Just as the title suggests, I'm looking at building a telekineticist who makes use of the "telekinetic maneuvers" wild talent as their primary combat ability. Essentially, I'd like to lock down enemies from a distance (perhaps even using stealth) and incapacitate them as quickly as possible threw pinning and/or tying up (perhaps with some kind of adamantine chain or other relatively hard to break item). What race/feats/items/other character options can I take to maximize my grappling ability? I'm not attached to single classing the kineticist, but my CMB is directly linked with my spell casting level so any prestige classes or multiclassing must take that into account. I'd also be interested in dirty trick/steal combat maneuvers if that is easier, or in supplementing my grappling build.
I know a lot about maximizing grappling, and I have built a characterthat starts out at range and can stealthily slip and quickly grapple almost anybody into submission, but I've never used telekinesis to do it.
So, you are thinking Telekinetic Maneuvers?
I think I have a build, and you might be inspiring me to another.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
So, you are thinking Telekinetic Maneuvers?
I think I have a build, and you might be inspiring me to another.
That's exactly what I'm talking about, yeah. I'd like to know how I could get my grapple bonus as high as possible to be as effective as possible.
Bloodvine rope is the best thing to tie your victims up with. Getting it to an enemy 500' away that you're pinning could be a little tricky.
Anyway, improved unarmed strike or dirty fighting, improved grapple and one of the grapple style lines (likely kraken) will be useful. Telekinesis may or may not be able to take advantage of the extra actions to maintain a grapple that greater grapple and rapid grappler allow. Ask your GM. There's a lot of odd grapple feats which won't make any sense when you're grappling someone far away too.
Don't dump your Str or Dex, your CMD matters when grappling and telekinesis doesn't seem to change it.
There's several magic items which affect grapples. Not all make sense for a remote grappler, but gauntlets of the skilled maneuver should.
Relevant traits include bred for war and/or strength's fanfare. The latter requires worshipping Kurgess, which means you wouldn't be able to take the divine obedience (Falayna) feat, which could also be useful.
A dirty trick build would be quite different. You don't have the feats to do more than one maneuver as a kineticist, don't try to split between two.
avr wrote: Bloodvine rope is the best thing to tie your victims up with. Getting it to an enemy 500' away that you're pinning could be a little tricky. That item looks pretty dope, though I was also considering a spiked chain. I may ask my GM about designing a form infusion that allows for grappling by replacing blast damage for weapon damage + con and a CMB of CL+CON+Misc and CMD of CL+CON+DEX+MISC+10. I'd imagine this would work well as a (level 1 or 2?) form infusion as long as it had a maintaince cost of 1 burn/round with the option to gather energy. I think my GM would be okay with this, so long as it's not crazy unbalanced.
avr wrote: A dirty trick build would be quite different. You don't have the feats to do more than one maneuver as a kineticist, don't try to split between two. What would a dirty trick build look like? I think I picked the most complicated one of them all to build, but telekinetic grappling definitely feels cool. Trip and Bull Rush are on the table too if you have any ideas for those. I kinda like grapple though because it takes an enemy out of the fight and reminds me of phaselocking from borderlands.
Resurrect wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote:
So, you are thinking Telekinetic Maneuvers?
I think I have a build, and you might be inspiring me to another.
That's exactly what I'm talking about, yeah. I'd like to know how I could get my grapple bonus as high as possible to be as effective as possible. Telekinetic Maneuver is a level 3 Psychic Spell, and they get level 3 spells at level 6. Classically, that's the fastest a character can get Telekinetic Maneuvers with the possible exception of Alchemist.
Since TM exists as a level 3 Spells, that means it can be obtained as a Potion. There is a level 2 Alchemal Extract called Alchemal Allocation which allows you to use any potion without actually consuming it. So a level 3 Alchemist with Alchemal Allocation and the right potion effectively can cast Telekinetic Maneuvers.
Meanwhile. Alchemists have 2 Discoveries that boost their Grapple Mods considerably. The Tentacle gives the Grab Abiilty, and that grants a +4 on Grapple Checks. A King Crab Tumor Familiar grants a +2. and the Alchemal Strength or Intelligence Mutagens (or Cognatation) grant +4 Alchemal Bonuses that stack with other other Bonuses such as Bull Strength of Fox's Cunning.
Improved and Greater Grapple are must-haves, of course. While your Alchemist is waiting for your your BAB to get up to +6, you can be shooting exploding arrows as a Grenadier, exploding bullets as a Gunchemist, or doing Sneak Attack Damage as a Vivisectionist.
A dip in Cavalier can give you Coordinated Maneuvers, another +2. If you were of the Order of the Penitent, you can Tie Up an opponent you have Grappled--not Pinned--and you don't take that -10 you normally do: that's amazing.
Lore Warden gives fast increases to CMB.
The Ranger Freebooter Archetype grants a +1 on all attack rolls for you and your allies at level 1
Armbands of the Brawler give you a +1 on Grapple Checks, and they are very cheap.
