Just wanted to post about our current game. The Dm gave us some rules for his next game, no elves or dwarves but we could pick one of the Elemental races for a half breed PC. He let us run with what each of us wanted to play no matter what. So we ended up with a Swashbuckler Human (with a phobia of insects), a Sylph Witch (my character who is also the healer of the party), an Undine Unchained Rogue, an Ifrit Sorcerer, and a Archanist/Bard. Our rogue has the highest strength and is the tank in the party...The Swashbuckler is next best but not really a super fighter. My witch has saved the party's butts quite a few times with one of her cantrips, "Lightning Sand". It works great on the lower level mob and allows the Rogue and the Swashbuckler to handle only a couple at a time.
Right now we are all 3rd level. If we can ever get enough gold together my witch can start brewing potions, hopefully healing potions.
This is the first time I have played where we didn't have a killer fighter in the party... It is interesting and we have to watch what we do. And if we have to fight bugs the Swashbuckler runs away LOL...
That Swashbuckler is going to be a machine at level 5...Crit 25% of the time with a rapier and if built right can get +14 (+23 on the crit)damage with each hit and no penalty.
At early levels stats are more important than class. Around 4th to 6th level is when most classes start to come into their own. Honestly even a full arcane caster like a wizard or witch with an 18 STR would be the best fighter at 1st
There are plenty of casters so you could invest in summon Monsters and augment summoning, at least for mobs should do the trick. Also there's the 4th level feat animal Ally that gives you an animal companion, but has pre recs. Buff your rogues with use Magic device to cast shield and other self targeted buffs. Toughness is a Nice feat too.
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I'm still waiting for the part where you say where you messed up. Because the OP doesn't include that part.
Honestly though, that party has no tank. And that's fine. You don't need a tank in Pathfinder. You don't need a heavy armor wearing character, you don't need a d10/d12 HD character, and you especially don't need a high strength character. Seriously, what would strength have anything to do with tanking? Tanking is about defense, while strength is an offensive stat.
What the GM did allows you to break your own mental shackles regarding the need for distinct, specific 'party roles'; a concept that never had any validity in Pathfinder. Enjoy your newfound freedom!
Happens in other campaigns, too - I play the tanky rogue also. The players of our d10 characters tend to quit the party, d12 is not allowed, so being Small with Dex 18 and using Total Defense (when needed) is the most tanky thing around.
It helps that the campaign is only at level 7 and rather low-powered. I picked up Two-Weapon Defense, which incidentally improves Total Defense by another +1, resulting in a noticeable +7. Just standing there and jumping around is not really satisfying, though - lately I figured out I could combine Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise (was a feat tax for better feinting anyway). Horrible AB is better than no attack.
Sure it's suboptimal, but it's also an experience you'd miss if the party followed the common guidelines.
The whole concept of tanking doesn't really make sense in Pathfinder, as most sentient monsters, at least, will just ignore the tank and attack the other PCs. This explains it better than I cna https://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/tanking
The law of averages says that eventually if they are forced to roll enough they are going to start Crit’ing you and a non d10/12 character is not going to be able to take it. You need damage output and tank attributes.
So we ended up with a Swashbuckler Human (with a phobia of insects), a Sylph Witch (my character who is also the healer of the party), an Undine Unchained Rogue, an Ifrit Sorcerer, and a Archanist/Bard. Our rogue has the highest strength and is the tank in the party...
It is very weird for an unchained rogue to have a high strength. Is he actually strength based? If not, I might say that it’s a bit “boring” to have 2 dex-based fighters in the same party. But I don’t know if I’d say you “messed up”. A party like that should do fine and maybe you can try to role play a rivalry.
CMD requires strength. As does CMB for positioning maneuvers that help tanking. Also armour is heavy.I'm still waiting for the part where you say where you messed up. Because the OP doesn't include that part.
Honestly though, that party has no tank. And that's fine. You don't need a tank in Pathfinder. You don't need a heavy armor wearing character, you don't need a d10/d12 HD character, and you especially don't need a high strength character. Seriously, what would strength have anything to do with tanking? Tanking is about defense, while strength is an offensive stat.
