Have you heard of the Sword and Pistol feat?
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Snap Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the Two-Weapon Fighting feat while wielding a melee weapon and a crossbow or firearm, your attacks with the crossbow or firearm provoke no attacks of opportunity from foes that you threaten with your melee weapon.
Normal: Making a ranged attack provokes attacks of opportunity.
Hand's Autonomy can drop the penalties by 2, but it has a prerequisite of possessed hand, so it's kind of expensive.
Third-party stuff would most-likely be OK, BTW.
Theres a fighter advanced training Effortless Dual-wielding to treat associated group as light for two-weapon fighting.
D&D 3.5 had a feat called Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting to make it count as light.
Wield it as an improvised light mace. Take Catch Off Guard.
The Savage Technologist Barbarian archetype could work for this player's concept.
The rage bonus to Dex instead of Con would be nice as well.
With two weapon fighting there is no real difference between the primary and secondary weapon other than the secondary weapon needs to be a light weapon to minimize penalties. Making a pistol a light weapon is going to be difficult, but making a rapier a light weapon can be done with an effortless lace. Purchase an effortless lace and declare the pistol the primary weapon. Both weapons now have only a -2 penalty instead of a -4. He can still attack with either or both weapon as he chooses
The Picaroon archetype gives you both weapon finesse and two weapon fighting when using a rapier and pistol without having to spend any feats. You can also spend a point of panache to avoid provoking an AoO when firing your first shot with the pistol. While it does not directly address the concern of the post it is still a very good option. Savage Technologist is also helpful for the character even though it does not solve the problem.
How is the character reloading after he fires the pistol? If he has no way to reload then he only needs to worry about wielding two weapons once. So when he is not using the pistol his sword would be the primary and get his iterative attacks.
To add to the TWF issue and reiterate what Mysterious Stranger was alluding to... if you are Main-handing the Pistol and Off-handing the light weapon, and only get 1 offhand attack via TWF, then you can deliver the first “main hand” attack with the pistol, your one off-hand with the light weapon, then your remaining main hand iterative attacks can be relocated to the light weapon. The rules make it very clear that you can deliver your iterative attacks with any combination of weapons you are capable of wielding during the attack.
Basically, you shoot first, then make a quick but weak thrust, followed by a series of savage slashes...
As for the issue of reloading... if you can find a way to get an extra arm or a prehensile tail, the reloading is a non issue... and there is a belt (the name eludes me atm) that when worn grants you a prehensile monkey tail... your prehensile tail would qualify as a free hand for reloading.
Buckler Gun has two barrels and is always an off-hand weapon... two barrels has you covered up Imp. TWF...
How to make it count as light? I don't know... Unhindering Shield?
You could always give him something like the shadowshooting property to his gun that doesn't need to be reloaded until he gets a better more expensive one later like the pistol of the infinite sky.
There are feats to fix the reloading stuff but most prob need several feats and I'm sure the player cannot afford to have to spend more.
Or any other way to make TWF with a pistol and sword work. Preferably a rapier.
I'm not sure there is a way. The concept is basically one of the most nonsensical things you could do in Pathfinder, specially on low wealth, because it ticks just about every box of "this doesn't work well in Pathfinder" there is.
Firearms alone need a high investment to work at all (either from feats/class levels or monetary). Then you need to invest in the melee weapon, and into TWF, and into not provoking an AoO when firing in melee, and into reloading while your other hand is occupied, and if you somehow manage to do that without throwing money that you don't have at it, you probably provoke AoOs for reloading.
Of course, the character concept stops working the second an enemy is more than a 5ft step away. You could just shoot enemies farther away, but if you're willing to do that, why bother with the melee weapon stuff?
I'd like to offer more constructive suggestions, but the honestly best advice I can give is to give up trying to make a playstyle work that never existed in real life and is almost impossible to pull off. Shooting the enemy while still at range an then only using the melee weapon afterwards both works and has historic precedent, but wouldn't use TWF.
You can make rapier a light weapon various ways, e.g., effortless lace, and call that your offhand when TWF.
Doesn't even work, because Effortless Lace only treats the weapon as light for "any feat, spell, or special weapon ability", while the TWF penalty is dictated by a rule. Wearing Irongrip Gauntlets and a small rapier would work.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not sure it's really helpful to come to the thread just to shit on someone's idea.
