Stats and Heritages for APG Ancestries


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I wanted to focus some discussion on predicting the stats for the APG Ancestries, since they're one of the elements I'm most excited for. We know that we have five ancestries (Ratfolk, Catfolk, Tengu, Orcs, Kobolds) and five universal heritages (Aasimar, Tiefling, Duskwalker, Dhampir, Changeling.)

Some questions that jump out at me:

What ability scores do you think each ancestry will have boosts and flaws to?

What Heritages do you think each ancestry will have?

How do you think they'll handle variations within each universal heritage? (Devil Tieflings vs. Oni Tieflings, for example)

Which are you most looking forward to for character building? Any particular concepts you're excited about?

Shadow Lodge

Ability scores should be pretty close to the PF1 versions.
Heritages will probably use alternate racial traits (or a combination of them) as a starting point for a lot of races ('Surface Sprinter' might be converted to a Ratfolk heritage if the speed variation isn't dropped entirely).
Tiefling and Aasimar heritages will probably be, well, heritages...

Looking forward to Ratfolk personally, but may well be burned out on the 'small skill-monkey' character by then (playing a halfling rogue in AoA right now).

Liberty's Edge

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Yeah, I'd expect the following stat distributions:

Ratfolk: +Dex, +Int, -Str
Catfolk: +Dex, +Cha, -Wis
Tengu: +Dex, +Wis, -Con
Kobold: +Dex, +Wis, -Str (Though they could get +Int instead of Wis)
Orc: +Str, +Wis, -Int (this is the one I'm iffiest on, I'm sure of the Str boost, and think the Int penalty is pretty likely, but they could easily get +Cha instead of +Wis, and could even get a different penalty)

That's a heavy Dex emphasis, but it's also really appropriate thematically to the point of being necessary on most of them.

Heritages will indeed probably be inspired by Racial Traits and Alternate Racial Traits (I believe a cheek pouch heritage has been mentioned for Ratfolk), though which will get the full treatment we'll just have to see.

The 'floating Heritages' like Aasimar and Tiefling will come with some interesting stuff, though we'll need to see exactly what. I'd expect that things like Oni or Devil blood would be Ancestry Feats for Tiefling if they exist at all at this point (which I wouldn't count on).


I would expect some armor proficiency for Archon-blooded Aasimar.

With all those traps, I think int would make more sense than wis for kobolds.

I don't think they will make an int deficient race (or at least not until they PC up Xulgaths and maybe not then). That brushes a little too close to racism for some folks, especially when you are talking about orcs.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I would guess that kobolds are +Cha rather than any other mental ability score, as they had a favored class of sorcerer in D&D 3rd edition and Paizo hasn't moved them enough from that concept to suggest any other mental ability score.

I agree with the other four though (and am actually pretty confident about the proposed stats for orcs).

Liberty's Edge

David knott 242 wrote:
I would guess that kobolds are +Cha rather than any other mental ability score, as they had a favored class of sorcerer in D&D 3rd edition and Paizo hasn't moved them enough from that concept to suggest any other mental ability score.

I would have suspected as much also but looking at the Bestiary entries the stats break down like this:

Warrior (-1): Str +1, Dex +3, Con +0, Int +0, Wis +1, Cha –1
Scout (1): Str +0, Dex +4, Con +1, Int +0, Wis +3, Cha +1
Dragon Mage (2): Str –1, Dex +3, Con +0, Int +2, Wis +1, Cha +4

So the bare minimum "base score" for any stat on the NPCs is as follows:
Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

That's effectively 2 penalties to consider between Str and Cha as "Racially universal" between different levels/types of kobold NPCs but it also showcases the max range for them too at level range -1 through 2.

I personally think because the penalties fall on two stats for NPCs we very well may be seeing Kobold Heritages that determine if they either get the Str or Cha penalty based on their Scale Color. Each color could in fact have its own "spread" and I think that is something that's ripe for development.

If they come out with 1 set for Kobolds, by bet would be on +Dex, +Wis, -Str


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Yeah, I'd expect the following stat distributions:

Ratfolk: +Dex, +Int, -Str
Catfolk: +Dex, +Cha, -Wis
Tengu: +Dex, +Wis, -Con
Kobold: +Dex, +Wis, -Str (Though they could get +Int instead of Wis)
Orc: +Str, +Wis, -Int (this is the one I'm iffiest on, I'm sure of the Str boost, and think the Int penalty is pretty likely, but they could easily get +Cha instead of +Wis, and could even get a different penalty)

That's a heavy Dex emphasis, but it's also really appropriate thematically to the point of being necessary on most of them.

Heritages will indeed probably be inspired by Racial Traits and Alternate Racial Traits (I believe a cheek pouch heritage has been mentioned for Ratfolk), though which will get the full treatment we'll just have to see.

The 'floating Heritages' like Aasimar and Tiefling will come with some interesting stuff, though we'll need to see exactly what. I'd expect that things like Oni or Devil blood would be Ancestry Feats for Tiefling if they exist at all at this point (which I wouldn't count on).

That's about what I figured, down to the possibility of Charisma Orcs, which I would be very in favor of- Sorcerers and such I think should be a great fit for them, and it would make them naturally good at intimidation.

The one exception is Kobolds, I can't imagine Wisdom, so I'm seeing either Intelligence for their trap setting, or Charisma for dragon sorcery. I'm kind of hoping for intelligence, since all we have right now are Elves and Hobgoblins, it would also be nice to differentiate them from goblins.

Mechagamera wrote:

I would expect some armor proficiency for Archon-blooded Aasimar.

With all those traps, I think int would make more sense than wis for kobolds.

I don't think they will make an int deficient race (or at least not until they PC up Xulgaths and maybe not then). That brushes a little too close to racism for some folks, especially when you are talking about orcs.

