Firearms in Melee, how to avoid AoO?


Advice


So i want to use a pistol in melee combat... both as a firearm and as a melee weapon. How can i avoid AoO when firing said firearm when threatened? Even if i dont use the gun as a melee weapon and use something else, i still plan on being front and center.


POINT BLANK MASTER.

OR

Two levels of SAVAGE TECHNOLOGIST for the "Sword and Gun" ability.

Sword and Gun (Ex) wrote:
At 2nd level, when a raging savage technologist wields a one-handed firearm in one hand and a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other, she can make ranged attacks with the firearm without provoking attacks of opportunity. She also gains the benefits of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, but only if all attacks are made with those weapons. This ability replaces Uncanny Dodge.

I'm sure there are other options as well.


Is there anyway to grab Weapon Specialization without being a Fighter, or rather Point Blank Master without being a Ranger?

Iirc, there is a Druid(?) archetype that lets you pick up Ranger style feats.


I didn't even notice you need Weapon Specialization for Point Blank Master =P

There are a few classes that let you count your class levels (or half your level) as fighter levels for prerequisite feats, eg. Brawler and Magus (10th level for Magus).

There are also classes that let you count as a Fighter, but only for bonus feats, eg. Swashbuckler and Warpriest.

Finally there are classes that let you ignore the prerequisites for bonus feats, eg. Ranger and Monk.

If you don't have the class features for it there are some other ways to become eligible for Weapon Specialization, such as the QUARTERSTAFF MASTER feat. I don't know if there's anything like this for firearms - or any ranged weapons - but I would expect there's some way to do it.


As a gunslinger the pistol whip deed lets you use a pistol in melee - just not as a ranged weapon. The empty quiver style feat works similarly.

Any means of turning invisible or gaining concealment lets you avoid AoOs, unless your enemy can see invisible or has blindsight. Similarly if you can blind the enemy. There's dozens of ways of doing these in PF. Some aren't even magical.

Then there's directly stopping the enemy making AoOs. Various major debuffs do this (among other things), but there's also the slow reactions rogue talent and the litany of sloth inquisitor spell which only do this, and the meteor swing feat which only does this until BAB +11.

The air blessing (accessible to warpriests, and to other divine spellcasters who get the war blessing feat) takes a standard action to start but lets you ignore range penalties and AoOs for a minute.

Oh, and if none of these is possible for you for some weird reason then maxing your AC can have a similar effect...


The gunslingers have a unique option in the stock striker style.

Breaks the 3 feats down like this.

1. Gain a bonus to knock a guy down and then shoot which the prone person cant react with AoO to.

2. Push the guy away or hit a second one to know down as a swift. Now 2 people can not react.

3. Shoot as a move action but the person gains no cover for being prone and crit multiplier goes up by 1 to a max of x5.

It's a decent style when maxed out. Allows you to shoot multiple people far away while the close guy can not react with remaining BAB, or knock multiple people down to give freedom or lastly really hurt one guy badly with an almost instant write off if you crit.

Anyways. Does what you want and prereqs are easy.


Something to remember is that firearms provoke both for firing, and for reloading. Point Blank Master of Savage Technologist would not remove the latter.

Gunslinger has two ways around the issue (apart from Pistol Whip, which removes the biggest benefit of firearms): The Black Powder Vaulter archetype removes provoking from both at 7th level, but replaces some deeds (for pistol users Deadeye hurts most), while the Deft Shootist feat does the same, but has two annoying prereqs.


Dont think someone who wants to be frontlining wants to wait until 7th level to so it.

Mr Charisma seems to have a good solution, and the style feats not far behind to get started soon.


If all else fails, there's always the good old 5-foot step back. You'll use your Swift Action for the turn, but it'll work as long as you're not flanked.


Heather 540 wrote:
If all else fails, there's always the good old 5-foot step back. You'll use your Swift Action for the turn, but it'll work as long as you're not flanked.

A 5-foot step isn't a swift action, it's a free action.


I went the Deft Shootist route on my Gunslinger(Gun Tank)/Warpriest. Absolutely worth it. Having both Dodge and Mobility opens you up for some other fun feats, too.

Most important for Deft Shootist is that it prevents the AoO for both reloading and firing. Things like Point Bank Master just cover firing.

At lower levels I kept an axe handy in case someone closed to melee. Just get a weapon cord, drop your gun as a free action and start hacking away if someone gets too close.


Ya, after looking at the options laid out by all, deft shootist looks to me as the best option. As we are starting at a higher lvl, it would be no problem having that feat stack. As for melee atts and such, was looking at having some monk lvls for some good old hand to hand, elbow, knee, leg shots to the face along with the pistol atts.

Thxs all for the good advice!!


Foeclan wrote:
I went the Deft Shootist route on my Gunslinger

I think that's hands-down the best option so far. Well done sir.

Dwarftr wrote:
As for melee atts and such, was looking at having some monk lvls for some good old hand to hand, elbow, knee, leg shots to the face along with the pistol atts.

If you're going Monk, may I suggest the FAR STRIKE MONK archetype?

You won't get flurry with unarmed attacks (or your firearms), and you won't get Stunning Fist, but you'll get Quick-Draw for free and the bonus feats are much more in-line with a gunslinger than the regular Monk bonus feats.

