Drain Bonded item once per day to recall a spell of that level (instead of using it only once per day in total). So we are not talking about Specialist Wizards getting some unique treatement.
If you are complaining about other classes not getting bonus 10th level spells. Cleric's Divine Font gives them a large amount and use the wording "highest spell level" even reminding people that it includes 10th level spells in the table. Sorcerer Bloodlines are bastly better than Wizard Schools or Cleric Doctrines. Druid is overall a generalist with some of the best defenses. Finally, Bard doesn't need any help as its literally the best caster in the game.
So a Single 10th level spell right at the end of the game doesn't seem at all to be, "too good to be true". Specially when you consider that Wizards are supposed to be the "masters of magic".
Temperans wrote: The ability doesn't exclude 10th level spells, it clearly says "every spell level" with no mention of 10th level spells being exempt any where in that feature. It does not exclude 10th level spells, and it does not explicitly include 10th level spells. It does imply 10th level spells - but the fact that a wizard's first 10th level spell comes from a completely different class feature implies that 10th level spells are handled uniquely.
Temperans wrote: Also all Wizards are able to get that extra 10th level spell because Universalist get this:
Quote:
For each level of spell you can cast, you can use Drain Bonded item once per day to recall a spell of that level (instead of using it only once per day in total).
So we are not talking about Specialist Wizards getting some unique treatement.
We are, actually, because having an extra slot in which you can prepare your choice of spell and also an extra cantrip is more potent and versatile than being able only to re-cast something you have already cast before this point in your day.
Temperans wrote: If you are complaining about other classes not getting bonus 10th level spells. I'm not, they each have their own other features that make them worthwhile... the only relevance of other classes and 10th level spells is that Sorcerer (the real "masters of magic" since it's literally in their blood) has the same number of spell slots for every spell level as a specialist wizard does - unless you let specialist wizards have an extra 10th level spell slot. Which is more evidence that doing so is a too good to be true ruling.
Temperans" wrote: So a Single 10th level spell right at the end of the game doesn't seem at all to be, "too good to be true". "a single 10th level spell right at the end of the game" is an actual feat. Getting the benefit of a feat without spending a feat for it is basically the literal definition of the phrase "too good to be true."
Arcane School doesnt care where the spell slot came from, just that you can cast it. There are many subclasses that give thjngs worth a feat, so Wizards are not getting anytging unique, besides it being the equivalent of a level 20 feat.
Sorcerers are not meant to be "masters of magic" their role in the lore is "magic comes to them naturally". Also their bloodlines are much stronger than Wizard Arcane Schools, so getting a bonus 10th level spell balances things out as "Sorcerer if more front loaded than the Wizad, but Wizard gets the 10th level spell".
Specialist Wizards are supposed to be stronger that Universal Wizards at casting their School spells. The Universalist being able to recast a 10th level spell, matches with a Specialist being able to prepare an extra one: In fact thats exactly what the Schools do until you try to exclude 10th level spells. Which again are not excluded by the Arcane School feature.
Which again leads me to Arcane School doesn't care what feature gave you the Spell Slot. If there was a feat that gave you an 11th level spell, Arcane School would give you an extra 11th level spell, unless the feat itself said "Arcane School doesnt give you extra 11th level spells". The feature that gives 10th level spell only says you dont get more from level up, and Arcane School are not more spells from level up.
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Another point in favor of the "specialists don't get a free 10th level slot" argument is that there are (currently) only 5 10th level spells. 2 conjuration and one each evocation, transmutation and divination. Abjurers, Necromancers, Enchanters, and Illusionists don't even have a 10th level spell to put in their specialty school only 10th level slot.
To piggyback on Kelseus's point, the highest level Illusion spell that can be Heightened to 10th, and thus the highest level spell of that school that can be cast at level 10, is Phantasmal Calamity, which is a level 6 spell, and even then it's a Heightened (+1) for an extra 2d6 damage per level heightened.
Abjuration's highest level spell that can be heightened to 10 is Contingency (Level 7). Necromancy and Enchantment get Massacre and Power Word: Kill, respectively, which are both 9th level.
Perhaps we'll get additional 10th level spells of other schools in the future, but until then, the four schools mentioned are a little SOL.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
thenobledrake, do you also believe that Universalists are capped at nine uses of drain bonded item, instead of ten?
Kelseus wrote: Another point in favor of the "specialists don't get a free 10th level slot" argument is that there are (currently) only 5 10th level spells. That's an argument Paizo needs to print more spells. It doesn't really have any bearing on what the rule does or doesn't do though.
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This seems pretty unambiguous.
Quote: If you specialize in an arcane school, rather than studying each school equally (as universalists do), you gain an extra spell slot for each level of spell you can cast. Can you cast spells of level z?
