15 points works very well for us.
The only time I, or anyone I know who games, use point buy is when we are forced to, like when making a character for Pathfinder Society play, otherwise stats have always been rolled.
That depends on the feel of the campaign.
In our current main campaign, which should reach lvl 25 in the end (with some self made epic levels for pathfinder) we use 25 point buys (together with 3 traits per character, maximized 1st HD and Con-Score instead of Con-Bonus as Bonus hitpoints for the 1st level). In the same campaign we have some additional character doing side quests and stuff that ties into the whole campaign which use 20 point buys (and the standard 2 traits) which will probably only be played until around level 16.
If we play a campaign which is not meant to change the face of the game world we also use the standard 15 point buy and the usual rules for bonus hitpoints.
But the same rules also apply to NPCs, so you can have NPCs with point buys from 5 up to 35 (which is reserved for the case if the DM ever needs a Demi-God or something similar) and they use the same rules for traits and bonus hit points (as well as other stuff) as the player characters.
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I suppose I'm "old-school" in this regard, but my group is still doing the Standard rolling procedure for stats. It has always worked very well for us, and we have a house rule in place to avoid overall stats being too high or too low.
However, I do use point buys when creating character builds. Generally I use 20-point buy. It's not so high to be cheap, and its not too low to be generally useless. I think its a very good number. And since we use the standard rolling system, a 20-point buy emulates a dice roll well if I ever try to create those characters in a game.
I have never attended a Pathfinder Society, but I suppose I would use a point buy in that too. What point buy does Pathfinder Society use?
We use 22 points, yeah its in between the two, but its what we like. For us 25 points gets you just a bit too much, but 20 points is just a bit low. As my group varies in how much background they like to put into their characters, a well developed background with a few page story about the background will net and extra point to spend. We also like 3 traits.
My heroic campaign is 20 points and medium progression. My gritty one is fast progression and 15 points
I suppose that leads the way for slow progression and 25 points.
Batts
25 point buy, with maxed hit points; our GM likes running epic campaigns where the PC's are truly heroic.
I tend to use a 25 point buy when GMing because I run my players through the ringer regularly.
As a player I like the 20 point buy, but I can live with the 15.
I typically play 15 points. It just feels like you don't have to make any sacrifices for higher point buys. I like when characters *can't* do everything themselves and need to rely on each other to get the job done.
We play 25 point buy.
We used to roll for stats but we stopped because one of our players is very lucky. He has more than once rolled three 18s on a character, so instead of dealing with that we just buy stats. Everyone seems to like that better anyways.
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20-point buy works for us. Can expect to see players with a pair of 16s at 1st level, and that's plenty powerful.
I'd consider 15, but I don't hold punches with my encounters and play the baddies to the hilt.
Used to roll in 2nd edition, but really unbalanced to have someone with "uber" stats and someone without nowadays.
I'm currently using 17 and it's been working well. The campaign is a bit "gritty" but I've never felt the need to pull any punches against the party, typically running encounter CRs one or two above the party level and three above for "bosses."
-Brooks
20 point buy has become the standard for my group, i miss rolling but it looks like it wont happen in the forseable future for our group.
In Council of Thieves, where there are just three of us players, we use 20. In all others, 15. Before we started playing Pathfinder, we rolled stats.
I have never attended a Pathfinder Society, but I suppose I would use a point buy in that too. What point buy does Pathfinder Society use?
Pathfinder Society requires all characters to be made using the point-buy system from the Core Rulebook and it uses the 20 point setup.
I let my players roll stats, or they can use the point build, with 20 points. I felt that 15 was just too low. In general they like the chances for higher scores by rolling anyways.
I've been using 20, but thinking of taking it down to 15 in the next game I GM (of course, this will probably make my power gamers whine).
I love the idea of point buy, but I hate the execution (the stat weighting, specifically - every increase should cost the same, considering it has the same effect on modifiers and whatnot). So either roll for stats, or if I'm DMing and want to have a bit more control over the power level, I use a straight point buy with the number of points dependent on what I want said power level to be.
For the Kingmaker campaign I have starting in September we are using the 20 point buy. Any lower and my players would have killed me.
25 point buy in one campaign, 18 in LoF
I love the idea of point buy, but I hate the execution (the stat weighting, specifically - every increase should cost the same, considering it has the same effect on modifiers and whatnot). So either roll for stats, or if I'm DMing and want to have a bit more control over the power level, I use a straight point buy with the number of points dependent on what I want said power level to be.
The stat weighting is to try to get attributes to 'fit' the distribution of 4d6 drop the low, where an 18 is a 1-in-~160 chance.
That said, I more or less agree with you - I've been tempted to do my next 'random allocation' by making players assign a 14 to one stat, a 12 to a second stat, designate a dump stat, and roll 17 d6s labeled with the 6 attributes. Each D6 allocates a point buy point.
Anything that comes up with their dump stat, they can assign to the state of their choice. If they come up with a point buy that doesn't 'match' a point threshold (say 4 points in a stat), they can cannibalize a point from their dump stat.
