Not a Musket. Not an Axe. All he knows is what he's not (or does he?)


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

So, Axe/Warhammer Muskets. Let's look at the Axe Musket:

Axe Musket wrote:
This short musket features an axe blade at the end of its barrel. It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe. It is considered a double weapon for the purposes of creating masterwork or magical versions of this weapon. If this firearm gains the broken condition, both the firearm component and the axe are considered broken. An axe musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition. This is an early firearm.

1) Does Weapon Focus[Axe Musket] apply to both ranged (Musket) and melee (Battleaxe) attacks? Do Weapon Focus [Battleaxe] and Weapon Focus [Musket] apply at all? If so, do they apply only to melee (Battleaxe) and ranged (Musket) attacks respectively?

2) Does the effect of the Guided Hand feat apply? If so, does it apply only when using the right end of the weapon? For example, a follower of Sekhmet using Wis for Battleaxe attack rolls, but not Musket ones. Or does it always apply since the weapon can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe, as opposed to either?

3) Does a Gunslinger regain grit when using either end of the weapon, since it is, intrinsically, a firearm? Or only when critting/killing with a Musket attack?


This is a good question. It is also relevant for fighters, since certain prerequisites for feats list "weapon training class feature with a melee/ranged weapon".


Gray Warden wrote:
Does Weapon Focus[Axe Musket] apply to both ranged (Musket) and melee (Battleaxe) attacks?

You mean does this musketeer get the +1 for both shooting and hacking? I don't see why he wouldn't. Doesn't Weapon Focus Short Spear give you your bonus for both stabbing and throwing?

Gray Warden wrote:
Weapon Focus [Battleaxe] and Weapon Focus [Musket] apply at all?

I don't think so:

Firearms wrote:
Even though the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat grants you proficiency with all firearms, anytime you take a feat that modifies a single type of weapon (such as Weapon Focus or Rapid Reload), you must still pick one specific type of firearm (such as musket, axe musket, blunderbuss, pistol, or double pistol) for that feat to affect.

If you don't pick Weapon Focus Axe Musket, you don't get a +1 with an Axe Musket.

Gray Warden wrote:
Does the effect of the Guided Hand feat apply? If so, does it apply only when using the right end of the weapon?

If your deity's favored weapon is Axe Musket, I think you are golden. The Firearms rule I quoted above says to me that your Guided Hand Feat has to be specifically for Axe Musket. Although since Guided Hand only requires proficiency in the deity's favored weapon, that might be adequiate. It's a case you can make for your GM. I have no idea what, if any deities favor Axe Musket.

Gray Warden wrote:
Does a Gunslinger regain grit when using either end of the weapon,

I would say that if it is an attack with a firearm, then it is a firearm attack. I have also heard that Grit and Panache are the same thing, and you don't need to shoot anybody to gain Panache.

Silver Crusade

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Gray Warden wrote:
Weapon Focus [Battleaxe] and Weapon Focus [Musket] apply at all?

I don't think so:

Firearms wrote:
Even though the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat grants you proficiency with all firearms, anytime you take a feat that modifies a single type of weapon (such as Weapon Focus or Rapid Reload), you must still pick one specific type of firearm (such as musket, axe musket, blunderbuss, pistol, or double pistol) for that feat to affect.

If you don't pick Weapon Focus Axe Musket, you don't get a +1 with an Axe Musket.

Gray Warden wrote:
Does the effect of the Guided Hand feat apply? If so, does it apply only when using the right end of the weapon?
If your deity's favored weapon is Axe Musket, I think you are golden. The Firearms rule I quoted above says to me that your Guided Hand Feat has to be specifically for Axe Musket. Although since Guided Hand only requires proficiency in the deity's favored weapon, that might be adequiate. It's a case you can make for your GM. I have no idea what, if any deities favor Axe Musket.

How do you reconcile these positions with RAW?

If an Axe Musket "can be used as [...] a battleaxe", then how does it not benefit from effects that affect a Battleaxe?


What effects are you referring to? Are we still talking about Feats?

Silver Crusade

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
What effects are you referring to? Are we still talking about Feats?