Lizardfolk already have an int penalty, so that ship has sailed.

Liberty's Edge

My guess of +Wis for Kobolds is based on two things:

#1: As analyzed by Themetricsystem, it's by far their highest stat among NPCs. That's not always controlling, but it's potentially indicative.
#2: Otherwise, their stats would be identical to the listed Ratfolk stats, which I think are likely.

My suspicions that +Cha Orcs are possible is basically that +Str, +Wis, -Int is the stat-line they gave Lizardfolk and they might want to not duplicate it. +Str, +Wis, -Cha is also a possible Orc stat line, but I think the Int penalty is much more likely.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:

My guess of +Wis for Kobolds is based on two things:

#1: As analyzed by Themetricsystem, it's by far their highest stat among NPCs. That's not always controlling, but it's potentially indicative.
#2: Otherwise, their stats would be identical to the listed Ratfolk stats, which I think are likely.

My suspicions that +Cha Orcs are possible is basically that +Str, +Wis, -Int is the stat-line they gave Lizardfolk and they might want to not duplicate it. +Str, +Wis, -Cha is also a possible Orc stat line, but I think the Int penalty is much more likely.

It's hard to say, since dupes are probably unavoidable, since there's only 9 boost combos (it balloons up to 36 with flaws, because it's 3 physical * 3 Mental * 4 possible flaws) and while we could go for a while without exact dupes mathwise, I assume the designers would prefer to give ancestries fitting combos, rather than fill out a grid so to speak.

So I think flavor arguments are more compelling here, Wisdom Orcs lean on the tropes of Orcish Shamanism- I'm not sure how much Golarion leans on that? (I'm new with 2e) I also was considering that instead of an Int penalty, if they did want to push back against orc stereotypes (and their real world roots) we could see a dex penalty, so something like +Str +Wis -Dex, differentiating them from Lizardfolk, and speaking to a lack of trafitional value in finesse.

As for Kobolds, they might be the biggest wait and see on the list, as they don't really have any consistently higher mental stat in their monster block, and they could flex on multiple lines.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I sort of get where that's coming from, but just... thinking about all of the ways I've seen kobolds portrayed in fiction it's hard to picture 'possessed of great wisdom' as one of their defining traits.


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I could see Kobolds being CHA to enable them to make good sorcerers, which is a deeply fitting option for them.

Squiggit wrote:
I sort of get where that's coming from, but just... thinking about all of the ways I've seen kobolds portrayed in fiction it's hard to picture 'possessed of great wisdom' as one of their defining traits.

It’s endlessly frustrating to be that “Wisdom” in d20 actually means “weird vague combination of willpower, piety, and perceptiveness, as well as some fields of knowledge that arbitrarily fit it, rather than Intelligence.”

Liberty's Edge

Wisdom means being perceptive, strong willed, and good at surviving. All of those are pretty standard on Kobolds, really.

It also involves some degree of memory and common sense...but actually, given their general reputation for cowardice, I'd say kobolds are among the more sensible humanoid species, and their memory certainly isn't generally portrayed as worse than average.

I doubt a Cha bonus because only their Sorcerers really seem to make use of it, and floating bonuses make that easy to do without it being an Ancestry-wide thing, but also to differentiate them from goblins.

The-Magic-Sword wrote:
It's hard to say, since dupes are probably unavoidable, since there's only 9 boost combos (it balloons up to 36 with flaws, because it's 3 physical * 3 Mental * 4 possible flaws) and while we could go for a while without exact dupes mathwise, I assume the designers would prefer to give ancestries fitting combos, rather than fill out a grid so to speak.

Oh, we're getting duplicates. Indeed, the Catfolk stats I listed above are identical to the Goblin stat-line. But I think avoiding duplicates is likely something of a tiebreaker if they're already considering multiple distributions. I particularly think they'll try and avoid two sets of the same stat-line in the same book (which is why I think Orcs sharing one with Iruxi is more likely than Kobolds and Ratfolk having an identical stat-line).


Curious why I don't see much speculation on "universal" Heritage stat impact...
Seems like open question is, will they dictate converting "free" boost into fixed stat determined by Heritage?
...Tending to constrain non-Human class/build options, although not so totally in all but most conflicting combos.
...Or they could delve into making these as much about Flaw Stat, possibly in package with Boost replacement...?
...Or will they lose all influence/impact towards stats?
I honestly regret Half-Elf and Half-Orc abandoned stat impact as they did, better to say "must boost one of X/Y" instead.
...Stuff like Dhampir or Changeling + Leshy just don't make much sense IMHO, so hopefully not 100% "universal",
and I tend to think stuff like Planetouched would do better being similarly limited ...OH HORROR SIN VS PLAYER CUSTOMIZATION ;-)

IMHO Kobold Clerics are fairly common, yet Wizards are not as much...? (in favor of WIS there)
CHA also makes sense with Sorcerors, I almost like +WISCHA although of course that violates the +PhysicalMental "rule".
(I'm not convinced that is important in 2E considering larger system with 4x and ABC boosts, but concede Paizo may be applying that rule)
(I'm inclined to think a Trap spotting Ancestry Feat makes sense, and WIS coincides with that too...)

I don't think INT is any less likely a Flaw Stat for Orcs than it is for Lizardfolk...
+STRCON -INT seems like pretty coherent Orc array... IMHO that isn't as problematic or niche-favoring as people seem to think,
it's exploitiest combo is probably Archers but they get half STR dmg efficiency (and would be abandoning mental stats),
it doesn't really change much for melee builds, it's pretty decent for most casters who could use STR for armor/melee/bulk,
and even works for Unarmored casters if they reverse STR with Double Voluntary Flaw for -STR +DEXCON +WIS/CHA.
Wizard is toughy but not really much more than the norm for builds relevant to Flaw Ability,
and they are even well placed to go "Armored Wizard" if they want, with STR and CON to support that niche.

