Heighten Spell question


Rules Questions


Does a 1st-level spell heightened to 2nd level count as a 2nd-level spell for all intents and purposes, such as qulifying for a prestige class requiring you to be able to cast 2nd-level spells?

More specifically, if you're a 5th-level Wizard with the faith magic discovery and the heighten spell feat, can you heighten your faith magic spell (which is a 1st-level divine spell using up a 2nd-level spell slot) to be a 2nd-level divine spell using up a 3rd-level spell slot and then qualify for Mystic Theurge, because you are able to cast one or more 2nd-level divine spells?

IMHO it boils down to the question, if mechanically, a heightened 1st-level spell is identical to a 2nd-level spell, for all intents and purposes. There once was a lengthy FAQ on this, but it did not really answer my question.


Shameless self-bump


Shameless self-bump #2.
I would really like to hear some opinions on this.


For anyone else looking here's faith magic's description.

Faith Magic (Magic Tactics Toolbox pg. 3) wrote:
Select one spell granted by a domain belonging to the god you worship. This spell must be at least 2 levels lower than the highest-level wizard spell you can cast. When you first prepare your spells for the day, you can prepare this spell once, using a spell slot 1 level higher than the spell’s actual level. This is cast as a divine spell.

Yes, a 1st level spell heightened to 2nd level is a 2nd level spell for the purpose of prereqs. As to whether you could apply a metamagic feat to a faith magic spell - this looks less clear. The description doesn't look totally compatible with metamagic use. If you can it works if not it doesn't.

I think I'd allow it as a GM providing it wasn't heightened to greater than '2 levels lower than the highest-level wizard spell you can cast'. i.e. you'd need to be a 7th level wizard, and to get full benefit out of mystic theurge you'd need a level in a divine spellcasting class as well.


Opinion? It doesn't work. Paizo generally made early-entry shenanigans illegal. I don't have any rules sources to back this up, but my thought is that if you go down this rabbit hole you'll be disappointed.

Also, even if it's technically legal it wouldn't be unreasonable for a GM to bam this option.


Well, technically it is not an early entry option. You still have to take 5 levels in Wizard and 1 level in any divine caster class that you want to progress through MT.

So you still gain MT access after 6 levels, like before, just that those levels are distributed in another way. And this way (5/1) would be a lot more appealing for Wizards since it only costs you 1 level of spellcasting as opposed to 3.

Of course you can also entry at Wizard 7 /divine 1 (referring to what avr said), but most APs only go up to level 17 and it would be a shame if you could not use your awesome capstone in the final boss fight.

I already made a thread (i think it was on the pathfinder_rpg subreddit) a while back about the 7/1 entry and the general consensus was, that it should work by RAW.
I just now noticed the possibility of making 5/1 a viable option and wanted to ask about this.


I would have to say no. In your class ability to cast spells, it is a 1st level spell. I think that is what counts.

If you go with the logic that the spells prepared matter, then you'd lose the requisites for the prestige class if you ever cast all of your divine spells over 1st level. Especially considering the FAQ that says you can't use benefits from the prestige class to meet the requisites.


I lack the time to look up a proper source, but if memory serves it was either the FAQ or a ask James Jacobs thread post where he stated that only if the class itself gains the class ability without any external modification (archetypes are an exception) do you qualify as having such an ability. Because you have to modify a spell with a feat, it does not work because you are not able to actually cast second level divine spells. Again, the answer is out there and I am 99% sure it is one of the two places I mentioned.


Thedmstrikes wrote:
I lack the time to look up a proper source, but if memory serves it was either the FAQ or a ask James Jacobs thread post where he stated that only if the class itself gains the class ability without any external modification (archetypes are an exception) do you qualify as having such an ability. Because you have to modify a spell with a feat, it does not work because you are not able to actually cast second level divine spells. Again, the answer is out there and I am 99% sure it is one of the two places I mentioned.

That would still let you entry MT at Wiz 7 / divine 1, right? Because at Wizard 7 you would be able to cast a 2nd-level divine spell from your discovery alone, not modified by any feat.


Sounds like it.


I'd say the problem is that prepared spells have metamagic applied to them WHEN they are prepared. So you would actually be preparing a 2nd level divine spell, which would require a 3rd level slot and therefore gains you nothing. If this were a spontaneous caster, then I'd be inclined to agree it technically works, since you'd have a 1st level spell known, which casts from a second level slot, and could be increased to a 2nd level spell cast from a third level slot.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I that trick works, there is an even simpler one: Imbue with Spell Ability. You only need to be 5th level and get someone to give you a 2nd level spell. At that point you "fulfill" the prerequisite.

But, in reality, even if the wording isn't so precise, the requirement is to have one or more slots for divine spells of 2nd level that are granted by having a class that cast divine spells. But that description is a mouthful and the developers never thought it was needed to explain it.

Getting the ability to cast the spells temporarily will never satisfy a prestige class prerequisites.

Even if the GM decides to allow it, you lose access to all features granted by the prestige class as soon as you cast or lose the matemagiched spell. Prestige classes can't satisfy their prerequisites by themself and when you lose the prerequisite you lose access to all the class features.

FAQs wrote:

Retraining: Can I retrain out of my base classes and use my prestige class levels to meet the requirements for that prestige class?

No.
The retraining rules say, "If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again." Therefore, if you retrain out of the base class and that causes you to no longer meet the requirements of the prestige class, you no longer have access to the class features from that prestige class, and therefore can't use that prestige class to meet the requirements of anything (including itself).

Update 10/16/13: In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class.

Update 10/16/13: New ruling: You cannot use retraining to replace a base class level with a prestige class level.


The minimum entry for Mystic Theurge is 2nd level divine and 2nd level arcane spells and some skills.

Well, if you have the feat Believer's Boon, you have chosen to worship a deity, and gat a benefit from a domain. Add in Faith Magic, you can select the 1st level domain spell and prepare it in a in a 2nd level slot. You then Heighten it to a 3rd level slot so that it counts as a 2nd level spell. [Or just select a 2nd level domain spell placed in a 3rd level slot.] This gets you divine spells without divine class.

You could enter MT as a plain Wizard 5/X (divine) 0. But this would waste the +1 level of divine class spells. Much easier to take any divine class that gives a domain and enter at Wizard 5/X (divine) 1 rather than use the Believer's Boon feat. Also lass *cheese* factor.

Easier way, you have a reliable way to get divine spells of the needed level, so you can enter the PRC.

As a GM, O would not count Imbue with Spell Ability as a reliable source of divine spells.

/cevah

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