For example, Weapon Focus[Battleaxe] and Guided Hand[Sekhmet].

If something can be used as a Battleaxe, I would assume it would benefit from +1 and Wis to hit from those feats.

Similarly, if something does not benefit from those feats, I would say it means it doesn't work as a Battleaxe.


It's a single weapon that is a musket axe not 2 different weapons. So weapon focus in battle axe or musket doesnt work. Plus side you get both in one for this weapon.

If you're ok with using guiding hands because it's an axe by way of personal taste then it wouldn't work with it while using it as a musket, one would think.


Okay, you are saying that if you are proficient with a Battle Axe, you should be able to use an Axe Musket as a Melee Weapon, "as a Battle Axe." and if you have Weapon Focus Battle Axe, you should get a +1 on your Attack Rolls for melee attacks with the Axe Musket?

Or if you actually hold this view, you are at least thinking maybe and wondering why or shy not?

It is not by RAW that I would allow you to do that. Conceptually, if you can wield it like a battle axe, I'd let you, and you'd just have a penalty when you started shooting and/or loading.

Per RAW, an Axe Musket is a Firearm. Exotic Weapon Proficiency Firearm is necessary to wield an Axe Musket proficiently, and proficiency in any firearm gives you proficiency with an Ax Musket. And per the RAW I quoted, the Weapon Focus must be specific to the Axe Musket, and that proficiency would give you the +1 for both the melee and ranged aspects. And per RAW, I don't think that Weapon Focus Axe Musket counts for Weapon Focus Battle Axe. An my justification per RAW is what the Firearms rules say about what Feats you have to take vis a vis EWP and Weapon Focus.

I can give you another example per RAW. The Axe Musket is in the Firearms Fighter Weapon Group, but not in the Axes Weapon Group.


Quote:
It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe.

I guess this is the troublesome text. The problem is that it's really very vague. It could mean that all abilities and modifiers that apply to one can be applied to the other. Or it may just mean that you can both shoot with it and hit with it. Without some sort of developer feedback, I don't think there will be a definitive answer.


I'm looking at it like another dual weapon. The sling staff. Is it a sling? A staff?(well. Club.)
Turns out answer was neither and both. For feats and abilities it wasn't, such as the halfling racial ability that affected slings. But you could use it as a sling and a staff.(well. Club.)
Best to treat it like it's own thing I guess.


What these weapons were missing from their description is something like "...the melee and ranged weapons from which the two aspects of this weapon are derived are considered to be those weapons for all effects and purposes. The only unique benefit this weapon confers is in allowing a character to hold both a melee and ranged weapon simultaneously at no penalty."

Personally, I believe that was the RAI.

However, they didn't add that in, so now we have this mess.


Would have been helpful.


If we read "can be used as both..." to mean something other than "can be used as either...", we run into issues. Like, if it had said "either," when are you allowed to switch? Maybe the moment you pick it up you must choose, and you can never change it? That would be a technically accurate reading.

For weapon focus, the deciding factor is if "using a weapon as" a specific weapon is the same as "using a specific weapon". Off the cuff, I'd say it is. So weapon focus (battleaxe) means you get a +1 on attack rolls. When you're using it like a battle axe.

Same with the Guided Hand and grit/panache. If you're using it as a weapon that benefits from those abilities, congrats. If you're using it as something else, too bad.
If you can somehow use it as both at the same time...then...I guess...show me what that even looks like.


Oddly there's not a lot of Golarion deities with the battleaxe as their favored weapon. One orc deity, an asura rana, a lion-headed deity of Ancient Egypt Osirion, and a demon lord. Probably only the demon lord (Haagenti) would be appropriate to teach the use of an axe musket or to guide your hand with it in battle.

I mean, Sekhmet probably considers an iron battleaxe to be dangerously modern, never mind this powdered brimstone and bat guano nonsense.


Just to make things more confusing there is this text from the Adventurers armory.