I personally would like further STR/CON boosts to distinguish Orc more but think that would require going outside standard "A" stage,
which very well may be enough to be turned down for apparent complexity, although I don't want to write it off completely.
Paizo can always express more Orc-ness by Orc-specific Heritages, that even exclude Half-Orcs from poaching by "physiology".
(specifically referencing SHORT Orc life span might be convenient way to do that...?)

Besides the over abundance of DEX Boosts, the glaring discrepancy IMHO is the lack of DEX Flaw. (not sure which it may apply to in APG)
If anything, I think DEX Flaw is MORE viable with a CON Boost (fixed or free) than the reverse (Elf's fixed DEX boost with fixed CON Flaw),
because in terms of AC, DEX is easily replaceable and limited anyways, while CON's HPs even help manage more Reflex fails.
(3.x/1E heritage holds DEX as "God stat" but I really don't think that is true in 2E any more)
Obviously that will be impediment to Thief Rogue or Archer unless the stars really align, but no different than other stats.

Liberty's Edge

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I highly doubt any Heritage will change how stat boosts or flaws work, though one could easily recommend specific allocation of your free stat boost.

As for +Str/Con on Orcs, it violates the Physical/Mental stat boost allocation they've been sticking to thus far, and I thus consider it highly unlikely. This is particularly true because they could easily have gone Dex/Con on Hobgoblins instead of Con/Int, and if they were willing to do that on any Ancestry I think they likely would've on Hobgoblins (as well as Orcs, mind you).

And I could definitely see more Dex penalty Ancestries going forward, I just don't think any of the announced ones in the APG are right for that. I mean, almost all are Dex-bonus Ancestries thematically, with ORcs the sole exception, and Orcs basically need a mental flaw thematically.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:

I highly doubt any Heritage will change how stat boosts or flaws work, though one could easily recommend specific allocation of your free stat boost.

As for +Str/Con on Orcs, it violates the Physical/Mental stat boost allocation they've been sticking to thus far, and I thus consider it highly unlikely. This is particularly true because they could easily have gone Dex/Con on Hobgoblins instead of Con/Int, and if they were willing to do that on any Ancestry I think they likely would've on Hobgoblins (as well as Orcs, mind you).

And I could definitely see more Dex penalty Ancestries going forward, I just don't think any of the announced ones in the APG are right for that. I mean, almost all are Dex-bonus Ancestries thematically, with ORcs the sole exception, and Orcs basically need a mental flaw thematically.

Normally I'd agree about the mental penalty, but they might intentionally push back on the 'dumb savages' orc thing, which I'd actually support- and dex would actually be perfect, because graceful and clever with their fingers is probably the last thing you'd think of an Orc as being.

The only Orc Rogues (ignoring voluntary flaws and/or future options of course) would be Ruffians, which would be very thematic for them, they'd be great as Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, Champions- but always focused on strength, which would accentuate them as the muscular powerhouses they've always been, while deemphasizing their 'problematic' stupidity.

That being said I don't want this to devolve into an argument about Social Justice and its place in tabletop rpgs, its just we know its a concern for Paizo how certain tropes are handled, so I'm using that to speculate and build off your assumptions, which I think are pretty good overall.

As for heritage stat impact that was brought up, I agree, it would just be very messy and would remove a great degree of the appeal of the universal heritage- customization, having something like the fan favorite tiefling be able to use any set of stats from any ancestry and perform well as any class is very exciting thematically. Their ancestry feats though, I hope are really flavorful, also the heritage itself, since it has to carry the feel of what was originally a whole race.

In fact, I'll actually note here that I'm not familiar with Pathfinder 1e, so I actually don't know about the alternate racial traits, we had similar stuff in 4e of course, but I haven't the faintest of what Pathfinder had for these races. The Designers were kind enough to confirm that the Tengu Long-Nosed form will be making a return however, so I'm excited for that.

Would you guys care to share your favorite alternate racial traits, or ones you specifically look forward to as possible heritages?

Quandary wrote:


...Stuff like Dhampir or Changeling + Leshy just don't make much sense IMHO, so hopefully not 100% "universal",

My assumption is you're right about it not being 100% universal, but that it'll be handled by a sidebar, or rarity:uncommon with a note for GMs to consider whether a specific concept makes sense, or to have a player justify it to them.

E.g. a Dhampir Leshy could be a nature spirit from an area blighted by the undead or flush with shadow magic.

For some tables, that explanation is plenty believable, for others it wouldn't fly.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Themetricsystem wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
I would guess that kobolds are +Cha rather than any other mental ability score, as they had a favored class of sorcerer in D&D 3rd edition and Paizo hasn't moved them enough from that concept to suggest any other mental ability score.

I would have suspected as much also but looking at the Bestiary entries the stats break down like this:

Warrior (-1): Str +1, Dex +3, Con +0, Int +0, Wis +1, Cha –1
Scout (1): Str +0, Dex +4, Con +1, Int +0, Wis +3, Cha +1
Dragon Mage (2): Str –1, Dex +3, Con +0, Int +2, Wis +1, Cha +4

So the bare minimum "base score" for any stat on the NPCs is as follows:
Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

That's effectively 2 penalties to consider between Str and Cha as "Racially universal" between different levels/types of kobold NPCs but it also showcases the max range for them too at level range -1 through 2.

I personally think because the penalties fall on two stats for NPCs we very well may be seeing Kobold Heritages that determine if they either get the Str or Cha penalty based on their Scale Color. Each color could in fact have its own "spread" and I think that is something that's ripe for development.