If yes, gain an additional spell slot of level z.
If you can cast level 10 Spells, you gain an additional level 10 slot.
What spells are currently available have no say on what the ability is meant to do. It is obvious that Paizo will release more spells. Also even if a spell is not heighten-able, it doesn't mean you can't prepare it on a higher level spell slot, you simply dont get as many benefits.
(which admittedly makes those spells kind of lame compared to other option).
Squiggit wrote: thenobledrake, do you also believe that Universalists are capped at nine uses of drain bonded item, instead of ten? I believe there is a chance that the intent is that they are limited in that way.
Aratorin wrote: This seems pretty unambiguous. That sentence does seem unambiguous, but it is not the entire picture.
It's the other involved sentences (the one that explains the asterisk on the spell slot table, and the ones within the Archwizard's Spellcraft feature) that result in ambiguity.
Edit to add:
Temperans wrote: There are many subclasses that give thjngs worth a feat If we were talking about something worth only a single feat, you'd have a point - but what we are talking about is a class feature that grants a focus spell (that's one feat), an extra cantrip (that's half a feat), and an extra spell slot for every spell level up through 9th for sure (that's worth at least one feat), and what's in debate is whether it also provides another feat worth of benefit or not.
And I think the answer is "No, it's already done so much. That would make it too good to be true."
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
There's plenty of precedent for one class ability impacting another. I'd say that the arcane spellcasting class feature DOES grant specialists an extra 10th-level spell.
Ravingdork wrote: There's plenty of precedent for one class ability impacting another. Can you point to an example of precedent that doesn't involve explicit language?
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thenobledrake wrote: Ravingdork wrote: There's plenty of precedent for one class ability impacting another. Can you point to an example of precedent that doesn't involve explicit language? Sure, like how a monk's powerful fist class ability has a dramatic impact on their flurry of blows class ability, and how those are later effected by metal strikes, master strikes and others.
Or how a champion's divine ally can potentially have a dramatic effect on their smiting ability.
These, and more, are all unrelated abilities, but still impact one another in dramatic ways, just like the arcane spellcasting and the archwizard's spellcraft class abilities.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
For what it’s worth, I agree with thenobledrake on this one, but concede that it is very unclear at the moment. Thankfully, I play/GM PFS and have not yet started running Extiction Curse, so this is very much an academic question for me. In that vein, my feeling is that the intention is that they don’t get a 10th level school spell, and can’t use Arcane Bond for the 10th level slot. That said, I also believe cantrips/focus spells scale to 10th level normally, and that 10th level counts as the highest spell you can cast for the purposes of Quicken Spell, a Familar’s spell battery, and the like. Is that a contradiction? Perhaps...
Edit: my rationale for intent is that Socerers only get one spell slot at 10th. The School slot and/or arcane bond keeps Wizards and Sorcs on even footing in terms of spells per day. Giving them a second one (And a third, with both school and bond) at 19th level is a massive boost.
Ravingdork wrote: Sure, like how a monk's powerful fist class ability has a dramatic impact on their flurry of blows class ability, and how those are later effected by metal strikes, master strikes and others.
Or how a champion's divine ally can potentially have a dramatic effect on their smiting ability.
These, and more, are all unrelated abilities, but still impact one another in dramatic ways, just like the arcane spellcasting and the archwizard's spellcraft class abilities.
I don't think those examples are as similar to the case of Arcane Spellcasting and Archwizard's Spellcraft as you think they are.
Powerful Fist and Flurry of Blows don't directly interact with each other at all, unlike Arcane Spellcasting and Archwizard's Spellcraft are doing if my take is wrong.
Same with the other monk features you mention. They each have a specific effect which does not rely upon the text of another feature in order to perform - so they are nothing like the case of "you have one 10th level spell slot" and "you have one additional spell slot of each spell level".
The case of Divine Ally and Divine Smite another of features which do not directly interact with each other and are not ambiguous, so again is not precedent showing whether Arcane Spellcasting's text should be considered to only apply to Arcane Spellcasting, or should also apply to Archwizard's Spellcraft's text too.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
One interesting thing I noticed is that the 19th level sorcerer class feature that gives a 10th level spell is worded a little differently:
Archives of Nethys wrote: You have perfected the magic in your bloodline. Add two common 10th-level spells of your tradition to your repertoire. You gain a single 10th-level spell slot you can use to cast these spells, using sorcerer spellcasting. Unlike other spell slots, you don’t gain more 10th-level spells as you level up, and they can’t be used for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or abilities that give you more spell slots. You can take the Bloodline Perfection sorcerer feat to gain a second slot. I wonder if the difference in wording is deliberate. Under the sorcerer wording, I think it would be clear that things like Arcane Bond or a School spell wouldn't apply to the 10th level spell slot. The Spell Blending Thesis is yet another way to get an additional spell slot that would be prohibited by the Sorcerer wording.
