Removing a power from a stacked magic item?


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Is it possible (e.g., by a magic item crafter, or otherwise) to remove a power from a magic item?

For example, my barbarian wants to buy a +6 STR, +6 DEX, Cord of Stubborn Resolve. At L17, when he gets Tireless Rage, he would want to remove the cord of stubborn resolve power because it is driving up the cost of other powers and becomes 22,500 gp of dead-weight. Some math is shown below, but it is not really necessary to the question - which is can a power be removed (and if yes, does removing the power yield any gold back)?

Belt Before L17
36,000 gp STR +6
54,000 gp DEX +6 (36,000 gp x 50% for stacking powers)
22,500 gp Cord of Stubborn Resolve (15,000 gp x 50% for stacking powers
Total: 112,500 gp

L17 Belt with Cord of Stubborn Resolve Removed:
36,000 STR+6
54,000 DEX+6
54,000 CON+6
Total: 144,000 gp

L17 Belt with Cord of Stubborn Resolve Preserved:
36,000 STR+6
54,000 DEX+6
54,000 CON+6
22,500 gp Cord of Stubborn Resolve
Total: 166,500 gp


It doesn't drive up the cost of other powers the way you're using it, but it is dead weight.

& sorry there's no return of money from unenchanting items in this edition. D&D 3.5 had the artificer class which got XP costs back to their reserve, D&D 4 returned some money for anyone, but PF didn't follow suit.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

AFAIK there is no way to do it, but even if it was possible, what is the advantage?
The cost of adding a +6 enhancement to constitution doesn't change and you don't get any money back even if the enchantment was removed.
The only difference is that you would have a bit less WBL, but a 5% difference is well within the normal range of variations. Even having used a bit more or fewer potions at this point can result in that kind of difference.

Dark Archive

if someone has the Craft wonderous item feat, they can destroy the item, getting 2/3 the gold value back as materials(instead of selling for half) to remake a belt of +stats .

scroll to salvaging

A successful Craft or Spellcraft check with a DC equal to 10 + the item’s caster level yields raw materials worth two-thirds the creation cost of the destroyed item (one-third the market price). If you fail the skill check by 4 or less, the item is destroyed but the materials can still be salvaged in a future attempt. If you fail the skill check by 5 or more, the item is destroyed and the materials are ruined. Salvaged raw materials can be used to create or repair any item made of similar materials or that shares any of the creation requirements as the original. Including the majority of the materials allows you to automatically meet any construction requirements of a new item that the salvaged item also required and reduces the construction or repair time by the proportion of the new item’s construction materials that are salvaged (with the usual minimum creation time)


Even with the salvage rules it will cost you more to have it done. You have to totally destroy the original belt and use the raw material to craft a new belt. This mean you pay full cost for new belt. Destroying the original belt will mean that 37,500 gold can be salvaged. The new belt will cost 144,000 gold. That means that the cost of the new belt after salvage is 106,500 gold. So you end up paying an 52,500 more gold than simply having the CON added to the existing belt. This does not even take into account that your barbarian probably does not have the skill required to salvage the belt. That mean that you will have to pay someone to do it, which would further reduce the amount you can get back from the original belt. In all probability the person who actually salvages the item will probably give you half credit for salvaging the belt. Even if you sold the original belt and bought a belt of physical perfection it is still going to cost more than adding to your existing belt.

So basically just eat the 54,000 gold and upgrade the belt.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Name Violation wrote:

if someone has the Craft wonderous item feat, they can destroy the item, getting 2/3 the gold value back as materials(instead of selling for half) to remake a belt of +stats .

scroll to salvaging

A successful Craft or Spellcraft check with a DC equal to 10 + the item’s caster level yields raw materials worth two-thirds the creation cost of the destroyed item (one-third the market price). If you fail the skill check by 4 or less, the item is destroyed but the materials can still be salvaged in a future attempt. If you fail the skill check by 5 or more, the item is destroyed and the materials are ruined. Salvaged raw materials can be used to create or repair any item made of similar materials or that shares any of the creation requirements as the original. Including the majority of the materials allows you to automatically meet any construction requirements of a new item that the salvaged item also required and reduces the construction or repair time by the proportion of the new item’s construction materials that are salvaged (with the usual minimum creation time)

You get 1/3 of the market price, which is the same as 2/3 of the crafting cost. Less than selling (1/2 of the market price, i.e. exactly the crafting cost).


