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The evasion power for Keen Spiked Chain (Crimson Throne level 5) reads:
If proficient and you fail this check against a non-villain monster, you may evade it.
As written, this lets you evade the monster without needing to do anything else. So fail = auto-evade with no consequences. Should the chain need to be discarded, at least?
I always thought "failing the check" included the consequences of that aka the Combat damage. I can't prove it off the top of my head though so I could be wrong about that.
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I always thought "failing the check" included the consequences of that aka the Combat damage. I can't prove it off the top of my head though so I could be wrong about that.
That's not the case. As a source, see this thread discussing Class Deck Oloch, who has an identical power.
Or rather, more specifically, he was FAQed to have an identical power to Spiked Chain, because as-written he functioned differently. Which conveniently confirms that evading on leaving something undefeated still causes you to take damage (as per the steps of the encounter), but evading on failing a check to defeat skips the damage entirely.
As for the original question; I do feel like it should be discarded, yeah. It seems too oddly powerful that you literally can't suffer damage (besides BA damage) from non-villain monsters by using that weapon, without even needing to spend a card.
As for the original question; I do feel like it should be discarded...
Me too, for what it's worth.
Stay safe all of you.
I do feel like it should be discarded, yeah. It seems too oddly powerful that you literally can't suffer damage
I can't speak to intent, of course, but discard seems a bit too steep of a cost to me, if there's supposed to be a cost. My arguments:
- this is a LEVEL FIVE weapon!
- post-Core, weapons were mostly nerfed across the board; to compensate, many of them were given cheaper "boost" cost, like recharge or reload
- many of the boosts were constricted ONLY to Proficient characters (while dropping the penalty for non-Proficients)
- the evade in question DOES require Proficiency - so it's already unusable to a lot of characters (*including* the Iconic Monk Sajan himself, who should be the one wanting this weapon, which is... WTF?!??!)
- the evade is *furthermore* restricted to non-Villains only, which significantly devalues it
- mid-encounter evade *in general* has been (I feel) nerfed when seen in conjunction with both the steeper monster BYA effects and the new Avenge mechanic. Many a time, it seems preferable to just take it on the chin and have a battle-ready mate avenge and kill the monster, than letting it shuffle away randomly (this is subjective and obviously depends on available damage-negation, but it has been my experience)
Bottomline, the power-cost and the given restrictions don't seem all that good for a Level 5 weapon, IMHO.
For the sake of discussion, I'd like to respond to some of Longshots points.
- post-Core, weapons were mostly nerfed across the board; to compensate, many of them were given cheaper "boost" cost, like recharge or reload
I'm not sure I agree that weapons were mostly nerfed. It probably has to do with which former base set (or Class Deck) you compare to, but I'd say that post-Core weapons are way better on average.
Post-Core weapons consistently have far more or better secondary effects. All 'combat support' effects from any bow or dagger is way, way better than it was before, plus weapons being able to ignore After-Acting, bolster checks against barriers, examine locations, etc.
The average combat results vary somewhat, but even then it seems like the average combat results of post-Core weapons are higher than pre-Core, especially any elemental one (compare Flaming Mace or Frost Longbow post-Core to pre-Core cards). In the high levels, this is even more exaggerated; there's few pre-Core weapons at all, from any set, that can compare to Shocking Sawtooth Sabre, Dancing Dagger or Fury's Trident. At least, once you discount the outlier of Wrath of the Righteous.
With all of that said, I'm also of the opinion that the pre-Core weapons that allowed for 'evade on failure' were generally a bit too strong, for various reasons. Though they were usually a lot lower-level than level 5, admittedly.
- the evade in question DOES require Proficiency - so it's already unusable to a lot of characters (*including* the Iconic Monk Sajan himself, who should be the one wanting this weapon, which is... WTF?!??!)
I mean, this is a post-role weapon, and one of Sajan's 2 roles is themed around a weapons focus, and features giving him proficiency with melee/ranged weapons. Furthermore, generally Sajan has 3 possible roles if you're using the Curse of the Crimson Throne box which this boon is from (because there's also the Blackjack Role that comes with the corresponding AP), so actually 2/3 Sajan roles could be proficient with this weapon.
With that said, I agree it's a very relevant restriction on the weapon, because it means characters with few weapon slots and little skill at using them (like Ezren) can't take it for the 'free evade'.
- the evade is *furthermore* restricted to non-Villains only, which significantly devalues it
Definetly de-values it, and villains are indeed one of the most important cards to evade... but I think the word 'significantly' is misleading. In scenarios that include a villain (which is far less scenarios than pre-Core) there's almost only one villain per scenario. The likelihood that you're playing a scenario that includes a villain, that you specifically (of all party members) encounter the villain, that you have this specific weapon in hand and you can't consistently defeat the villain (and wish to do so) anyway is, when taken all-together, a pretty rare thing.
Maybe not 'rare', but even if it worked against villains I doubt it'd come up more than once or twice an adventure, at most, unless you're an extremely exploration-heavy character. I wouldn't call that a significant restriction, as a result.
- mid-encounter evade *in general* has been (I feel) nerfed when seen in conjunction with both the steeper monster BYA effects and the new Avenge mechanic. Many a time, it seems preferable to just take it on the chin and have a battle-ready mate avenge and kill the monster, than letting it shuffle away randomly (this is subjective and obviously depends on available damage-negation, but it has been my experience)
Agreed in the sense that BA's are more common and vicious than ever, and agreed about Avenging, but disagreed in the sense that summoned monsters (notably dangers) are also more common than ever (except perhaps when compared to WotR), especially from barriers. The prevalence of summoned encounters increases the value of evasion in all of its forms.
Re-looking at the weapon in question, it is absolutely a lot lower in combat-capability than other Curse 5/6 weapons, so there's definitely an opportunity cost by filling a weapon slot with this over something else.
...However, I still feel the cost should at least be a reload to evade, because it still trivially lets you ignore almost every summoned danger/monster without even spending a card from your hand, as many times back-to-back as they turn up, whilst having other benefits and uses.
In part, I feel that way because this is the kind of boon that seems to make a character from the same set feel weak by comparison; Core Merisiel's evasion power (no matter how many power feats you spend on it) is rather restrictive in many ways, whilst any weapon-proficient character can just hold onto this and evade monsters with a simple reveal all day long, whilst also getting the chance to actually defeat them in combat in a risk-free environment if they want.