If they come out with 1 set for Kobolds, by bet would be on +Dex, +Wis, -Str

For a counter-example, hobgoblin monsters don't seem to match up with hobgoblin PCs in terms of stats. Their only negative modifiers are to Cha, and they generally have higher Wis mods than Int mods. As PCs, their adjustments are +Con, +Int, and -Wis.

On the other hand, your approach would have worked with lizardfolk.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'd guess kobolds have mental stat bonus on whatever stat was used for building traps in 2e :D

Liberty's Edge

The-Magic-Sword wrote:
Normally I'd agree about the mental penalty, but they might intentionally push back on the 'dumb savages' orc thing, which I'd actually support- and dex would actually be perfect, because graceful and clever with their fingers is probably the last thing you'd think of an Orc as being.

I still think Int is their most likely penalty. they're already drifting away from them as always Evil (with the Orcs of the Mwangi Expanse being friendly folk for the most part), and I think they'll continue to emphasize Orcs as physically competent in general, not 'slow but strong'.

The-Magic-Sword wrote:
As for heritage stat impact that was brought up, I agree, it would just be very messy and would remove a great degree of the appeal of the universal heritage- customization, having something like the fan favorite tiefling be able to use any set of stats from any ancestry and perform well as any class is very exciting thematically. Their ancestry feats though, I hope are really flavorful, also the heritage itself, since it has to carry the feel of what was originally a whole race.

I think it's pretty likely they will be. There's definitely room for it, and the wealth of options in that regard in PF1 gives them a lot of material to work with.

The-Magic-Sword wrote:
In fact, I'll actually note here that I'm not familiar with Pathfinder 1e, so I actually don't know about the alternate racial traits, we had similar stuff in 4e of course, but I haven't the faintest of what Pathfinder had for these races. The Designers were kind enough to confirm that the Tengu Long-Nosed form will be making a return however, so I'm excited for that.

The Long-Nosed thing is, I believe, an Ancestry Feat rather than a Heritage. But yeah, it's definitely in.

The-Magic-Sword wrote:
Would you guys care to share your favorite alternate racial traits, or ones you specifically look forward to as possible heritages?

I'm always a little wishy-washy on which things should be Feats and which Heritages, but I'll do a separate post of these since this seems a neat thing to examine.

David knott 242 wrote:

For a counter-example, hobgoblin monsters don't seem to match up with hobgoblin PCs in terms of stats. Their only negative modifiers are to Cha, and they generally have higher Wis mods than Int mods. As PCs, their adjustments are +Con, +Int, and -Wis.

On the other hand, your approach would have worked with lizardfolk.

It also about 2/3 works for Leshy (who, among NPCs, all have positive Con mods, and definitely prioritize Wis over other mental stats, with low Int, but have more Dex than Con).

CorvusMask wrote:
I'd guess kobolds have mental stat bonus on whatever stat was used for building traps in 2e :D

Traps are Crafting, so this would be Int, but I think a trap-enhancing Ancestry Feat or Heritage (or both) does fine on this even with another stat primary.

Liberty's Edge

So, let's break down likely Heritages and Ancestry Feats based on their Bestiary entries in PF2 and their Racial Traits in PF1:

Catfolk:

Based on the Bestiary entry, we know that Cat's Luck (and thus rerolling failed Reflex Saves) is almost certainly in. I'd guess as a Feat, but who knows. They also have a Speed of 30 feet and Low Light Vision in the Bestiary, so those are likely in.

PF1 also gives them a bonus to movement when charging or running, and an alternate trait that ignores some difficult terrain, so I'd say that some movement stuff on par with Elves is likely.

Likely Heritages based on PF1 traits probably include one granting a Climb Speed, one granting claw attacks (these could be default available like Iruxi, too, but I'd bet Heritage), one granting reduced falling damage, and probably one gaining benefits to gathering information (there are several social-related options, the most thematic of which is 'Curiosity' which aids in information gathering). That last one could also be a Feat easily enough, I suppose.

Kobolds:

Based on their Bestiary entries, Darkvision is in, the Hurried Retreat action is almost certainly available (probably as an Ancestry Feat), and Sneak Attack is very common...I could see a Heritage granting free Rogue Multiclass specifically. Some bonus to Craft for trapmaking also seems very likely from some source.

Looking at PF1, they will also likely have some sort of Stealth related option, a bite attack (possibly with extra elemental damage), elemental resistance to one element, a prehensile tail, gliding wings, and sharing a space with other kobolds and getting bonuses, are all possible. As are social and perception/survival related stuff in general, really.

Orcs:

Based on their Bestiary entry, Darkvision and Ferocity are almost certainly in (though, like Half Orcs, their Ferocity may well be limited in some way).

Based on PF1, they're definitely getting Weapon Familiarity just like Half Orcs, and may get something in the way of the Scent ability, a bite attack, and something resisting being Sickened or getting Diseases. Whether those'd be Heritages or Feats I have no idea.

Sadly, Orcs didn't get huge numbers of option in PF1, so we'll see if they poach some Half Orc ones or go another way.

Ratfolk:

Based on the Bestiary, we're almost certainly getting Cheek Pouches for storing things, and the Swarming rule (which allows multiple Ratfolk to share a space). Both of those seem likely to be Feats to me. Darkvision is definitely in, and they're listed with a fangs natural weapon, so that's likely (though whether inherent or a Feat or Heritage, who knows).

PF1 things that might carry over include bonuses with crafting, bonuses to interacting with rodents, bonuses against disease, bonuses to Stealth, and the Scent ability. All seem plausible as Feats, and some might work as Heritages, too (particularly Scent).

Tengu:

Per the Bestiary entry, Tengu seem like they probably get a Beak attack, and likely a Feat for 'Go For The Eyes', as well as definitely getting Low Light Vision.