I love the idea of point buy, but I hate the execution (the stat weighting, specifically - every increase should cost the same, considering it has the same effect on modifiers and whatnot). So either roll for stats, or if I'm DMing and want to have a bit more control over the power level, I use a straight point buy with the number of points dependent on what I want said power level to be.The stat weighting is to try to get attributes to 'fit' the distribution of 4d6 drop the low, where an 18 is a 1-in-~160 chance.
That said, I more or less agree with you - I've been tempted to do my next 'random allocation' by making players assign a 14 to one stat, a 12 to a second stat, designate a dump stat, and roll 17 d6s labeled with the 6 attributes. Each D6 allocates a point buy point.
Anything that comes up with their dump stat, they can assign to the state of their choice. If they come up with a point buy that doesn't 'match' a point threshold (say 4 points in a stat), they can cannibalize a point from their dump stat.
Right, but the entire idea of point buy is to take randomness out, so random distribution should be out too.
We are playing Kingmaker (and loving it). We are using the 15 point buy, no attributes can be bought below 10. We are enjoying it and playing the game very by the book as our pathfinder play test. Our group is a Paladin, Cleric, Witch, and Bard.
Normally we play 4d6 drop the lowest, in order, may swap two attributes once. We really do not like the min/maxed games where all thieves and clerics look the same. But we are enjoying kingmaker, but it will be the last time we use the point buy. And the last time we make magic items as available as pathfinder. We prefer magic item light games.
I haven't rolled for stats in many years.
The main problem my previous groups had was that of sheer luck (good or bad) and cheating. In a decent sized group, it was inevitable that someone would end up with really bad stats while someone lucked out (or cheated) really good ones.
Of course, there are ways to get around this.... 4D6, take away the lowest, reroll 1s, etc.
But if the aim was to just create characters with comparable attribute spreads, why even roll at all? Just use point buy.
Then, again, there is the cheater. Sure, you can get everyone to roll their stats in front of the GM.... but then suddenly EVERYONE rolls horribly for some strange reason (sarcasm here, folks).
Again... solution is point buy.
However, my current group has NEVER used the official point buy method in 3.0, 3.5, or even Pathfinder.
Why? Because most of us feel it is far too punitive on higher attributes... so you either get a generalist (to maximize points spent) or a specialist with a crap-ton of dump stats.
This isn't 2nd edition, where the attribute bonuses increased exponentially the higher the attribute became (18/00 Strength anyone??).
So we just settle on a flat number and allow you to allocate the points however you wish.
The amount of points varies depending on the theme of the campaign, but as a rule we only allow a maximum of two 18s even in a very high powered game.
Lately though, we've been settling on 86 points.
Base 10 in each stat = 60
Which leaves 26 points to spread around as needed.
Yes it gives some great stats, but we haven't found there to be a huge difference in power level between a 16 and an 18 in something. +/- 1 attribute modifier isn't THAT much to write home about.
As well, it also gives players a few extra points to put into stats that would otherwise ALWAYS be dump stats (regardless of character concept). Yes, this means we have had a Paladin or two with an Intelligence HIGHER than 8!!! *GASP*
I haven't rolled for stats in many years.
The main problem my previous groups had was that of sheer luck (good or bad) and cheating. In a decent sized group, it was inevitable that someone would end up with really bad stats while someone lucked out (or cheated) really good ones.Of course, there are ways to get around this.... 4D6, take away the lowest, reroll 1s, etc.
But if the aim was to just create characters with comparable attribute spreads, why even roll at all? Just use point buy.Then, again, there is the cheater. Sure, you can get everyone to roll their stats in front of the GM.... but then suddenly EVERYONE rolls horribly for some strange reason (sarcasm here, folks).
Again... solution is point buy.However, my current group has NEVER used the official point buy method in 3.0, 3.5, or even Pathfinder.
Why? Because most of us feel it is far too punitive on higher attributes... so you either get a generalist (to maximize points spent) or a specialist with a crap-ton of dump stats.This isn't 2nd edition, where the attribute bonuses increased exponentially the higher the attribute became (18/00 Strength anyone??).
So we just settle on a flat number and allow you to allocate the points however you wish.
The amount of points varies depending on the theme of the campaign, but as a rule we only allow a maximum of two 18s even in a very high powered game.Lately though, we've been settling on 86 points.
Base 10 in each stat = 60
Which leaves 26 points to spread around as needed.Yes it gives some great stats, but we haven't found there to be a huge difference in power level between a 16 and an 18 in something. +/- 1 attribute modifier isn't THAT much to write home about.
As well, it also gives players a few extra points to put into stats that would otherwise ALWAYS be dump stats (regardless of character concept). Yes, this means we have had a Paladin or two with an Intelligence HIGHER than 8!!! *GASP*
That's exactly how point buy should be. Now if only we can convince the designers to stick that into an errata... ^_-
I kind of like rolling the dice myself just because it's rather handy in defining your character. If you don’t know what you want to play when you sit down, your ability rolls often make that decision for you. I like that randomness. But then I like lower powered games in general and have never really had the desire to create powerhouses.
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Running Second Darkness with 25 point buy. Given that it is a 3.5 adventure, that has been partially converted, and we have 5 players, it has been a particular challenge to make things challenging. Most foes these days (heading into the last module) at minimum have the advanced template, if not racial HD and class levels.