Yeah, salvaging isn't a useful trick to save money, it's what you might do when you're a thousand miles from civilization and you have to have a new item, or otherwise not able to go to town and trade.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
avr wrote:
Yeah, salvaging isn't a useful trick to save money, it's what you might do when you're a thousand miles from civilization and you have to have a new item, or otherwise not able to go to town and trade.

Well, it would have been useful to my players in the AP I am running. The market will not buy ogre hooks at half price as there are very few medium sized humanoids interested in them. Same thing for giant sized weapons.

Dismantling them to make the characters weapons would have given them a larger share of the value of the items (not much, most of them where sold at 1/4 price). It all depends on the kind of loot you find and how the GM uses the market. I try to keep some consistency with reality, so there isn't an unlimited market for some stuff, while other items are worth way more than they are valued in the adventures, if you spend the time to find the right buyer.
A 10,000 years old library worth 5,000 gp? LOL, there are people that will pay that sum for a single book or even for a single page. But they are not the bookseller of a small town.


Diego Rossi wrote:
avr wrote:
Yeah, salvaging isn't a useful trick to save money, it's what you might do when you're a thousand miles from civilization and you have to have a new item, or otherwise not able to go to town and trade.

Well, it would have been useful to my players in the AP I am running. The market will not buy ogre hooks at half price as there are very few medium sized humanoids interested in them. Same thing for giant sized weapons.

That's why adventurers should quickly make friends with a crafter of magic items... those will buy anything at half price so they can salvage it and already turn a profit before even making their purchase into a new useful item (that they will then sell to the same or different adventurers at even better profit)


Lady Asharah wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
avr wrote:
Yeah, salvaging isn't a useful trick to save money, it's what you might do when you're a thousand miles from civilization and you have to have a new item, or otherwise not able to go to town and trade.

Well, it would have been useful to my players in the AP I am running. The market will not buy ogre hooks at half price as there are very few medium sized humanoids interested in them. Same thing for giant sized weapons.

That's why adventurers should quickly make friends with a crafter of magic items... those will buy anything at half price so they can salvage it and already turn a profit before even making their purchase into a new useful item (that they will then sell to the same or different adventurers at even better profit)

If you buy magic items at half price in order to salvage one third their value then you're losing money. Diego's weird magic items which would sell for even less than one third aren't IME the most common.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
avr wrote:
Lady Asharah wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
avr wrote:
Yeah, salvaging isn't a useful trick to save money, it's what you might do when you're a thousand miles from civilization and you have to have a new item, or otherwise not able to go to town and trade.

Well, it would have been useful to my players in the AP I am running. The market will not buy ogre hooks at half price as there are very few medium sized humanoids interested in them. Same thing for giant sized weapons.

That's why adventurers should quickly make friends with a crafter of magic items... those will buy anything at half price so they can salvage it and already turn a profit before even making their purchase into a new useful item (that they will then sell to the same or different adventurers at even better profit)
If you buy magic items at half price in order to salvage one third their value then you're losing money. Diego's weird magic items which would sell for even less than one third aren't IME the most common.

Sadly the Ogre hooks are abundant loot in at least two AP. And giant-sized magical weapons are about as common. Personally I find that putting an artifact level item with the ability to remake them in one of those wasn't a great idea. Too much of a "we have created this problem, here is the gizmo to resolve it" for my tastes.

I would prefer a simple note on the tune of "the giant-sized weapons will sell for a fraction of the normal price, but we have increased other treasure to compensate".


Just buy a belt of of physical perfection and live with the exhausted/fatigued condition in game, it's never been a major drawback in any game I've played

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
TxSam88 wrote:
Just buy a belt of of physical perfection and live with the exhausted/fatigued condition in game, it's never been a major drawback in any game I've played

I suppose he want to rage cicle, using abilities that works "once per rage" every turn.


Diego Rossi wrote:
avr wrote:
Yeah, salvaging isn't a useful trick to save money, it's what you might do when you're a thousand miles from civilization and you have to have a new item, or otherwise not able to go to town and trade.

Well, it would have been useful to my players in the AP I am running. The market will not buy ogre hooks at half price as there are very few medium sized humanoids interested in them. Same thing for giant sized weapons.

Dismantling them to make the characters weapons would have given them a larger share of the value of the items (not much, most of them where sold at 1/4 price). It all depends on the kind of loot you find and how the GM uses the market. I try to keep some consistency with reality, so there isn't an unlimited market for some stuff, while other items are worth way more than they are valued in the adventures, if you spend the time to find the right buyer.
A 10,000 years old library worth 5,000 gp? LOL, there are people that will pay that sum for a single book or even for a single page. But they are not the bookseller of a small town.