Per PF1 stuff, I'd expect their 'weapon familiarity' Feat to hit the entire 'Sword' weapon group, a Heritage or Ancestry Feat for extra languages, something perception related likely doing with a 'carrion sense', a Feat or Heritage for gliding, and maybe something stealth related.


The-Magic-Sword wrote:

My assumption is you're right about it not being 100% universal, but that it'll be handled by a sidebar, or rarity:uncommon with a note for GMs to consider whether a specific concept makes sense, or to have a player justify it to them.

E.g. a Dhampir Leshy could be a nature spirit from an area blighted by the undead or flush with shadow magic.

For some tables, that explanation is plenty believable, for others it wouldn't fly.

This is how I'm hoping it works. I implemented a houserule for combining any two ancestries to make half-ancestries, and I basically told my players "If you can justify it, I'll allow it." And one of my players brought me a Catfolk/Leshy concept I absolutely love, even though those two ancestries seem incompatible.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Orc Ferocity, you'll notice, has the Orc trait rather than the Half Orc trait- as soon as Orc ancestry exists it'll be legal for Orcs to take, ditto for weapon familiarity. But otherwise those sound neat, I just hope we don't get too redundant with climate distinctions- like having a 'desert' everything, or having every ancestry have a cold resistant heritage.

Liberty's Edge

The-Magic-Sword wrote:
Orc Ferocity, you'll notice, has the Orc trait rather than the Half Orc trait- as soon as Orc ancestry exists it'll be legal for Orcs to take, ditto for weapon familiarity.

Yeah, fair. I thought that might be the case, I just wasn't in the mood to look that up on top of looking through all the PF1 versions of the Races.

The-Magic-Sword wrote:
But otherwise those sound neat, I just hope we don't get too redundant with climate distinctions- like having a 'desert' everything, or having every ancestry have a cold resistant heritage.

I highly doubt any but maybe Orcs will have more than one environmental Heritage, and I wouldn't bet on it for Orcs, either. Frankly, I'm skeptical Ratfolk, Kobolds, or Tengu will have any such Heritages at all.

I can think of a bunch of potential neat Heritages for all of them, really, beyond those listed above, the ones listed above are just the ones that would be directly inspired by PF1 mechanical options.


The-Magic-Sword wrote:
But otherwise those sound neat, I just hope we don't get too redundant with climate distinctions- like having a 'desert' everything, or having every ancestry have a cold resistant heritage.

Perhaps they will make versatile heritages for 'desert' and 'arctic' at some point. That would seem in line with the design philosophy behind general archetypes.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Vallarthis wrote:
The-Magic-Sword wrote:
But otherwise those sound neat, I just hope we don't get too redundant with climate distinctions- like having a 'desert' everything, or having every ancestry have a cold resistant heritage.
Perhaps they will make versatile heritages for 'desert' and 'arctic' at some point. That would seem in line with the design philosophy behind general archetypes.

Some of why I brought it up was looking at Arctic Elves and Wintertouched humans, so they already exist as unique options- and notably lock into the game differently (Arctic elf links info Wandering Heart, for instance)


I'm definetely excited to see the heritages for APG ancestries, because I think they'll expand on what is an valid option there. I feel like they've stayed fairly conservative so far in limiting themselves on what a heritage can do, which isn't a complaint, just an observation (I think I would make the same call myself in fact). But I think in the APG they'll let themselves push into new options on what a heritage can give an ancestry, even at the risk of power creep, and I'm interested to see where the new boundaries will be.


I'm still a fan of +Str/+Int/-Wis for Orcs.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I'm still a fan of +Str/+Int/-Wis for Orcs.

I wouldn't revolt over it honestly, but I can't see it- they just don't have the classes of int as go to stuff in their 'brand.'

Wise Shamananic Druids and such? Yeah absolutely

Mighty Sorcerers with magic that burns in their blood, and bardic skalds who inspire great courage? Sure

But scholarly Wizards and Alchemists? meh, Witch is the only int class I could imagine.

Which isn't to suggest an orcish int *character* would be wrong, but for the stat bonuses for the entire ancestry? nah. It's weird to think of them as more scholarly than say, dwarves, or halflings. All of this of course, is with the assumption that their brand wasn't rebuilt, which I'd be ok with- though I still love the idea of Charisma Orcs, because you can get the Sorcerer Orcs, but still create a scholarly Orc tradition through the Bard.

AnimatedPaper wrote:
I'm definetely excited to see the heritages for APG ancestries, because I think they'll expand on what is an valid option there. I feel like they've stayed fairly conservative so far in limiting themselves on what a heritage can do, which isn't a complaint, just an observation (I think I would make the same call myself in fact). But I think in the APG they'll let themselves push into new options on what a heritage can give an ancestry, even at the risk of power creep, and I'm interested to see where the new boundaries will be.

Same here, in general the Core Rulebook put down a lot of important infrastructure, that it feels like the APG needs to really show us the full scope of. Action-variable spells, more unique ancestry feats, I'm eager to see a lot of this stuff come to fruition.

Any particular hopes for new heritages?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Salamileg wrote:
And one of my players brought me a Catfolk/Leshy concept I absolutely love, even though those two ancestries seem incompatible.

I absolutely need to hear more about this concept, that's fantastic, lol.

I haven't seen much discussion yet on how the previous subraces might be represented (the different blooded Aasimars and Tieflings, for example). A heritage is just a heritage with no real options within it (at least so far). It seems like there are three major possibilities to me:

1. Paizo will abandon the concept of the subraces entirely with no 2E equivalent. The Aasimar heritage will be just that, with no more mention of Agenl, Archon, Garuda, etc blooded Aasimars. This feels doubtful.
2. These universal heritages are gonna come with some noticeable tables that include different options to represent these subraces, not unlike the Barbarian animal or dragon instincts.
3. Something else I haven't thought of, lol.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
VestOfHolding wrote:
Salamileg wrote:
And one of my players brought me a Catfolk/Leshy concept I absolutely love, even though those two ancestries seem incompatible.