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We use 30 point buy without being able to drop your stats below 10 to get more points. Lets examine this by comparing 2 human wizards:
Human Wizard 15 Point Buy: Str 7, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 7, Cha 7
Human Wizard 30 Point Buy: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 10
Almost the exact same thing for the "important" stats of the class, only exception is character number 2 isnt a weak, naive, social pariah. Though this approach is about min/maxing, my take on a character would probably something like:
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 13
Then again, I like well rounded stats and characters.
Gambit, I think you have it right. That is one of the main reasons that my group uses our own house-ruled point buy system.
We want well-rounded characters.
HUGE pet peeve of mine.... I LOVE LOVE LOVE Paladins, but even with the improvements in Pathfinder, they are still fairly Multiple Attribute Dependent.
You are a frontline fighter, so ideally you want high Strength and Con. Dexterity helps out in the usual ways as well.
Then of course there is Charisma... the higher, the better.... both mechanically and concept-wise.
Wisdom should be half decent as well, even if it's not strictly required for spellcasting anymore.
So what does that leave you? Crap all for Intelligence.
Which means every single Paladin I have EVER seen played using point-buy has been a complete dumb-arse. It's a wonder people complain about Paladin's being Lawful 'Stupid'... they are just being played according to their stats! lol
Even with our groups point system, my ideal using 86 points is thus...
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 16
Wis 14
Int 10
Cha 18 (20 with racial kicker)
Even with that many points I still can't sacrifice much for a higher intelligence, though I've seen other players do it. But I prefer to have some standing power and weight behind my hits. *shrug*
As for higher point buys making "powerhouses", I don't believe that's really the case at all. As Gambit pointed out... if someone wants to min/max to get their primary attribute to max, they will. More points just means a more well rounded character.
And let's be honest folks... 1 or even 2 attribute mods worth of difference does NOT make a powerhouse in 3.0/3.5/PR. The BUILD is what does it.
I could play a fighter with a starting Str of 20, and you could play one with 16 Str using 15 point buy... and guess what?
If your character build was better, you would still kick my arse and dominate the gameplay at the table.
IMHO (and take it for what it is, but it works for my group).... more points just means more options.
Within limits of course... 18 in every attribute is just rediculous ;P
I prefer rolling dice....at the table in front of the GM though.
For those who want to do a point buy....
If your group is full of min/maxers, i'd use 15 point buy since these players tend to blow through normal AP's, if they forgo optimal builds and RP and fun then 20 is a good number. 25 can be a bit high but if the group is a bit underpowered it can help or for very inexperienced players, a extra bonus to help them survive long enough to learn.
edit: to the point above about paladins, dex is not needed if your using heavy armor. A dex of 10 is fine for plate wearers. And if you had more wisdom and less str or con you'd be a cleric. You have 2 main stats STR/CON and cha would be a close 3rd. Thats tough, having 3 stats like that, but I think we get focused on having every wizard start with an int of at least 18 and a cleric has to ahve at elats an 18 wis to start, but thats not true.
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For years I used point buy because it creates PCs who are all on par with each other, as I've seen parties with 1 character at all 18s (the bastard) and one with total modifiers of +4.
Recently, however, I decided to let the luck of the dice come back but in an altered fasion. Everybody rols 4d6, drop lowest. Once all the stats are rolled, they have the option of selecting the stats of the person who rolled the best as their stats as well. That way, when the one player with the Devil's Own Luck rolls all 18s, everybody has all 18s. That way I don't have to worry about instances where making an encounter challenging for one character means its deadly for another.
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My group uses 28 in 3.5 and 20 in PF. It's perfect, IMHO, for creating characters who could be action movie heroes, but not quite demigods, "The Chosen One", or Exalted PCs. The one time I did allow 32 (in 3.5, it would have been 25 in PF, I think) the characters easily shot right up to the top of the food chain. All of the PCs from that game now rule their own little corners of the world.
My group would kill me if I used rolling for anything other than a one-shot, or a Call of Cthulhu game (which are usually one-shots, anyway). People often come to the table with specific character concepts and backstories in mind already, if someone completely fell in love with an idea that they had last night, and then rolled too high or low to support it, there would be a lot of teeth-gnashing.
Then again, most of my players got their start on White Wolf games, so when they play PF they would prefer pointy-eared, spell-slinging psychodramas to treasure hunts or a sense of danger/adventure.
In the game I am starting at home, 25 point.
In the various other games I am in, one is 25 point-buy, another is 20 point buy, the other three use a variety of rolling methods.
I like 20 point buy both as a player and as a DM. It's the goldy locks point buy, just right. I am running fast advancement, and my players generally level once every 2-3 weeks/5 combats. I do hand out "extra" xp for just showing up and for good roleplaying, so I don't feel the need to shoehorn in a combat if there wouldn't logically be a combat in that week's agenda but the players still feel like they are progressing.
I also reward players for good roleplaying or strategy with traits or other things. For example I had an orc fighter that would decapitate creatures or skin them and keep them as trophies/sell their skins so I gave him the Anatomist trait.