AA wrote:

This list of weapons supplements the list in the Pathfinder RPG Core

Rulebook . If a weapon’s description says it is “treated as” another
weapon, a character lacking the appropriate exotic weapon proficiency, can still use it as if it were the other kind of weapon and feats
such as Weapon Focus still apply, as do abilities requiring a certain weapon. For example, the butterfly knife allows a proficient user to open or close it as a free action and is otherwise treated as a dagger, meaning she can wield it as a dagger, gain the benefit of Weapon Focus (dagger) when wielding it, use it as the target of a spell that only affects daggers, and so on.


Talonhawke wrote:

Just to make things more confusing there is this text from the Adventurers armory.

AA wrote:

This list of weapons supplements the list in the Pathfinder RPG Core

Rulebook . If a weapon’s description says it is “treated as” another
weapon, a character lacking the appropriate exotic weapon proficiency, can still use it as if it were the other kind of weapon and feats
such as Weapon Focus still apply, as do abilities requiring a certain weapon. For example, the butterfly knife allows a proficient user to open or close it as a free action and is otherwise treated as a dagger, meaning she can wield it as a dagger, gain the benefit of Weapon Focus (dagger) when wielding it, use it as the target of a spell that only affects daggers, and so on.

Well, that seems to settle the question. Could you link to it on a webpage? It sounds like you are quoting from paper.


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No direct link but it's the section right above this one.


I'm confused how it settles the question as the ax musket doesnt say "treated as" anything in its description. The write up quoted says " If a weapon’s description says it is “treated as” another weapon..."

Not applicable.


Cavall wrote:

I'm confused how it settles the question as the ax musket doesnt say "treated as" anything in its description. The write up quoted says " If a weapon’s description says it is “treated as” another weapon..."

Not applicable.

I don't know what to say, here. Maybe?


Cavall wrote:
I'm confused how it settles the question...

So we need to determine if "is treated as" is mechanically different from "can be used as".

I can't really see a situation where you're treating object X like object Y, but you're not using object X as object Y.
If there was a spell like "detect battleaxe", you couldn't detect an axe musket because you're not "using" it like an axe, merely "treating" it like one. But if you're allowed to use an axe musket as an axe and a musket, you're certainly treating it like both as well. Using is just a more specific aspect of treating.

So weapon proficiency/focus, guided hand grit and panache all work. But still only when the weapon is being used as the type of weapon that works with it.
Weapon focus (battleaxe) won't get you a +1 to shoot, guided hand won't add wisdom to shoot, and grit won't work when you're chopping dudes in the face. Because in each of those moments, the weapon is counted as something other than what works with the ability.


It would be something useful to determine. We lack a lot of tools needed to determine it though. It may be hard to determine it.

However, as I pointed out a while back sling staff can be looked at. It doesnt have "treated as" in it. And we know racial ability war slinger does NOT affect sling staffs, even though it's like a club and a sling. If it DID have treated as, according to that quote above, it would be getting the benefit.

Since it doesn't state that and isnt treated as a sling for war slinger, we can assume the words "treated as" must be present. They are not for an ax musket so it doesnt gain the benefit.

Which, honestly isnt really how I would run it or want it, But RAW and given what we have provided, that's what I came up with. I'm not seeing as many examples supporting the opposite.


Gray Warden wrote:

So, Axe/Warhammer Muskets. Let's look at the Axe Musket:

Axe Musket wrote:
This short musket features an axe blade at the end of its barrel. It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe. It is considered a double weapon for the purposes of creating masterwork or magical versions of this weapon. If this firearm gains the broken condition, both the firearm component and the axe are considered broken. An axe musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition. This is an early firearm.

1) Does Weapon Focus[Axe Musket] apply to both ranged (Musket) and melee (Battleaxe) attacks? Do Weapon Focus [Battleaxe] and Weapon Focus [Musket] apply at all? If so, do they apply only to melee (Battleaxe) and ranged (Musket) attacks respectively?

2) Does the effect of the Guided Hand feat apply? If so, does it apply only when using the right end of the weapon? For example, a follower of Sekhmet using Wis for Battleaxe attack rolls, but not Musket ones. Or does it always apply since the weapon can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe, as opposed to either?