I absolutely need to hear more about this concept, that's fantastic, lol.

I haven't seen much discussion yet on how the previous subraces might be represented (the different blooded Aasimars and Tieflings, for example). A heritage is just a heritage with no real options within it (at least so far). It seems like there are three major possibilities to me:

1. Paizo will abandon the concept of the subraces entirely with no 2E equivalent. The Aasimar heritage will be just that, with no more mention of Agenl, Archon, Garuda, etc blooded Aasimars. This feels doubtful.
2. These universal heritages are gonna come with some noticeable tables that include different options to represent these subraces, not unlike the Barbarian animal or dragon instincts.
3. Something else I haven't thought of, lol.

Actually, I've been thinking about this since I wrote OP- how about singular heritage (Tiefling for instance) with a singular effect, but with feats with differing 'origins' the way some ancestry feats have ethnicity reqs.

So you might have certain ancestry feats under tiefling, that have a special line where you have to be descended from Oni to take it (or anything else.)

Grand Archive

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
The-Magic-Sword wrote:
VestOfHolding wrote:
Salamileg wrote:
And one of my players brought me a Catfolk/Leshy concept I absolutely love, even though those two ancestries seem incompatible.

I absolutely need to hear more about this concept, that's fantastic, lol.

I haven't seen much discussion yet on how the previous subraces might be represented (the different blooded Aasimars and Tieflings, for example). A heritage is just a heritage with no real options within it (at least so far). It seems like there are three major possibilities to me:

1. Paizo will abandon the concept of the subraces entirely with no 2E equivalent. The Aasimar heritage will be just that, with no more mention of Agenl, Archon, Garuda, etc blooded Aasimars. This feels doubtful.
2. These universal heritages are gonna come with some noticeable tables that include different options to represent these subraces, not unlike the Barbarian animal or dragon instincts.
3. Something else I haven't thought of, lol.

Actually, I've been thinking about this since I wrote OP- how about singular heritage (Tiefling for instance) with a singular effect, but with feats with differing 'origins' the way some ancestry feats have ethnicity reqs.

So you might have certain ancestry feats under tiefling, that have a special line where you have to be descended from Oni to take it (or anything else.)

If they release special bloodlines for planar scions, I would bet they would be in "lvl 1 only" ancestry feats yeah... But I kinda doubt they will be in APG? I feel like they'll try to just have a solid base for them, with "generic" heritage, and a diverse cast of feats, then, in a later book, extra feats to have a more defined bloodline.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm thinking less of dedicating a particular level to taking a feat that *makes* you, instead I'd treat it like the ethnicities in the Lost Omens character guide, it just says you must be of that ethnicity to take the thing.

Then, you just know you are or are not, and take the feat accordingly- if you do, you're presumably siloed off from feats that have a different ethnicity requirement.

Its super elegant, there's no base feature for becoming that thing, just feats that hinge on already being that thing in your backstory.

So to clarify further with an example, it isn't like "Oni Blooded" would be a feat you have to take at first level to have Oni blood, you just have Oni blood in your backstory, and that qualifies you to take feats that require Oni blood, while inherently siloing you off from feats that say, require demon blood.


The-Magic-Sword wrote:

Same here, in general the Core Rulebook put down a lot of important infrastructure, that it feels like the APG needs to really show us the full scope of. Action-variable spells, more unique ancestry feats, I'm eager to see a lot of this stuff come to fruition.

Any particular hopes for new heritages?

Of the released heritages so far, the Dwarf ones seem most interesting to me, because they get extra active options instead of just passive ones to choose from. Some ancestries also get active options, like I count any heritage that gives a cantrip, but I like the Dwarf ones best.

I take a look at the world of warcraft racial traits, and wonder if some of them could be translated into heritage options. Like warstomp. Or Quivering palm. Or Every Man for Himself.

I think it's just a design space that they haven't yet gotten to cut loose in exploring yet, and with Aasimar and Teiflings coming up I'd be interested to see what they come up with for active heritage traits.

Edit: As an example of possibly broken but flavorful, imagine a catfolk heritage that allowed you once per day to become Quickened for 1 round, letting you use the Stride action. Or a Kobold Heritage that did the same thing, but allowed you to Step.


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VestOfHolding wrote:
Salamileg wrote:
And one of my players brought me a Catfolk/Leshy concept I absolutely love, even though those two ancestries seem incompatible.
I absolutely need to hear more about this concept, that's fantastic, lol.

The short version is that her character was born a catfolk and got lost as a child in a fungus infested part of the Underdark/Darklands, where she died. Someone (she's still not sure who) found her body and used it as a vessel for a fungus leshy. However, her soul still lingered, and returned to her body when it was given life by the leshy spirit. So now her and the leshy's spirits are intertwined, one unable to survive without the other. He usually serves as her witch familiar (in the form of a black cat, just like her).


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Salamileg wrote:
VestOfHolding wrote:
Salamileg wrote:
And one of my players brought me a Catfolk/Leshy concept I absolutely love, even though those two ancestries seem incompatible.
I absolutely need to hear more about this concept, that's fantastic, lol.
The short version is that her character was born a catfolk and got lost as a child in a fungus infested part of the Underdark/Darklands, where she died. Someone (she's still not sure who) found her body and used it as a vessel for a fungus leshy. However, her soul still lingered, and returned to her body when it was given life by the leshy spirit. So now her and the leshy's spirits are intertwined, one unable to survive without the other. He usually serves as her witch familiar (in the form of a black cat, just like her).

