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Ok, so this really a question about how Fighter's Bravery class feature works.
The question is, Bravery says "anytime you gain the frightened condition, reduce its value by 1."
and
Dirge of Doom says "They can't reduce their frightened value below 1 while they remain in the area."
The Fighter argued that the Bravery triggers before Dirge even applies, and so never gets the frightened condition at all. I was wondering if there was a specific ruling on this.
The Fighter argued that the Bravery triggers before Dirge even applies, and so never gets the frightened condition at all.
You, by definition, can't reduce your frightened condition by 1 if you don't have the frightened condition to reduce. The fighter's argument doesn't really make sense.
On top of that, Dirge of Doom specifically says you cannot reduce the frightened condition below 1, so even with Bravery, he's still Frightened. So unless he moves out of the area, he's still Frightened.
Specific trumps General.
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Isn't Bravery just as specific as Dirge of Doom though? It's interesting to contrast Bravery's wording with Aura of Courage.
Bravery says: "Anytime you gain the frightened condition, reduce its value by 1." The relevant part of Aura of Courage says: "Whenever you become frightened, reduce the condition value by 1 (to a minimum of 0)." It's odd that Bravery doesn't specify a minimum value, but I think that's an editing issue; you can't have a negative Frightened condition!
Both abilties pretty directly contradicts Dirge of Doom, which says: "Foes within the area are frightened 1. They can’t reduce their frightened value below 1 while they remain in the area". It's also interesting to wonder how Shatter Defenses works with Bravery/Aura of Courage. Shatter Defenses says: "If the target was already flat-footed to you when you damaged it with this Strike, it can’t reduce its frightened value below 1 until the start of your next turn."
So you have two abilities that automatically reduce Frightened by 1 (one specifies to a minimum of 0), and two abilities that prevent you reducing Frightened to less than 1. Which ones takes precedence?
I think I'd rule that these abilities are all contradictory, and are all equally specific, so the higher level character takes precedence. If both sides are equal level, either defer to the PC's ability, or flip a coin (DC 11 Flat Check) to see which one wins.
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I don't see these as contradictory. Dirge of Doom prevents the Fear level from being reduced below 1. So Bravery kicks in, and reduces it to 1, because that's as low as it can go.
They aren't contradictory at all. One says reduce a value, the others say that value can't be reduced. If it isn't referring to this ability that it specifically uses the same language for, what is it referring to?
A Fighter gets affected by Dirge of Doom or Shatter Defenses. He becomes Frightened 1. His Bravery triggers, because that is the trigger for the ability. It should REDUCE the Frightened, but doesn't, because of the line in those abilities that say IT CAN'T BE REDUCED.
Fighter leaves the area of Dirge of Doom, it immediately reduces his Frightened condition, instead of having to wait until the end of his turn like everyone else.
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They aren't contradictory at all. One says reduce a value, the others say that value can't be reduced. If it isn't referring to this ability that it specifically uses the same language for, what is it referring to?
One says do a thing, the other says STOP, ITS HAMMER TIME.
So you stop. Its Hammer Time.
Fighter remains Frightened 1.
And who is deciding which rule has precedence?
As a bard I'd say: Well, here in my rule it states that you can't reduce your condition value below 1 while in the area, so your ability is invalid.
And as a fighter I'd say: Well, and in my ability it states anytime I gain the condition I reduce it by 1, so I don't care about your ability.
So what is more absolute? Can't reduce or always reduce?
Which is more specific?
- Anytime
- This area, right now
Which is more specific?
- Anytime
- This area, right now
Which one is more specific?
- I am immune to all fire damage
- This fireball deals 6d6 fire damage in this 20ft spread
I am not talking about specificness but about absoluteness, and I am not yet entirely convinced that Dirge of Doom's wording beats Bravery's wording.
So for my example something explicit like: "Disregard all resistances or immunity to fire when dealing that damage."
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So for my example something explicit like: "Disregard all resistances or immunity to fire when dealing that damage."
Notably something that Bravery does not have an equivalent to.
I think your example works against your position, because it runs parallel to the situation here.
In the same vein as your example, we have Dirge effectively granting an immunity (an immunity to Frightened dropping to 0) and a skill that normally reduces the Frightened condition, but does not have any provisions for bypassing such an immunity in it.
Arguing that Bravery supersedes Dirge is, effectively, arguing that Fireball supersedes immunity to fire damage.
I think your example works against your position...
To be honest I don't have a position here, just running a little devils advocate in order to fool-proof our mutual rules clarification.
However and having conducted a little search the use of "reduce by" seems consistent thoughout the CRB so I give you that and concur to the most probable line of reasoning.
Which one is more specific?
- I am immune to all fire damage
- This fireball deals 6d6 fire damage in this 20ft spread
So for my example something explicit like: "Disregard all resistances or immunity to fire when dealing that damage."
Which one is more specific?
- Immunity to all fire damage
- A Fire spell that says "Disregard all resistances or immunity to fire when dealing that damage."
Which one is more specific?
- Reduce Frightened by 1
- Cause Frightened 1 that cannot be reduced
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If bravery were supposed to overrule Dirge of Doom, it would have a clause something like "even if the value could not normally be reduced"
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If bravery were supposed to overrule Dirge of Doom, it would have a clause something like "even if the value could not normally be reduced"
Yep. This.
Dirge of Doom has language specifically overruling Bravery's effects, while Bravery has no specific language overruling Dirge of Doom, so Bravery doesn't work on Dirge of Doom.
If bravery were supposed to overrule Dirge of Doom, it would have a clause something like "even if the value could not normally be reduced"
Yes, I was just a little surprised because I read the clause "They can't reduce their frightened value below 1 while they remain in the area." as something which is an exception to the general frightened conditions clause "unless specified otherwise, at the end of each of your turns..." and not as an exception to all spells and abilities that would otherwise reduce your frightened status.
Still feels strange that Dirge of Doom plain beats (equivalent?) abilities like Bravery, Aura of Courage or Veil of Confidence, however under the current wording this seems most correct.