I think Diego is confusing people with his 1/4 market price on large magic weapons. A few people are taking it like that is a standard rule, while I'm sure it is a house rule enforced at Diego's table.

Right?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Meirril wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
avr wrote:
Yeah, salvaging isn't a useful trick to save money, it's what you might do when you're a thousand miles from civilization and you have to have a new item, or otherwise not able to go to town and trade.

Well, it would have been useful to my players in the AP I am running. The market will not buy ogre hooks at half price as there are very few medium sized humanoids interested in them. Same thing for giant sized weapons.

Dismantling them to make the characters weapons would have given them a larger share of the value of the items (not much, most of them where sold at 1/4 price). It all depends on the kind of loot you find and how the GM uses the market. I try to keep some consistency with reality, so there isn't an unlimited market for some stuff, while other items are worth way more than they are valued in the adventures, if you spend the time to find the right buyer.
A 10,000 years old library worth 5,000 gp? LOL, there are people that will pay that sum for a single book or even for a single page. But they are not the bookseller of a small town.

I think Diego is confusing people with his 1/4 market price on large magic weapons. A few people are taking it like that is a standard rule, while I'm sure it is a house rule enforced at Diego's table.

Right?

Absolutely.

As I said: "It all depends on the kind of loot you find and how the GM uses the market. I try to keep some consistency with reality, so there isn't an unlimited market for some stuff, while other items are worth way more than they are valued in the adventures, if you spend the time to find the right buyer."

An Ogre hook is a two-handed martial weapon, so it is useful only for large or larger creatures or some specifi archetype.
Even if you find some teens of masterwork Ogre hooks and several magical ones, most buyers will have no use for them, so RAW notwithstanding, when I am the GM the players have a hard time selling them.

To make an example, you think that if you were to sell a bridge laying tank to a used car salesman you would get something even close to its real price?
As it is a peculiar piece of equipment, with a limited market, he will pay a cent to the dollar for it.


Diego Rossi wrote:
TxSam88 wrote:
Just buy a belt of of physical perfection and live with the exhausted/fatigued condition in game, it's never been a major drawback in any game I've played
I suppose he want to rage cicle, using abilities that works "once per rage" every turn.

yeah, I've never seen much point in that either. most combat don't last 3--4 rounds


Name Violation wrote:

if someone has the Craft wonderous item feat, they can destroy the item, getting 2/3 the gold value back as materials(instead of selling for half) to remake a belt of +stats .

scroll to salvaging

A successful Craft or Spellcraft check with a DC equal to 10 + the item’s caster level yields raw materials worth two-thirds the creation cost of the destroyed item (one-third the market price). If you fail the skill check by 4 or less, the item is destroyed but the materials can still be salvaged in a future attempt. If you fail the skill check by 5 or more, the item is destroyed and the materials are ruined. Salvaged raw materials can be used to create or repair any item made of similar materials or that shares any of the creation requirements as the original. Including the majority of the materials allows you to automatically meet any construction requirements of a new item that the salvaged item also required and reduces the construction or repair time by the proportion of the new item’s construction materials that are salvaged (with the usual minimum creation time)

You misunderstand the skill. Salvaging a +2 Belt nets you 0 gp since there is no material component to salvage. Salvaging a +1 Dagger nets you 2/3 of 302 gp not 2/3 of 2302. Salvaging a scroll with a 100 gp material component only nets you 2/3 of 100 gp.

RAI, it maybe should have been to recover 2/3 of the magic cost, but RAW it does not.

/cevah


Quote:
yields raw materials worth two-thirds the creation cost of the destroyed item

The creation cost of a +2 belt of incredible dexterity is 2,000 gp. Salvaging it gets you ~1,333 gp. I'm not sure how you arrived at zero.


OK. The lines of text in question are:

Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp.
Quote:
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs.
Quote:
Armor, shields, weapons, and items with value independent of their magically enhanced properties add their item cost to the market price.

To me "Magic Supplies" and "Components" do not come across as "Raw Materials". I agree RAI it makes more sense to count these.

I am not wedded to what I said was RAW, and as a GM would play it as I said was RAI.

EDIT: Consider the manufacture of a nice table. Cut and shape a bunch of wood, use glue to assemble. Apply stain and varnish. Now recycle it. You get wood. You don't get glue, stain, or varnish. Therefore the raw material is just wood. I see the "magic supplies" as glue, stain, and varnish.

/cevah

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