I really love backstrokes like this, it uses magic in such a novel way to justify the combination chosen.


So I tried to classify the various heritages to get some kind of themes going. The categories I picked out are:

Active (as in, added an action you can do or expanded when you could do an action)
Bonus Feat
Environmental Resistence
Mental Skill
Movement bonus
Perception bonus
Physical Skills
Other Passive Defense
Spell save bonus
Vision upgrade (low-light to dark, normal to low-light)

Many heritages had aspects of at least two of these. Gourd leshy stumped me as far as how to categorize, but as Ratfolk will have a similar thing, I should figure out what to call that. At least, I think they'll have cheek pouches. Can't imagine why they wouldn't.

The Active and Bonus feat categories had the fewest numbers of examples, so perhaps a few more of those would be interesting. Cold/Heat environmental resistance is probably the single biggest, so perhaps hold off on more of those. Or introduce different ones like, idk, Storm Born (electricity resistance and bonus to predicting the weather).

Liberty's Edge

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AnimatedPaper wrote:
At least, I think they'll have cheek pouches. Can't imagine why they wouldn't.

It's been confirmed that they will. I'd put this in a 'General Utility' category, the same as I would Lizardfolk's 15 foot swim speed Heritage.


Going with that list, I'm going to predict some predictions. Going with 4 heritages per ancestry. First one is the default I suppose.

Kobolds. Darkvision, 6hp, 25 feet.
-Retreat action once a day
-Elemental Resistance
-Claws
-Trap smith

Catfolk. Low Light vision, 6hp, 30ft
-Cat's luck
-Extra speed when striding in certain conditions
-Claw attack
-Climb speed

Tengu. Low Light vision. 6hp. 25ft. Beak attack
-Linguist
-Big nose (limited scent)
-Claw attack
-Glide

Orcs. Darkvision, 6hp, 25ft.
-Bonus HP. Probably also trained in light armor
-Limited Scent
-Resitance to poison and bad food
-An environmental bonus

Ratfolk. Darkvision, 6hp, 25ft.
-Cheek pouch
-Limited Scent
-Tinker
-Cornered Fury

Edit: as far as the heritages, I think they all just give darkvision. I want to think they also give the interesting stuff, like Aasimar's light, Teifling's darkness, Duskwalker's negative resistance and immunities to undead effects, Changeling's resistance to sleep and dreams, and Dhampir's blood of the night, but I think those are all Ancestry feats.

Actually, that raises an interesting point. If they do give darkvision, do you think you get a bonus ancestry feat if your ancestry already has darkvision?

Second edit: Upon rereading the Character Guide ancestries, I may be underpricing these ancestries. I set them to be around what the core ancestries and Shoonies are powerwise, but Hobgoblins, Leshy, and Iruxi all have a little bit extra.

I'll leave them as is, but perhaps Orcs will have 8hp, and all Ratfolk get cheek pouches, all Tengu get to be linguists, and so on.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
At least, I think they'll have cheek pouches. Can't imagine why they wouldn't.
It's been confirmed that they will. I'd put this in a 'General Utility' category, the same as I would Lizardfolk's 15 foot swim speed Heritage.

Fair enough. I have "movement speed" as its own category, along with the Various climb speeds, but "utility" works just as well.

It's not like these are actual categories, just my own notes.

Liberty's Edge

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I'm pretty sure, based on the Bestiary, Catfolk are a Speed 30 ancestry like Elves. I'd also bet good money that Orcs are a 10 HP Ancestry (though I suspect the others actually all might be 6).

Other than that, your suppositions are mostly plausible, though as I noted in my previous post, I think ratfolk have access to a bite attack, and I'd bet Catfolk's speed bonus is already accounted for in their baseline stats, and they'll instead have a 'catfall' Heritage reducing falling damage. I'm also not sure at all that kobolds will have claws, indeed I'd be inclined to bet against it.

Any or all of the options you list might also be Feats, of course.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'm pretty sure, based on the Bestiary, Catfolk are a Speed 30 ancestry like Elves. I'd also bet good money that Orcs are a 10 HP Ancestry (though I suspect the others actually all might be 6).

Other than that, your suppositions are mostly plausible, though as I noted in my previous post, I think ratfolk have access to a bite attack, and I'd bet Catfolk's speed bonus is already accounted for in their baseline stats, and they'll instead have a 'catfall' Heritage reducing falling damage. I'm also not sure at all that kobolds will have claws, indeed I'd be inclined to bet against it.

Any or all of the options you list might also be Feats, of course.

Agreed on catfolk, that's why I listed them as 30 ft speed in my post.

Disagree on Orcs. Giving them 10hp, darkvision, and normal speed as their baseline is pretty far outside what the other ancestries get, especially since Str/Wis bonus seems likely as well. Hobgoblins are slightly OP compared to core races, and they only get 8hp and got stuck with Con and Int as their bonuses. But if Orcs got 10hp as part of their heritage, that woud be back into normal.

Ratfolk I agree RE bite. I missed that on their beast entry. That might even be their default if cheek pouches are just something all Ratfolk have.

Kobolds I agree. I'm actually not wholly certain where I got claws from, aside from an obscure article Wizard posted in the waning days of 3.5. I blame the Easter tamales. Any of the suggestions you had in your post upthread might work instead, though glide seems likeliest as a heritage.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
AnimatedPaper wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'm pretty sure, based on the Bestiary, Catfolk are a Speed 30 ancestry like Elves. I'd also bet good money that Orcs are a 10 HP Ancestry (though I suspect the others actually all might be 6).

Other than that, your suppositions are mostly plausible, though as I noted in my previous post, I think ratfolk have access to a bite attack, and I'd bet Catfolk's speed bonus is already accounted for in their baseline stats, and they'll instead have a 'catfall' Heritage reducing falling damage. I'm also not sure at all that kobolds will have claws, indeed I'd be inclined to bet against it.