The Brawling Armor Enchantment used to be cheap, but now it's a +3 equivalent, but the Adhesive Armor Enchantment grants a +2, and it only costs 7000gp
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver grant a +2.
There are the Belts of Strength and Headbands of Intelligence, of course.
There is an Ioun Stone that grants a +1 on all Attack Rolls, iirc.
The problem with using a potion is that with potions you are the caster and the target. So you would end up grappling yourself. Which is a different type of build.
Potions wrote: Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
Firebug wrote: The problem with using a potion is that with potions you are the caster and the target. So you would end up grappling yourself. Which is a different type of build.
Potions wrote: Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
I guess you can vet with your GM if he is going to be that big a jerk.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Firebug wrote: The problem with using a potion is that with potions you are the caster and the target. So you would end up grappling yourself. Which is a different type of build.
Potions wrote: Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
I guess you can vet with your GM if he is going to be that big a jerk. You should vet your builds with your GM regardless.
Although, honestly, the levels in Alchemist in order to become a Grappler who shoots exploding arrows will be well worth it regardless. And Alchemal Allocation is still a very powerful Extract.
@Scott Wilhelm
OP is talking about a Kineticist Talent that is based on the spell, not the spell specifically. It's not a good idea to multiclass since you need at least 8 levels of Kineticist and must beat the opponent's SR to attempt the grapple check.
This is going to sound strange but...wouldn't the 'best' build for a grappler using telekinesis just be one with full BAB, the ability to enhance grab with favored class bonus, some ability to enhance grapples and a Ring of Telekinesis? Oh, and some ability that lets you ignore Freedom of Movement and similar effects.
Sure, SR is going to prevent you from using the ring to grab some things. In which case you have to just walk up to them and grapple like you did before you could afford the ring. SR isn't going to kill your build. Creatures with enough size bonus to be immune to your grappling will kill your build. After all, there is nothing in telekinesis and telekinetic maneuvers that says you ignore the size modifiers. Even if that makes some sense.
A little research leads me to...a Hobgoblin Unchained Monk. Hobgoblins are the only race that gets a favored class bonus to CMB with their 1/4 bonus to grapple, which also helps with defense. Though if you were serious about defense lots of races and classes get a full point per level for just CMD.
A side bonus for Hobgoblin is there is a racial bonus that gives +1 CMB for giving up Sneaky (+4 to stealth). That more or less compensates for the lack of a strength bonus for this race, so its a shallow bonus. The 1/4 bonus will take a while to really shine. The higher level the more that bonus will matter since other bonuses will be things you can acquire from either a friendly ally or items.
Wonderstell wrote: @Scott Wilhelm
OP is talking about a Kineticist Talent that is based on the spell, not the spell specifically. It's not a good idea to multiclass since you need at least 8 levels of Kineticist and must beat the opponent's SR to attempt the grapple check.
Well, when I asked the OP, linking to the spell, he said that that was exactly what he was talking about.
OP wrote: That's exactly what I'm talking about So while initially, he might have been talking about the Wild Talent, he specifically stated that he was at least willing to consider the spell, and I stand behind my advice offer different ways of gaining the spell.
I wasn't actually recommending he multiclass (yet). I have not yet offered any specific build. I was listing ways I knew off the top of my head that the OP could use to increase his Grapple mod. I did this because
the OP wrote: I'd like to know how I could get my grapple bonus as high as possible Wonderstell wrote: you need at least 8 levels of Kineticist and must beat the opponent's SR to attempt the grapple check Fair to say, or you could just physcically grapple your opponent that has SR. and when your opponent has Freedom of Movement, you can hang back and shoot exploding arrows.
Resurrect wrote: What would a dirty trick build look like? I think I picked the most complicated one of them all to build, but telekinetic grappling definitely feels cool. Trip and Bull Rush are on the table too if you have any ideas for those. I kinda like grapple though because it takes an enemy out of the fight and reminds me of phaselocking from borderlands. Yeah, dirty trick doesn't rely on your own CMD which simplifies things. OTOH it's even more dependent on feats. Combat expertise/dirty fighting, improved dirty trick, greater dirty trick, superior dirty trick, possibly the kitsune style line, possibly equipment trick (smokestick), dirty trick master if you get all the way to level 15.
Trip though isn't going to work as well for you as you're not using a weapon or heavy armor (there are feats which depend on these) - though I suppose a telekineticist kinetic knight using telekinetic trips and wearing full plate is possible it's a fairly weird image.
Well, maybe. Let's see if I can make the feats required work.
It'd work better with retraining around level 8 but it could work.
Bull rushes at range just won't matter as far as I can tell.
It's not necessarily the same thing, but if you wanted to give a different take on it the Spheres of Power telekinesis sphere and the classes that specialize in it are pretty darn good at doing maneuvers. It might be worth taking a look into at least.
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