3) Does a Gunslinger regain grit when using either end of the weapon, since it is, intrinsically, a firearm? Or only when critting/killing with a Musket attack?

Ref: Axe Musket

1) Weapon Focus(Axe Musket) will not apply to axes or muskets, just like WF(Short Sword) does not apply to Long Swords. Likewise WF(Musket) does not apply to Axe Muskets. It does, however, apply to both melee and ranged uses of the weapon, just like WF(dagger).

2) If you find a deity with it, then it applies to all uses of the weapon. But if the deity's weapon is an Axe or a Musket, then it is not the Axe Musket, and therefore the feat does not apply.

3) Yes. The Axe Musket is listed as a firearm, so you can regain grit with it both when you fire it and when you use it as an axe. In fact, a regular mucked, used to whack someone upside the head as an improvised weapon, can regain grit if it satisfies the condition.

Gray Warden wrote:

How do you reconcile these positions with RAW?

If an Axe Musket "can be used as [...] a battleaxe", then how does it not benefit from effects that affect a Battleaxe?

If you have a feat that applies to all axes, they it should apply to the Axe Musket. Weapon Focus is not such a feat.

/cevah


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Cavall wrote:
...sling staff can be looked at. It doesnt have "treated as" in it...Since it doesn't state that and isnt treated as a sling for war slinger, we can assume the words "treated as" must be present. They are not for an ax musket so it doesnt gain the benefit

That seems like a fallacy.

From sling staff:

"Your Strength modifier applies to damage rolls when you use a halfling sling staff just as it does for thrown weapons. You can fire, but not load, a halfling sling staff with one hand. You can hurl ordinary stones with a halfling sling staff, but stones are not as dense or as round as bullets. Thus, such an attack deals damage as if the weapon were designed for a creature one size category smaller than you and you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls. A halfling sling staff can be used as a simple weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a club of its size."

--so no, it doesn't say "treated as", but it also doesn't say "used as", either. The sling portion is outlined entirely independently of a normal sling, does more damage at a greater range, etc.
The club portion isn't even a club; you don't treat it like one or use it like one. You simply use it "as a simple weapon the deals...damage equal to that of a club."

This is very clearly a different sort of issue all together. This is a weapon that functions *similarly* to a combination of two other weapons, not one that *is* a combination of two other weapons.

Cevah wrote:
Weapon Focus[/url](Axe Musket) will not apply to axes or muskets, just like WF(Short Sword) does not apply to Long Swords.

But what if you had an exotic sword with the description "can be used as a longsword and a shortsword"?

Cevah wrote:
The Axe Musket is listed as a firearm, so you can regain grit with it both when you fire it and when you use it as an axe. In fact, a regular mucked, used to whack someone upside the head as an improvised weapon, can regain grit if it satisfies the condition.

Actually, that's interesting. If you're "using a weapon as" another weapon, does it lose those of it's properties that the weapon you're using at as doesn't have?

I'd have to say...no? "using as X" definitely implies that it is not "actually X", which means it must also still be whatever it was before you used it as anything else. So, even when it's used as a battleaxe, it's still a firearm.

Cevah wrote:
If you have a feat that applies to all axes, they it should apply to the Axe Musket. Weapon Focus is not such a feat.

But if you have weapon focus (battleaxe) and the weapon you're wielding is being "used as a battleaxe"...I don't see how your argument counters that.

So, I'll revise my current stance: still seems like weapon focus and guided hand work fine as previously stated. But the weapon as a whole is a firearm, so...I guess grit/panache and such work all the time.


Quixote wrote:
Cevah wrote:
Weapon Focus(Axe Musket) will not apply to axes or muskets, just like WF(Short Sword) does not apply to Long Swords.

But what if you had an exotic sword with the description "can be used as a longsword and a shortsword"?

...

Cevah wrote:
If you have a feat that applies to all axes, then it should apply to the Axe Musket. Weapon Focus is not such a feat.

But if you have weapon focus (battleaxe) and the weapon you're wielding is being "used as a battleaxe"...I don't see how your argument counters that.