Any or all of the options you list might also be Feats, of course.

Agreed on catfolk, that's why I listed them as 30 ft speed in my post.

Disagree on Orcs. Giving them 10hp, darkvision, and normal speed as their baseline is pretty far outside what the other ancestries get, especially since Str/Wis bonus seems likely as well. Hobgoblins are slightly OP compared to core races, and they only get 8hp and got stuck with Con and Int as their bonuses. But if Orcs got 10hp as part of their heritage, that woud be back into normal.

Ratfolk I agree RE bite. I missed that on their beast entry. That might even be their default if cheek pouches are just something all Ratfolk have.

Kobolds I agree. I'm actually not wholly certain where I got claws from, aside from an obscure article Wizard posted in the waning days of 3.5. I blame the Easter tamales. Any of the suggestions you had in your post upthread might work instead, though glide seems likeliest as a heritage.

Con/Int is great though, the free bonus means that they have a boost to both the HP stat and either physical attack stat, Intelligence is generically useful to get an extra skill and contributes to your ability to earn an income. The only thing they don't want to do is Cha or Wis casting.

Liberty's Edge

I could see Orcs getting 8 HP for balance reasons, but not less than that for thematic ones. That'd be consistent with Hobgoblins, and thus seems plausible to me.

Liberty's Edge

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If you're looking for feedback I think that "Bulk/Container Features" would be a good way to sort the Leshy and Ratfolk abilities and I imagine we are PROBABLY going to see more Ancestries with things like this, even for Core ones such as Dwarf which is still seemingly lacking the "Can carry more" Ancestry Feat that I honestly though would have been included in the CRB.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah I wouldn't mind more variants on the Leshy item hiding ability, though ofc I want it to not have too much distribution overall.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if in addition to opening a line of ancestry feats, the universal heritages were focused primarily on the damage resistances of the creature type they link to.

In general there's a lot that can be done with ancestry feats for them, one option I see and brought up in another thread is having feats for different bloodlines, and having 'ethnicity like' requirements to take them, so you might have a feat eventually introduced for Tieflings that grants them Oni-like abilities, with a requirement that your fiendish heritage must be Oni.

This would be a great way of projecting differences in heritage type, without actually having to do separate heritages for different kinds of tieflings and such, or having to future proof specific bloodlines into the initial feat or something.

Then they can just fill out the options later as material in future books- like say, a lost omens book about the whole Tian Xia region would be a good home for feats that only Tiefling whose backstories say they're descended from Oni can take.

I actually proposed this solution as a way to grant Witch Patrons more weight without removing abstract Patrons entirely- just create feats that require a certain Patron to take and let it be defined purely by backstory.

Homebrew settings can translate as needed with the knowledge that feats with differing reqs weren't designed to be used together. They can be careful to provide plenty of options that don't have such requirements at every level, so that not everyone has to play the "My ____ is defined" game.

It's stupidly elegant and it totally caught me off guard when LOCG did it with all those ethnicity.


Themetricsystem wrote:
If you're looking for feedback I think that "Bulk/Container Features" would be a good way to sort the Leshy and Ratfolk abilities and I imagine we are PROBABLY going to see more Ancestries with things like this, even for Core ones such as Dwarf which is still seemingly lacking the "Can carry more" Ancestry Feat that I honestly though would have been included in the CRB.

Well, like I said, the list was more for my own mental organization than an actual list. I make lists and spreadsheets when provoked, and got curious about how they all broke down. The original groupings I started with looked very different than what I posted here; when it became obvious that I had to split up various groups for easier tracking (like perception bonuses, mental skill bonuses, and vision upgrades), or when there just wasn't enough examples to keep some things separate like Active Offense and Active Defense, I changed it up a bit.

But definitely good point about dwarves! I can also see a Goblin ancestry feat that allows you to carry 1L object hidden on your person. Call the feat "Don't Ask".


Yeah just took a notice and hobgoblin get more goodies as base ancestery, dwarf im not sure if the free clan dagger counts? maybe cause their uncommon all three gain slight edge?

Also that made me wonder how sub-heritages will work out will devil tiefling be aviable through a tiefling avatism feat that has to be selected at first level or more like way humans have dragon spit and nidal stuff.


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Reziburno25 wrote:
maybe cause their uncommon all three gain slight edge?

I thought that too, but Shoonies, who are rare, are right in line with core ancestries. They get what appears to be the base of 6hp/25ft/Low-Light vision, and Blunt Nose as their extra.

At the end of the day, the LOCG ones aren't THAT much stronger, and their existence widens the available options when designing new ancestries. It's probably okay that the supplemental ancestries are a bit stronger out of the box, as the core ancestries are going to get more support and more options throughout the lifetime of the game, and thus more versatility.


I came across a blog series by Rob Lundeen, one of the developers, and he said 8hp is the "default", not 6 like I'd been assuming. In fairness, half the core ancestries, plus Shoonies, have 6 hp so it seemed reasonable to assume that was the base.

So Orcs will defientely have at least 8hp out of the box. DMW might even be right about them having 10.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

That is interesting, I wonder why so many of the core ancestries have reduced base HP relative to the standard, I don't think they're weak or anything though.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
The-Magic-Sword wrote:
That is interesting, I wonder why so many of the core ancestries have reduced base HP relative to the standard, I don't think they're weak or anything though.

The most obvious connection I can see is that your HP is modified by your size and/or con modifier:

All of the 6 HP races are either small or have a con penalty, while the two small races with a con bonus have 8 HP like all of the medium races except dwarves, who have a con bonus and 10 HP. Only hobgoblins deviate from this relationship at all.

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