Anyway, as I've mentioned before this has no bearing on any game I will play or run for at least the next two years, so I'll be happy to wait and see if and when the designers comment on it.
Yeah, with Sorcerer there is a lot of clear indicators of the 10th-level spell being deliberately separated from the other parts of the class.
Like how you add two spells to your repertoire because of this feature, rather than your bloodline feature providing one like it did for all other levels of spell.
Without some designer comment on the matter it'll remain impossible to tell if this is a case of sorcerer being intentionally different from wizard or a case of the extremely common thing that happens across various bits of PF2 text where things are intended to be the same but were written by different authors or just not copy-pasted and/or checked for consistency.
@First World Bard
The Sorcerer wording makes it even more clear to me that Wizards were meant to have that extra spell. If they really didnt want Wizards from getting a bonus 10th level spell with their key Path feature, they would had used the Sorcerer wording.
Edit: After checking it is clear that Spontaneous casters were given the wording that grants 2 spell added to repertoir but no additional castings. Meanwhile Prepared casters get a single spell, but no wording that prevents them from getting more casting.
Druid wrote: You gain a single 10th-level spell slot and can prepare a spell in that slot using primal spellcasting. Unlike with other spell slots, you don’t gain more 10th-level spells as you level up, though you can take the Hierophant’s Power feat to gain a second slot. Bard wrote: Add two common 10th-level occult spells to your repertoire. You gain a single 10th-level spell slot you can use to cast one of those two spells using bard spellcasting. You don’t gain more 10th-level spells as you level up, unlike other spell slots, and you can’t use 10th-level slots with abilities that give you more spell slots or that let you cast spells without expending spell slots. Notice they are the same wording for Wizard and Sorcerer respectively.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Sure. As a counterpoint, it may be that Prepared Casters don’t have that language because it was intended for Divine Font to give 10th level heal spells to Clerics at 19th level, which is perfectly reasonable. And then everything got copy-pasted as thenobledrake surmises. Anyway, it is not clear to me. If it’s clear to you, great! Hopefully we can hear from developers one way or another.
Edit: as an aside, it’s a bummer that the mini Divine Font a Sorcerer gets from Divine Evolution caps out at 9th level, while a Cleric’s Divine Font does not.
Honestly, I do think that if Wizards getting 1 extra spell is "too good", Cleric's Divine Font giving up to 7 is utterly insane and broken.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Temperans wrote: Honestly, I do think that if Wizards getting 1 extra spell is "too good", Cleric's Divine Font giving up to 7 is utterly insane and broken. That is a straw man argument. Clerics get slots they can only prepare heightened Heal spells. Proper 10th level spells (Wish, Time Stop, etc) are purposefully stronger than spells of lower levels. When any other class hits 19 level, they can cast exactly 1 such spell per day. Depending on interpretation, a Wizard can do that four times. (Regular slot, School slot, Arcane Bond, Spell Substitution thesis). That feels unintended to me.
Edit: back in the Playtest, not all casting classes even had the 20th level feat option to get a second 10th level slot at first. It was added in one of the updates, presumably to add parity to the spellcasting classes.
That statement was apart from the argument of why wizards get it and was purely personal opinion. Sorry that it looked like a strawman.
I do agree with you that a single highetened heal is weaker than a single true 10th level spell.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Temperans wrote: That statement was apart from the argument of why wizards get it and was purely personal opinion. Sorry that it looked like a strawman.
I do agree with you that a single highetened heal is weaker than a single true 10th level spell.
Ahh, no worries. I make asides like that a bunch as well.
And yeah, now that I think about it a large Divine Font is absolutely gross vs Undead or as a Harm Font if your party has other healing. It might even be worth going Versatile Font to do both...
Temperans wrote: Honestly, I do think that if Wizards getting 1 extra spell is "too good", Cleric's Divine Font giving up to 7 is utterly insane and broken. That's actually a big part of why I have been saying "It's not explicit so maybe it's not actually supposed to happen?" - because if not for it being clearly marked on the cleric spell slot chart that you do get your Divine Font slots to be 10th level, I definitely wouldn't think "of course the feature is supposed to be that powerful."
I feel they added it to clerics to make it clear that "Yes, 10th level spells are the highest you can cast". Wizard makes no mention of "highest" and instead mentions "every", so I don't think it needed the extra clarification.
But given how we are devating this, maybe they should had added it to ensure people understood.
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