What the GM did allows you to break your own mental shackles regarding the need for distinct, specific 'party roles'; a concept that never had any validity in Pathfinder. Enjoy your newfound freedom!
Str is one component of CMD; Dex is another. If you specialise in positioning maneuvers you can make them use Dex, if not they're unimportant. AC is about the same with high Dex and light armour as it is with low Dex and heavy armour.
Right now we just made 3rd level. I guess I should have mentioned our rogue has 13 strength which makes her the strongest in the party. The sorcerer has 8 strength and my character (witch) has 10. Swashbuckler has 11. Bard has 10. The Rogue does the most damage with her rapier when in combat due to the wee bit higher strength. The Swashbuckler is the next best fighter but both rogue and SB are limited as far as armor goes; so far we haven't been able to get much GP to buy anything but light armor. IF it wasn't for my Witch and her Lightning Sand cantrip the party would be totally screwed. The bard helps some with her songs but only +1.
I am just used to playing in parties where there is always a combat machine. In our last game I played a War Priest who between spells and buffs was a killing machine in full plate. Even at lower levels with lighter armor he was still a good fighter.
God i hope your gm is nice enough to not throw shadows at this party.
Without dex to damage, this party will struggle badly against creatures with DR.
Right now we are all 3rd level. If we can ever get enough gold together my witch can start brewing potions, hopefully healing potions.
Don't bother with brewing healing potions. At 50gp for 1d8+1 healing, you are wasting coin. Instead, buy a Wand of Healing (for 750gp) which gives the same 1d8+1 healing for 15gp.
Later, get a Healer's Satchel (Specialized) for 3000 which gives you access to healing poison, disease, and even stat drain.
/cevah
You can also go for an Extraction Scarificator for 2500gp. This gets you 1/day lesser restoration or cure moderate wounds.
/cevah
Don't bother with brewing healing potions...
I'd follow that up with: don't bother brewing *a lot* of healing potions.
Potions are all about action economy and spellcaster placement. Why spend your turn casting barkskin on your ally when they can drink a potion and do it themselves? What about when your scout runs into trouble far from the range of your spells? Good thing they've got that elixir of invisibility.And if everyone carries a potion of cure light wounds on themselves to force down the gullet of one of their unconsciousness companions, you don't always need to drop everything the moment someone hits the ground to save them.
Wands are efficient. They're the workhorse. Potions are niché. An "in case of emergency, break glass" item.
As far as action economy is concerned, a potion of Enlarge Person takes a standard to drink, but a round to cast. Of course, getting it out takes a move unless you carry it in hand all the time.
Another is a potion of Lesser Restoration which is consumed as a standard but takes 3 rounds to cast.
/cevah
Sure. My point is that a potion can be used BY ANYONE, so if you need to cast two spells in a turn, a potion is a decent way to get those effects started ASAP, versus a wand that can only be used by an actual caster.
That, and it never hurts to have an option for getting the guy with the cure spells back on his feet.
If you're the main healer, check out this spell
https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Spirit%20Share
It's great when you have a familiar like Witch does, it's gonna save you movement and actions
If you're the main healer, check out this spell
It's great when you have a familiar like Witch does, it's gonna save you movement and actions
Linkified.
Trading a 1st level spell and a standard for a move (to grab the potion) and a standard can be beneficial at times. Especially if you don't want others to know what potion you are giving your friend. Only works once unless your potion container has multiple doses.
It does let you sneakily give another a potion by casting the spell out of sight of the enemy, and while you all go up and start talking with them, you can give your friend that enlarge person potion without alerting anyone. Imagine the surprise as your friend suddenly grows and then attacks.
/cevah
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My witch has saved the party's butts quite a few times with one of her cantrips, "Lightning Sand". It works great on the lower level mob and allows the Rogue and the Swashbuckler to handle only a couple at a time.
I think it's worth noting that a 3rd-party cantrip with a (small) AoE entangle/difficult terrain effect is a large part of the party's success. It seems overpowered, but if I were in the OP's position, I'd be thankful it was allowed.