2 levels would net you 3 bonus feats (including Quick-Draw), WIS to AC, Evasion and +3 to all saves. The only major downside is that it can't be unchained, so you lose 1 BAB compared to a full BAB character (you could go more than 2 levels, but that's a lot more comparing I'd have to do).


MrCharisma wrote:
Heather 540 wrote:
If all else fails, there's always the good old 5-foot step back. You'll use your Swift Action for the turn, but it'll work as long as you're not flanked.
A 5-foot step isn't a swift action, it's a free action.

Technically it is part of a full round action, not free.


Dwarftr wrote:
As for melee atts and such, was looking at having some monk lvls for some good old hand to hand, elbow, knee, leg shots to the face along with the pistol atts.

This is rather hard to make work. Firearms take a lot of work (both ferats and gold) to be good, once you reach that point, you have very little reason to use anything else. Especially since you'd also need to invest in the melee option.

To be honest, I don't fully understand what you're trying to do here - you're looking for an option to use your pistol in melee, while at the same time you're heavily investing into unarmed strikes? The whole idea behind Deft Shootist is that you don't need a backup melee weapon, or the crappy Pistol-Whip deed. It would probably help if you'd explain your character concept more.

Meirril wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
Heather 540 wrote:
If all else fails, there's always the good old 5-foot step back. You'll use your Swift Action for the turn, but it'll work as long as you're not flanked.
A 5-foot step isn't a swift action, it's a free action.
Technically it is part of a full round action, not free.

A 5-foot step is "No Action" (CRB pg. 183), and it's not tied to any other action.


The OP seems happy with the choice and I think it's a decent one too. Doesnt need to explain much to us past that. No need to second guess yourself OP.


SorrySleeping wrote:

Is there anyway to grab Weapon Specialization without being a Fighter, or rather Point Blank Master without being a Ranger?

Iirc, there is a Druid(?) archetype that lets you pick up Ranger style feats.

Levels as Warpriest and Brawler count as levels in Fighter for the purpose of taking Feats such as Weapon Specialization. Warpriest is more limited for this.


Deft Shootist and empty quiver style allow to use a gun in melee without threatening, and use the gun as a melee weapon. What it does not do is allow for AoO... for that you need something else. Hence the lvls of monk for unarmed strike. Yes i know its not much compared to far more superior weapons and such but still needed if i plan on using just a firearm. Also as MrCharisma suggested, i was going with the Far Striker Monk archetype for a 2 lvl dip.

I have yet to decide where i will be going farther into the build, but what i was looking for mainly and foremost was the way to fire my weapon in melee without threatening, which the Deft Shootist was the perfect way.

Our parties have a tendency of being front line lite sometimes, so i always like to plan to have some survivablity up front and personal, even if its only a round or 3....


Dwarftr wrote:
Our parties have a tendency of being front line lite sometimes, so i always like to plan to have some survivablity up front and personal, even if its only a round or 3....

There are some parallels in my current Iron Gods game. Our only melee is a Magus. I really wanted to try out Gunslinger, but figured no one else could really take a hit, so I took the Gun Tank archetype. That gives you all the armor proficiencies, plus Armor Training at 4th level, which reduces ACP and increases the max Dex bonus for your armor.

I also took Warpriest, with the Forgepriest archetype since I wanted to make my own gear. The archetype added 'Shield' to my spell list (later I just got a magic buckler), which is a nice +4 AC boost. Divine Favor is always a good go-to spell for to hit/damage buffs. As a Warpriest, you can swift-cast them using Fervor, so no AoO or taking up your attack casting a buff.

At this point, we're 13th level. I took Gunslinger to 5th for the Dex to damage, and I'm at 8th as a Warpriest. I crafted my own Celestial Plate, which, with Armor Training, has a Max Dex of +7 (my dex is 22, so I'm not quite maxed out on AC there). My AC is 34 unbuffed. I can cast Ironskin to buff it another 4, Channel Vigor to give myself Haste for another +1. Defending Bone can give me DR on top of that. I can use Sacred Armor to add +2 to my armor's enhancement bonus (+1 for level, +1 for it being personally crafted). Even without buffing, it's rare that I take a hit. All while targeting touch AC, since they're generally up close, so it's hard for them to just ignore me.

I've kind of overdone it (my GM gets kinda frustrated), so you don't need to go that far, but there's a lot of room for defense there.

I don't actually threaten at this point. Snap Shot is something I'm considering so I can threaten with my pistol, but it hasn't been especially necessary. There are combo weapons, like the Axe Musket or Dagger Pistol, which would let you threaten up close. You just need to treat them as double weapons for enchanting purposes. I'm pretty happy being the literal tank that walks into the middle of the battlefield and starts blasting away, though.


Actually all you need to threaten is a Gauntlet. You won't deal much damage but it does allow you to flank for your buddies.

@Foeclan - Plate Armour always comes with Gauntlets, as per the description of the armour.


You could dip 3 levels of zen archer monk to get point blank shot with no prerequisites along with a bunch of other free feats and wis to AC when unarmoured (and with your dex focus that eventually will be better than most any armour, especially with bracers of armour)

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