Help with a Pathfinder 1e Catfolk Rogue build and game mechanics questions


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Hi all,

I have played DnD a for awhile now, but just starting a pathfinder 1e campaign with some friends. I haven't played pathfinder and am a bit confused on some of the mechanics that seem same-same... but different.

First off:

How does flanking work for sneak attack in 1e? Can I still use sneak attack if one of my allies are next to the foe like in 5e? Or do I, myself, now have to be flanking the foe? How does this tie into feints and trips? I'm having a hard time grasping rogues and their sneak attack in this version.

For my character:

I'm thinking a Catfolk Rogue of some sort, starting from level 1. I don't have stats yet, flushing that out later with my GM, but am trying to make the basic outline of the character now, and the rough path it will take until level 8 or so.

The goal character is:

-generally rogue-y for sneaking, picking locks, potentially pick pocketing

-she can be the face of the party for getting cheaper prices of gear/better appraisals

-attacks with a "get in, get out" attitude, in that I hit hard with my claws and GTFO so I don't take much damage with my soft little body

-decent enough at ranged attacks (probably with short bow)

So far for a skeleton I have:

•Catfolk Rogue, (possibly Scout or Ninja, unsure which, like aspects of both and could be convinced either way)

•Racial Traits: Cat's Luck, Natural Hunter, Sprinter, taking Scent over Low Light Vision

•Racial Feat: Catfolk Exemplar -> Cats Claws (eventually leading to Nimble Strike and Claw Pounce)

•Possible Catfolk specific Rogue Talents, so far in no particular order:

-Catfolk rogue talent: Vicious Claws
-Bleeding attack
-Befuddling strike
-Fast stealth
-Sniper's Eye
-Unbalancing Trick
-Underhanded Trick
-Either Minor Magic, Major Magic, Artistic Talent, or Ninja Trick (though which?)
-Trick Shot
-Wall mastery

Thoughts? Opinions? Prayers?

In general, I am somewhat confused about character building in pathfinder vs DnD due to similarities tricking me into a false sense of familiarity. I'm also a pretty new player, by many standards and generally lack the aptitude to develop and utilize a well rounded character. But I'm trying! haha

Thank you so much in advance.

Reference sites I used: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-catfolk/, with "Catfolk Rogue Talents" and rogue talents found at the bottom of that page.


First, flanking basically requires you and an ally to be on opposite sides of the enemy, in melee. There are some fine details about what that means (and having improved uncanny dodge (rogue 8) usually means you can't be flanked) but that's the core of it. Flanked enemies can be sneak attacked.

Tripping and feints aren't related directly to flanking. If you get the dirty fighting feat then tripping while flanking becomes easier. Tripping doesn't directly enable sneak attack, though it makes it easier to set up and keep flanking. Feinting removes the enemies' Dex bonus to AC and so does enable sneak attack.

If you want to move in, attack and move away in one round then you need the spring attack feat, or a means of flight and the flyby attack feat, or a mount and the ride-by attack feat (and a fairly open battlefield for that last). One problem with this is that you won't be able to move away far enough to stop the enemy coming after you (though you may be able to avoid their making a full attack on you). Spring attack also costs a lot of feats.

On feats (& similar things like rogue talents), it's hard to focus on more than two good tricks for your PC. Tripping takes feats, feinting takes feats to be good, dirty tricks take feats, spring attack takes feats, getting the full mileage out of your natural catfolk abilities takes feats, using stealth in the middle of combat is possible but takes feats to be practical. You can't do everything.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Welcome to Pathfinder, the game of trap options and cool ideas that don't work and where being good at one thing > being mediocre at 5 things.

1. Rogue is a bad class. Unchained Rogue and Slayer are likely your best bets for what you are after. Slayer is pretty much a straight upgrade of Rogue in virtually every relevant aspect.

2. Pathfinder combat is about standing still and making full attacks. It does not lend itself well to mobile combatants of any sorts. You can make it work (using a truckload of feats), but even then your damage output will fall behind regular fighting characters and you might be left frustrated that your dash in and dash out character is inflicting silly low damage.