So, I'll revise my current stance: still seems like weapon focus and guided hand work fine as previously stated. But the weapon as a whole is a firearm, so...I guess grit/panache and such work all the time.

The Sun Blade works as a bastard sword and as a short sword, and calls out WF in either works with it. Why call it out if it is the default of use as two kinds of weapons?

I stand by saying WF(BattleAxe) does not affect an Axe Musket.

/cevah

Silver Crusade

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Cevah wrote:
If you have a feat that applies to all axes, they it should apply to the Axe Musket. Weapon Focus is not such a feat.

The weapon description says that the Axe Musket "can be used as [...] a battleaxe", not just an axe. You statement should have been:

"If you have a feat that applies to all axes battleaxes, then it should apply to the Axe Musket. Weapon Focus is not such a feat."


Cevah wrote:
The Sun Blade works as a bastard sword and as a short sword, and calls out WF in either works with it. Why call it out if it is the default of use as two kinds of weapons?

Unfortunately, Pathfinder is way too inconsistent in it's wording for us to be able to infer much about one situation from another.

Compare the sun blade to the sling staff to the axe musket. Similar situations, all different wording.

Cevah wrote:
I stand by saying WF(BattleAxe) does not affect an Axe Musket.

But why? What's your counter to "used as a battleaxe" not equaling "benefit from rules and effects that apply to battleaxes"?


Gray Warden wrote:
Cevah wrote:
If you have a feat that applies to all axes, then it should apply to the Axe Musket. Weapon Focus is not such a feat.

The weapon description says that the Axe Musket "can be used as [...] a battleaxe", not just an axe. You statement should have been:

"If you have a feat that applies to all axes battleaxes, then it should apply to the Axe Musket. Weapon Focus is not such a feat."

Since there is only one Battleaxe listed under weapons, applying to all battleaxes = applying only to battleaxe.

If you have a feat that applies to all muskets, it would apply to: Axe musket, Double-barreled musket, Dragoon Musket, Musket, and Warhammer musket.

Here is the text of the feat.

Weapon Focus (Combat) wrote:

Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.

Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

Clearly this feat applies to a specific weapon and not all similar weapons. Therefore, WF(Battleaxe) will not apply to an Axe Musket.

@Quixote: You already read my reasons. You choose to not agree. That's fine.

/cevah

Silver Crusade

Cevah wrote:
If you have a feat that applies to all muskets, it would apply to: Axe musket, Double-barreled musket, Dragoon Musket, Musket, and Warhammer musket.

Sure. And if you have a feat that applies to all battleaxes, it would apply to: battleaxe, weapons that "can be used as [...] a battleaxe".

Weird how logical implications work, uh.


Should not would. Still working that part out.


Cevah wrote:
You already read my reasons. You choose to not agree. That's fine.

I read your argument, presented an issue I have with it and asked for clarification. But okay.

Cevah wrote:
If you have a feat that applies to all muskets, it would apply to: Axe musket, Double-barreled musket, Dragoon Musket, Musket, and Warhammer musket.

This is actually more more compelling argument; the identity of a weapon type.

I'm still not sold; a musket is a musket and uses rule X, a double-barreled musket is a double-barreled musket and uses rule Y. An axe musket can be used as a musket and used rule X while being used as such. But now I'm slightly less sure than before.


People have argued that the flame blade spell's line about being used as a scimitar has no actual meaning. I expect the same argument could be applied here. YMMV.


What is the argument used?


It's not an argument I've made and so I don't think I should be the one to make it.


I agree it comes down to exactly what is meant by "used" in this context. If it came up in my game, I would rule thusly:

Martial Weapon Proficiency (Battleaxe) would allow you to use the axe part. Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) would allow you to use the gun part. You could also take EWP (Axe Musket) which would allow you to use both (but not any other guns or axes).

Weapon Focus (Battleaxe) would apply to attacks with the axe part. Weapon Focus (Musket) would apply to attacks with the gun part. You could also take Weapon Focus (Axe Musket) which would apply to both (but not any other guns or axes). They would not stack.

But I could not say that anyone who ruled otherwise would be wrong.

_
glass.


What glass said, but only because it explicitly says "can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe".

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