To add to the TWF issue and reiterate what Mysterious Stranger was alluding to... if you are Main-handing the Pistol and Off-handing the light weapon, and only get 1 offhand attack via TWF, then you can deliver the first “main hand” attack with the pistol, your one off-hand with the light weapon, then your remaining main hand iterative attacks can be relocated to the light weapon. The rules make it very clear that you can deliver your iterative attacks with any combination of weapons you are capable of wielding during the attack.
Third-party stuff would most-likely be OK, BTW._
glass.
Spheres of Might is super balanced.
Dual Wielding, Equipment and Barrage spheres are gonna be what they'll want to focus on. Maybe Duelist if they want some fancy rapier stuff. Only downside is you might end up liking them so much you swear off Paizo stuff.
Not sure it's really helpful to come to the thread just to s&+~ on someone's idea.
Not sure it's really helpful to come to the thread just to accuse people of doing something they didn't do. I didn't "shit" on anything. I didn't actually say anything negative about the idea - it was doing it in Pathfinder that I called nonsensical, not the idea itself.
This isn't a kindergarten sports even where everyone gets the same medal for participating. Not every character concept works in Pathfinder. Just like at some point we have to teach kids that participation is usually not enough, Pathfinder players have to learn and accept that not every idea works as a character in the game. This goes double for any idea they took from their favourite anime.
Presmuning one or two shots per combat aren't enough for the concept, the character needs:
• A way to fire without provoking
• A way to reload without provoking
• A way to reload with two occupied hands
• A way to reload without spending move or standard actions
• A way to handle misfires
• A way to make one of the weapons light
• Weapon Finesse, TWF, firearm proficiency
Presuming a level in Gunslinger, doing that with feats would take ten feats, without Precice Shot, or anything that increases damage. Shadowshooting would help (removes four of these feats needed). If first attacking with the rapier and then taking a 5ft step back to fire the pistol is acceptable, it also gets much easier, but that doesn't always work. There might be more third party stuff that helps, I wouldn't know.
It is actually possible to get all the stuff and dex to damage with both weapons, at 7th level, using only the Prodigious TWF feat as 3pp stuff, and no magic items, but it's rather elaborate: Human Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 1, Gun Chemist Alchemist 2 (selecting Vestigial Arm), Gunslinger 1, Trench Fighter 3; feats are Fencing Grace (Human, the pre-nerf version from ACO*), TWF (1), Prodigious TWF (3), Dodge (5), Mobility (F1@5), Rapid Reload (F2@6), Deft Shootist (7); using paper alchemical cartridges.
*) If 3PP stuff is allowed, I don't see an issue with using that.
@glass: It would be helpful if you told as the character as-is, and what if anything can be changed. We don't even know what class(es) the character has!
Presmuning one or two shots per combat aren't enough for the concept, the character needs:
• A way to fire without provoking
• A way to reload without provoking
• A way to reload with two occupied hands
• A way to reload without spending move or standard actions
• A way to handle misfires
• A way to make one of the weapons light
• Weapon Finesse, TWF, firearm proficiency
Because I thought it would be a fun thought experiment a 6 level Conscript from Spheres of Might has 11 talents. They can get Grit, Quick Clear and get to add half the bonus of a mental stat of your choice to damage for guns. Martial Tradition is Weapon Master which gives you all the proficiencies you need and 2 extra talents in the spheres you want for a total of 13.
Dual Wielding Sphere(Gaining a sphere costs 1 talent and counts as Two Weapon Fighting)
-Impossible Reload(Makes gun light and no longer requires a hand to reload
-Mixed Assault(Firing in melee and reloading without provoking, but only as long you wield a melee in one hand and a ranged weapon in the other.)
Equipment Sphere(Doesn't cost a sphere to buy talents from this tree)
-Expert Reloading(Counts as and is functionally Rapid Reload)
-Mechanical Savant(Guns deal 1/2 BAB as damage)
-Finesse Fighting(Weapon finesse)
Sniper and Barrage Spheres count as Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
and Rapid Shot
Damage at 6th level is something like 1d8+10 with just the offhand and scaling at a rate similar to Dex to Damage. Only feat necessary is Deadly Aim so you can invest in Two Weapon Grace. At 7th level(Vital Strike is mandatory for Spheres martials), your mainhand deals something like 2d8+10.
Build still has about 5 talents or 3 talents and 2 feats open to customize as you like too.
Spheres of Might is super balanced.
Third-party stuff would most-likely be OK, BTW._
glass.