3. You can go mobile combatant, you can go ranged attacker, you can be stealthy, you can go combat maneuvres. But you can't go all at once. Pathfinder rewards hyperspecialisation and punishes dabbling all over the place, so your best bet is a character that's really good at one thing. Yes, this means most non-caster characters are one-trick ponies, that's how the system works. You find that one thing you really want to do in combat and you go all-in with feats and items to support that playstyle.


Making it into spoilers because its really long.

Spoiler:

1) Sneak attack works just as described in the ability. You have to be the one flanking, or the enemy needs to be "denied a Dexterity bonus to AC". It doesnt matter how you achieve those things, as long as they happen.

Feints work, but trips usually dont.

2) The "get in, get out" play style is very hard to achieve in Pathfinder. You are normally allowed only 1 move action (which provokes), so most characters want to stay still full attack and 5-ft step (does not provoke) as needed. You want feats and abilities that let you move as part of attacking, or that increase your attack when doing a standard action: There are too many too list here, but know that its very resource intensive so do look before making a choice.

Rogues get access to Fast Getaway, which lets you use the Withdraw Actions as a move action after a successful sneak attack. Withdraw is the equivalent of Disengage.

3) Ninja is an Alternate Class to Rogue and it keeps a sizeable amount of abilities from Rogue. As such, Ninja can take any Rogue Archetype that alters/replaces features it still has.

You can be a Scout Ninja.

3) You are spreading your self way too thin wanting to do too many things at once. Catfolk Exemplar, Nimble Striker, Claw Pounce, that is already 3 feats so you are at lv 5 unless you multiclassed. Going for decent at ranged requires Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot, otherwise you are okayish at best, -4 to attack is no joke so now you are leve 9 unless you multiclassed. Wanting to be good at getting out of trouble requires some investment and depending on which option can be anything from a single Rogue talent to a full feat tree.

Before you settle on anything you need to decide what will be your main combat ability/routine. Then decide how many feats and talents you want to spend on other things. You can have a short bow as a secondary weapon with no feat support just incase, but it wont be very useful.

4) Most Rogue Talents are really good, in their respective scenario. But some talents arent worth it, unless you are building for it, so be warry of it.

On that note, keep in mind that PFSRD also has 3rd party content. Trick Shot and Wall Mastery Rogue Talents are both Drop Dead 3rd party content, so you will need GM clearance to use them.

5) Rogue Magic talents are really debatable based on what it is you get. On the other hand, Ninja tricks can be really useful as long as you meet the conditions; Many Ninja trick require that the Rogue has a Ki Pool to work. Invisibility and Shadow Clones (Mirror Image) are specially useful.

Also keep in mind that you can get the Stalker Rogue talent. It lets you pick a single Stalker Vigilante talent, which is often worth more than 1 feat.

Spoiler:

Dont worry about asking the forums are pretty chill about giving advice. But careful with the prompt, things can get pretty crazy.

Having said that I gave you some quick things based on what you asked but here are a few other important considerstions:

Decide whether you will use Rogue or Unchained Rogue. Unchained Rogue is considerably better and fixes many of the problems that regular Rogue has.

When building a character there are roughly 3 schools of though in pathfinder. No multiclass which is basically class as is, nice and simple. Minimum dip, take 1-3 levels of other classes (Ex: Fighter, Monk, Vigilante, etc.) with the goal of getting bonus more abilities/feats this is often very helpful. And finaly, dip as much as you can afford, the goals being to create crazy combos and synergies, this can be very hard to pull off if you dont know what you are/or want to do. So always keep in mind that getting an ability from another class might help your character in the long run.

long thing about Spring Attack weirdness:

Its easily the most feat intensive build in the game and its best accomplised with Warrior Poet Samurai or Vigilante. It takes 8+ feats to get the full build: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Nimble Moves, I. Spring Attack, G. Spring Attack, Spring-Heeled Style, Spring-Heeled Sprint (double move distance).

Warrior Poet benefits because they get the 3 Spring Attack feats for free (no need for pre-reqs), up to +30 untyped move speed (so Spring Attack becomes 120 ft, and then doubles to 240 ft), free Vital Strike and access to Spring Attack Vital Strike (normally impossible), and Feint as part of Spring Attack (which means you can Sneak attack). Honestly, I 100% recomend at least a 1 level dip into Warrior Poet for Improved Feint + Feint as part of move action move, it can greatly help with mobility and applying Sneak Attack. So they are saving at least 5 feats, while still getting other bonuses.

Vigilante gets an extra 2 targets (at high level), potentially without penalties at no feat cost.

Spring attack works well and fine, but its really a gorilla/attrition game style, when everyone else is probably going into heavy hits, burst, and/or Nova.

made last section into spoiler as well

Grand Lodge

For flanking, you need to be directly opposite from an ally under most circumstances (not just both of you threatening like in 5e). This will give you a +2 bonus to hit and enable you to sneak attack.

You can also enable your sneak attack by any means that denies your target their dex bonus, such as invisibility and stealth, blinding them, attacking them while they are grappled, etc.

Combat maneuvers are a bit of a trap for rogues, your maneuver bonus will not be able to keep up with the maneuver defense of most enemies as you level up. If you take the Agile Maneuvers trait, you can mitigate this some, but as a reduced base attack bonus class, it still wont be your strong suit.

The unchained rogue is mechanically stronger than the core version of the rogue, it gives you weapon finesse for free, and lets you choose a weapon to add your dexterity bonus to your damage (in your case, probably your claws), gives your sneak attack some bonus debuffs, and a few other fun things. It is still compatible with most of the archetypes.

Scout is a strong archetype, if you are working your way towards Claw Pounce it is very strong, as you can pounce to get your sneak attack instead of needing to worry about flanking or other means of enabling your sneak damage.

Catfolk have a nice racial weapon called Claw Blades, which lets you use your claws with nice things like special materials, and enchant them like normal weapons. Which is overall better than having to buy an Amulet of Mighty Fists to make your claws magical.

Grand Lodge

As Gorbacz mentioned, the Slayer is a great class as well. It has a lot of Rogue flavor, but is a bit more combat focused. You give up a few skill points, and a bit of sneak attack damage to get higher base attack, and access to some unique Slayer and Ranger options.


Slyme wrote:
Combat maneuvers are a bit of a trap for rogues, your maneuver bonus will not be able to keep up with the maneuver defense of most enemies as you level up. If you take the Agile Maneuvers trait, you can mitigate this some, but as a reduced base attack bonus class, it still wont be your strong suit.

Not really, they just need to get one of the surprise maneuvers feat or the redirect force ninja trick. They stack, but even one of them is usually enough.

Some combat maneuvers can use weapon finesse instead of agile maneuvers, and the unchained rogue gets weapon finesse for free.


Madfrawgs wrote:
attacks with a "get in, get out" attitude, in that I hit hard with my claws and GTFO so I don't take much damage with my soft little body

For that, I'd have you dip a level in Arcanist. There is an Arcane Exploit you can take called Dimensional Slide which is a 10' Teleport that you can do as part of your Move and does not end your turn the way Dimension Door does. 10' isn't very far, but it is good

Slyme wrote:
For flanking,
avr wrote:
flanking

There are a lot of ways to lock in Sneak Attack Damage. I recommend you have at least a couple. Which ones are best depends on how you want your character to work in Combat. Do you want to Full Attack, Move all around the battlefield, or do you want to hang back and be a Sniper?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

How adamant are you on playing a Rogue? Because even unRogue (unchained Rogue) is one of the worst classes to play for a first character. Rogue has a lot of weaknesses, and while it is totally possible to create a fairly strong Rogue, it's far from easy or intuitive. You need to know those weaknesses, and how to overcome them.

Rogue's main problem is that the class is not as advertised. Many players think that they have to play a Rogue to play a rogue. The thing is that the Pathfinder Rogue is pretty much the opposite of a rogue!