Lol.
Presmuning one or two shots per combat aren't enough for the concept, the character needs:
• A way to fire without provoking
• A way to reload without provoking
• A way to reload with two occupied hands
• A way to reload without spending move or standard actions
• A way to handle misfires
• A way to make one of the weapons light
• Weapon Finesse, TWF, firearm proficiency
Picaroon swashbuckler handles a fair chunk of this list on its own.
Level 1: Melee Shooter Deed - spend 1 panache point to avoid provoking AoO on first firearm attack that round. Great early on as you will only have the one shot per round, this will hold you over until you can get the Sword and Pistol feat later on.
Level 1: Two-weapon Finesse - Two-weapo. Fighting and Weapon Finesse so long as you are wielding a piercing finesse weapon and firearm.
Level 3: Quick Clear - quickly removes broken condition, great early on until you can afford a Reliable and then eventually upgrade to Greater Reliable enchant.
Level 11: Lightning Reload - reload without provoking. While he’s, this comes in a bit late... it is still there and by this point you have 2 bonus feats and a third next level. Opening you up to the following feat progression:
L1: Rapid Reload (TWF & Finesse free from class)
L3: Point Blank Shot - required for S&P, and you’re going to be within 30ft anyways.
L4B: Rapid Shot - required for S&P
L5: Snap Shot - sadly required for S&P
L7: Sword and Pistol - you no longer provoke when firing in melee at all
L8B: Improved Two-weapon Fighting - can be delayed more or skipped entirely
L9: Fencing Grace or Slashing Grace - dex to damage with melee weapon, not functional while wilding firearm... yet
L11: Two-weapon Grace - Now your fencing Grace or Slashing Grace feats work.
L12B: Greater Two-weapon Fighting - see ITWF
This can be improved even with a 3 level dip into Trench Fighter for Dex to damage with your firearm and two more bonus feats to speed things up a little.
The only things missing are reloading with two occupied hands (can be done easily if your race has prehensile tail) and making one weapon light (despite what you think, the effortless lace WILL work for the melee weapon and lowers the penalty when TWF.)
A few thoughts:
First, I largely agree with Derklord (and while they can be fairly harsh, I don't think this was one of those times). It's a tall order in Pathfinder.
Second, how willing is the GM to houserule a few things? Like:
-pistols count as light weapons (because why not? It's a MUCH simpler fix than feats and items and classes, and it doesn't exactly stretch credibility).
-making a ranged attack while threatened doesn't provoke as long as you are also wielding a melee weapon (I mean, that just makes sense, right there; you've got them at sword point, so it's not like you're so thoroughly occupied pulling the trigger that you leave yourself open).
-reloading a pistol doesn't require a free hand (you can hold your sword in three fingers or in your teeth, or juggle it, your pistol and the ammunition).
Third, how central is this gimmick to the character?
In my last game, I had two players pick up Two Weapon Fighting; a rogue and a cleric. The rogue usually opened up with a hand crossbow and a rapier, then switched to a rapier and long knife. the cleric had his longsword and an enchanted throwing axe. They both used their loadouts as a way to increase their full attack damage potential, but also as a way to have a ranged weapon and a melee weapon on hand at the same time. Not a lot of resources put into it, not central to the character. Just something that gave them a boost and made them more versatile.
|
Pathfinder firearm rules are designed to emulate the era of early flintlocks. Where people still carried swords because the gun was too cumbersome to reload in a close quarters battle. One might even carry a brace of pistols in order to have several already loaded and be able to take multiple shots before resorting to their sword.
Lol.Spheres of Might is super balanced.
Third-party stuff would most-likely be OK, BTW.Care to elabrorate on this comment?
_
glass.
Oh, you weren't being facetious? My apologies.
Interestingly, I've heard the same thing about PoW and PU as well as just about anything by Dreamscarred...
Yes, before you ask, I have experience with SoP, and no I don't think it is balanced.
Don't get me wrong, balanced and fun are not synonymous. Nor do I want to bother with rehashing the countless debates already on the forums.
All the same, I appreciate the laugh you gave me, intentional or not.
Regarding it's not working very well in Pathfinder: Probably true (afterall, it is not a caster).
Is that what you take from this? That's it doesn't work well simply because it's not a caster? Seriously?
Yes, there are problems martials tend to have (how to handle flying enemies, hidden/invisible enemies, swarms, or various non-combat challenges), and many martials also face some of the issues listed below, but your fellow player's character concept is the "gotta catch 'em all" of collecting things that require high investment to work in Pathfinder.
Two-Weapon Fighting is problematic in Pathfinder.
Firearms are problematic in Pathfinder.
Ranged weapons in melee are problematic in Pathfinder.
Firearms in melee are problematic in Pathfinder.
Firearms with two occupied hands are problematic in Pathfinder.
Mixing melee and ranged weapons is problematic in Pathfinder.
Full attack centric characters with no move-and-full-attack option are problematic in Pathfinder.
Having one or two of these problems can fairly easily be overcome, it's haveing all of them, with the added monetary issues, that's the big deal.
Note, that's without going heavily into 3rd party. Spheres of Might is a whole subsystem that changes the game quite a lot. It is indeed made exactly to allow building characters like that (idea-based builds), and thus probably well suited for the player, but it's definitely not regular Pathfinder. My original statement was based on your "Third-party stuff would most-likely be OK, BTW.", which sounds more like that some 3PP feats and such are fine, not necessarily that a whole subsystem with custom classes gets a free pass.
(despite what you think, the effortless lace WILL work for the melee weapon and lowers the penalty when TWF.)
I don't just think it, I've quoted the text and explained based on the text why the item doesn't work that way. You, on the other hand, only made a claim with no argument to support it, nor did you even attempt to disprove my argument.
Pathfinder firearm rules are designed to emulate the era of early flintlocks.
Well, firearms are highly anachronistic in Pathfinder, no matter what - they should have a reload time of 12 rounds, halfed each with Rapid Reload and paper cartridges, or something like that. And even then they'd be 17th century firearms, not anything medieval.
the cleric had his longsword and an enchanted throwing axe. They both used their loadouts as a way to increase their full attack damage potential, but also as a way to have a ranged weapon and a melee weapon on hand at the same time.
Well, unless you want to get the extra attack, you don't need TWF stuff. Using the TWF rules is always a choice, and the penalties only apply if you take that option. Not only does holding a weapon in your other hand not impose TWF penalties if you don't attack with the other weapon, you can even attack with the other weapon as part of a full attack without accruing the penalties as long as you don't make that bonus attack. For instance, one could fire a pistol at an enemy 10 feet away, then make a 5ft step towards them, and make iterative attacks with a rapier, without using the TWF option. Or fire the pistol, move towards an enemy, and full atttack with the rapier next turn, without needing to drop the pistol. Neither case would use the TWF rules and thus not impose TWF penalties.
(despite what you think, the effortless lace WILL work for the melee weapon and lowers the penalty when TWF.)I don't just think it, I've quoted the text and explained based on the text why the item doesn't work that way. You, on the other hand, only made a claim with no argument to support it, nor did you even attempt to disprove my argument.
The writer of the item himself has stated directly that it works with Two-weapon Fighting, so long as you have the feats.
It's good that you now at least back up your claim with something substential, but... did you actually read the entire post? "Despite being the writer, please remember that this is really just my intent for how I envisioned the item working."
He "intend for the effortless lace to make Two-Weapon Fighting more inclusive for other weapons" (emphasis mine), doesn't mean he actually wrote it do do that. Quite frankly, this isn't the first time Alexander Augunas displays a lack of understanding the finer parts of Pathfinder (or at least a lack of thinking things through). RAW is actually pretty clear - the penalty reduction for light off-hand is done not by the TWF feat, but by the general TWF rules. Effortless Lace only interacts with feats, not general rules. Therefore, the item can't affect the reduction.
The item is as it's written, and as written, it does not help with TWF. The forum post might help convince your GM to make a houserule, but it's just that, and definitely nothing official.
Lol.Spheres of Might is super balanced.
Third-party stuff would most-likely be OK, BTW.Care to elabrorate on this comment?
_
glass.
Interestingly, I've heard the same thing about PoW and PU as well as just about anything by Dreamscarred...
Yes, before you ask, I have experience with SoP, and no I don't think it is balanced.
Don't get me wrong, balanced and fun are not synonymous. Nor do I want to bother with rehashing the countless debates already on the forums.
Sounds like you had a fundamental misunderstanding of the systems. Psionics and Spheres don't overreach the balance established in the Core Rulebook. I would refer anyone interested in these systems to the reviews by Endzeitgeist(They're actually some of his most highly reviewed products).