A rogue is generally a bit of a loner, stealthy, good at many things, and a master of precice, deadly attacks. A Pathfinder Rogue is extremly dependent on teamwork *, is not particular good at skills (and especially not at the stuff you want to use skills for) **, way worse at stealth than almost any arcane caster, and can't hit the broad side of a barn without an ally on the other side of it saying "strike this way" ***.

*) Flanking is the best way to get Sneak Attack, and Unchained Rogue's main Debilitating Injury is only really a good thing if others profit from it.
**) Sure, a Rogue has a lot of skill ranks, but a big number in "total skill points" in the character sheet is not the ultimate goal - the ultimate goal is to be good at many things. Yes, he has more skill points to put in climb, stealth etc. than a Sorcerer, but that guy can simply use Spider Climb/Fly and Invisibility. Also, he doesn't have the attributes for a good charisma without crippling his combat capability, so he'll never be as good a suave, charismatic guy as for instance a Bard.
***) Despite the main damage source being "precision damage", the rogue is extremly geared towards many inaccurate attacks. Even more so for Unchained Rogue (which is a straight upgrade but doesn't really fix the problems).

Madfrawgs wrote:
-generally rogue-y for sneaking, picking locks, potentially pick pocketing

Using stealth in-fight is almost impossible to pull off, and for sneaking out of combat, you really want soemone who can cast Invisibility. How useful stealth, lockpicking, and pickpocketing are depends on the campaing (don't expect the latter to be relevant too much), but none of these require being a Rogue. Remember that a Splinter Cell style gameplay doesn't work too well in a team game!

Madfrawgs wrote:
-she can be the face of the party for getting cheaper prices of gear/better appraisals

Even if it does work that way, which it usually doesn't, Rogue is a poor class for that. You gain very little from Charisma and it's a low priority for you, because you need high Dex, Con, and Wis.

Madfrawgs wrote:
-attacks with a "get in, get out" attitude, in that I hit hard with my claws and GTFO so I don't take much damage with my soft little body

That's something almost impossible to pull off in Pathfinder. There's Spring Attack, but a single attack doesn't do you much good. In general, you're expected to stay in front.

Claw Pounce is very nice... having to wait until 14th level isn't.

Madfrawgs wrote:
-decent enough at ranged attacks (probably with short bow)

Since using Sneak Attack at range rarely happens unless you invest a lot into it, Rogue doesn't really help you there. In general, while having a backup ranged option is a very good idea, it's not an easy thing to make work. Rogue needs to spend a bunch just to get Sneak Attack reliably to work, and you also need to shore up the lousy defenses.

My suggestion would be to check out Slayer and Investigator, both different flavors or rogue-ish classes. Archaeologist Bard is another option. Warrior Poet Samurai does the spring attack stuff comperatively well ("comperatively" being the operative word; such playstyle doesn't mix well with many groups).


Going in a different direction, i propose The Swashbuckler class for your Catfolk “Rogue”.

Reasoning:
(1) It’s actually effective - your attack rolls will even hit things
(2) Good first class for pathfinder
(3) Not frustratingly full attack reliant
(4) Not frustratingly flank reliant
(5) Can be your face/cha character - its not Cha focused, but it is a secondary ability and it has the class skills
(6) Can be reasonably mobile in combat
(7) Extra combat feats means you probably eventually could use a bow on occasion.
(8) It is fundamentally a dexy finesse damage class

Downsides:
Not a claw user, which may have been the core vision. But there’s always Puss in Boots. While natural attacks can be effective (even overpowered) in Pathfinder, they can also be underwhelming if not built aggressively, with claw-based catfolk being an example of the ‘underwhelming’ side of things.
Doesnt have class skills/features for sneak or some other rogue stuff. You can take traits for that, but there arent generally classes that are good at both social skills and shadowy thief skills, so maybe prioritize.


Hah. Well, maybe I scrap the Rogue idea, since it is clearly very different from the rogues I am used to playing, and might cause me more confusion and harm than good in the heat of a battle...

Thank you so much everyone for all the advice.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I don't think the rogue is underpowered. However, your specific concept, a claw-wielding sneak attacking death machine, is something of a hybrid concept and I think Slayer will get you there easier.


Madfrawgs wrote:
Well, maybe I scrap the Rogue idea, since it is clearly very different from the rogues I am used to playing

This is exactly why I was so direct with my posts. I've seen multiple people whose expectations were tinted by "Rogues" in other games, and presumed that Rogue in PF was a good fit for their character concept - which is almost never the case.

The whole classis basically a huge pile of false advertising. Rogue isn't really that good at stealth (or at skills in general), it's far from being the master of swift, silent killing, and the trap handling stuff is useless most of the time, too.
The kinda cliche but probably actually rather common example is the guy who wants to play a lone wolf backstabbing-type character and gets fixated on Rogue. In practice, a Slayer with Studied Target or Investigator with Studied Combat/Strike is probably a way better fit - these abilities are much closer to the concept of "striking where it hurts the most" or "carefully evaluating a target's weak point" than the Rogue's 'Sneak Attack' which is triggered by teamwork 90% of the time (and if it isn't, probably by Shatter Defenses, or Circling Mongoose). You might also have notices that none of these methods of doing Sneak Attacks are actually sneaky, quite the contrary.
Likewise, if people want to be good at skills, they might think the classes with 8 ranks/level are best, but in practice, not all skills are equally important. If you want to be actually good at those skills that are, you need bonuses, which Rogue and Ninja don't grant (unRogue has the skill unlocks, but almost all of them suck, only intimidate is really noteworthy). Slayer, Bard, Alchemist, Investigator, or Vigilante might have slightly fewer ranks, but bonuses (and often magic to do what you'd do with skills), and thus are better at doing that job.

Your idea (or part of the idea) to "hit hard with my claws" even when starting the turn non-adjacent is actually very good in Pathfinder; overall, abilities like Claw Pounce are very powerful. Builds using such abilities are actually the best when it comes to quickly killing someone, but note that strength-based is usually best for that goal (and Rogue is possibly the worst class do do that).

Overall, you should not try to do too many things for your first character, as Pathfinder isn't really a good system for that. It's not that a damage dealer shouldn't have some skills, and stuff like that, quite the contrary, but mind your limited recources (especially feats). That goes double for a martial character that has a specific combat style that requires feats to work in mind.
Speaking of which, for your first character, you shouldn't focus too much on specific concepts for combat, like the "in-and-out" stuff, as they often don't translate well to Pathfinder. Basically, keep it simple.
One important thing is that you don't "tank" in Pathfinder, all melee chaeracters are expected to be able to take a few hits. For instance, a Rogue should have around the same AC as a Fighter, and be only a few HP behind.
Another thing to remember is that Pathfinder is a team game. Things that don't work when the team is present probably aren't a good idea.

My suggestion: Break down your character concept to the most basic level. What do you want? Don't concentrate on classes or specific options yet (don't get distracted names!), just outline the foundation of your vision. There're differences between "cat-themed" and "catfolk", "natural attacks" and "claws", between "agile" and "moves around the battlefield", and so on. It's totally possible to incorporate a specific option as a sort of corner stone, but there shouldn't be a dozen of them. It's often impossible to say for others what is part of the actual concept and what was selected because the player thought they had to select it.


Madfrawgs wrote:

Hah. Well, maybe I scrap the Rogue idea, since it is clearly very different from the rogues I am used to playing, and might cause me more confusion and harm than good in the heat of a battle...

Thank you so much everyone for all the advice.

Well, let's not be hasty. We want you to have a powerful character, but we also want you to have the kind of character you want. Sneak Attacking can be a wonderful way to do lots of damage in melee. You might be well-advised not to be a single Class Rogue, but that doesn't mean you should abandon Rogue altogether.

I'd like the answer to my question. What do you want to do in combat: Full Attack, Move around, skirmisher or shock trooper, or hang back and shoot people? Then let's talk about whether or not you should take any levels in Rogue.

Derklord wrote:
My suggestion: Break down your character concept to the most basic level. What do you want? Don't concentrate on classes or specific options yet (don't get distracted names!), just outline the foundation of your vision.

Do that.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Help with a Pathfinder 1e Catfolk Rogue build and game mechanics questions All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion