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With Band of Bravos stream having a Tengu it's possible to see that the base stats are not the same as it was in first edition.
Roark Thunderbird have
17HP
10STR/18DEX/12CON/12INT/10WIS/16CHA
Because of the spread of stats it does not look like it used the optional 2 flaws for one boost.
So I believe that the new stat spread is +DEX/INT with -STR (could be -WIS but I doubt).
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I'd bet they kept the -Con (fragile bones being heavily bird associated), with one of the bonuses just shifting from Wis to Cha (which is probably more appropriate in terms of their portrayal).
Those stats still make perfect sense with that Ancestry stat lineup (you can then use the floating +2 from Ancestry to counteract the -2 Con).
That is interesting, I wonder why so many of the core ancestries have reduced base HP relative to the standard, I don't think they're weak or anything though.The most obvious connection I can see is that your HP is modified by your size and/or con modifier:
All of the 6 HP races are either small or have a con penalty, while the two small races with a con bonus have 8 HP like all of the medium races except dwarves, who have a con bonus and 10 HP. Only hobgoblins deviate from this relationship at all.
Hit Points: This is a baseline of 8; certain weak ancestries might warrant 6 Hit Points, while tough ancestries warrant 10 Hit Points.
Size: This seems to be always Small or Medium, as in Pathfinder First Edition. Larger or smaller ancestries aren’t impossible, but pose adventuring challenges.
Speed: This is a base of 25 feet. Ancestries might be a little slower or a little faster than this, but even a 5-foot adjustment in either direction is pretty significant.
Ability Boosts: This is probably a benefit to one physical ability score (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution), one mental ability score (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma), and one free boost, but this varies. An ancestry with only 6 Hit Points base shouldn’t have a boost to Constitution, as that’s not internally consistent.
Ability Flaw: This can be a single flaw to any of the ability scores. It’s never one that’s getting a boost. An ancestry with 10 Hit Points base shouldn’t have a flaw to Constitution, as that’s not internally consistent, either.
Having read that, I kind of feel like halflings should have had 8 HP. But it’s well enough.
Hmmm, a thought, not quite on topic but if paizo does another advanced race guide, or I suppose advanced ancestry guide, what changes do you think we will see in the lineup? What groups might have lost there luster since then and what new ones might replace them?
Most of the featured races are now heritages for a start. Of the 16, 3 are confirmed to be heritages, and another 5 almost certainly are (the 4 geniekin and Drow), and Fetchlings might be as well. Plus Goblins are now Common.
From the uncommon, another 4 of 14 are likely heritages (or confirmed in the case of Changelings). Of the remaining, and in light of some discussions going on in the General forum, we might see Vishyanka getting the boot.
I think it'll be organized: the 6 common ancestries, with all but halflings getting their appropriate "same, but EVIL and UNDERGROUND" heritage, 6-8 uncommon ancestries, and the same number of rare ancestries. These will be mostly the same as PF1, but with Shoonies, Leshy, and Iruxi added in. And then like 15 heritages that apply to anything, covering planar scions, changelings, werecreatures, and probably other ones I'm not thinking of. Androids maybe?
Dhampir have negative healing.
A new trait called Lineage on the heritages feats, for Dhampir this is for Moroi and Nosferatu is on it, so this is how they will give Tieflings and Aasimar the options to have origins from Devils and Archons respectively.
Dhampir a 17th ancestry feat, to cast 7th Vampire Exsanguination.
Fetchlings are almost certanly not a heritage, every heratige in the bestiary has the human tag as well as it's own, fetchlings just have the fetchling tag, which makes sense seeing as they are a distinct population rather than a variation that arises from other groups
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Fetchlings are almost certanly not a heritage, every heratige in the bestiary has the human tag as well as it's own, fetchlings just have the fetchling tag, which makes sense seeing as they are a distinct population rather than a variation that arises from other groups
Fetchling are descended from humans so are very likely going to be Planar Scions.
What Bestiary are you finding them in? A certain AP? They're not in Bestiary 1.
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Fetchlings are almost certanly not a heritage, every heratige in the bestiary has the human tag as well as it's own, fetchlings just have the fetchling tag, which makes sense seeing as they are a distinct population rather than a variation that arises from other groupsFetchling are descended from humans so are very likely going to be Planar Scions.
What Bestiary are you finding them in? A certain AP? They're not in Bestiary 1.
In the page read-through of the 2E Bestiary 2, posted by The Gaming Gang. They have the "Fetchling" and "Shadow" traits.
Their text also describes them as being "no longer human," and they even have a unique name they call themselves. They're clearly no longer in the same vein as tieflings and aasimars now.
Big difference between Fetchlings and Aasimar, Tieflings, Changelings, Dhampir, etc. is that Fetchlings became the way they are as a society of people who were trapped in the shadow plane, where as the latter are just a function of individual births.
A tiefling might grow up not knowing any other tieflings, and a changeling *probably* grows up that way.
It would be interesting if they also added regional heritages to an Advanced Ancestry Guide. Cultural heritages instead of physical ones, I mean.
Yeah Fetchlings are certainly (eventually) going to be their own thing
It would be interesting if they also added regional heritages to an Advanced Ancestry Guide. Cultural heritages instead of physical ones, I mean.
I think thats already covered by the ethnicity feats from the LOCG
Those are fine, but I think they can go farther with the concept.
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Catfolk: Dex, Cha bonuses, Wis flaw.
Kobolds: Dex, Cha bonuses, Con flaw.
Orcs: Str bonus, free bonus, no flaw.
Ratfolk: Dex, Int bonuses, Str flaw.
Tengu: Dex bonus, free bonus, no flaw.
I'm surprised but pleased by the new variation in stat assignments. Upon reflection, having a stat, free, and no flaw seems like an obvious outgrowth of the Human stat assignments.
Yup, they are from today’s panel on the APG.
Are those official?
If so, sweet, I'm totally on board with those distributions (okay, kobolds having no Str penalty is weird...though perhaps appropriate given the 'tiny dragon' thing, I'm completely sold on the rest, though).
Agreed on Kobold. I know they had a Con penalty in 3.-, but I thought the Str penalty was more iconic to the ancestry.
It's interesting that Catfolk have the same Abiity boost/flaws as Goblins. I was curious if they'd switch it up to avoid a duplicate this soon, but it was bound to happen eventually, might as well be now. Actually I guess there are two, with Shoonies and Kobold also the same.
...Great. Now I want to make a spreadsheet with the existing combinations and throw homebrew at the untouched options.
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Well, let's examine that. Spoilered for being long and somewhat off topic:
+Free, +Free (Humans)
+Str, +Int (Nobody)
+Str, +Wis (Lizardfolk with -Int)
+Str, +Cha (Nobody)
+Str, Free (Orcs)
+Dex, +Int (Elves with -Con, Ratfolk with -Str)
+Dex, + Wis (Halflings with -Str)
+Dex, +Cha (Goblins and Catfolk with -Wis, Kobolds and Shoony with -Con)
+Dex, Free (Tengu)
+Con, +Int (Hobgoblins with -Wis)
+Con, +Wis (Dwarves with -Cha, Leshies with -Int)
+Con, +Cha (Gnomes with -Str)
+Con, +Free (Nobody)
+Int, +Free (Nobody)
+Wis, +Free (Nobody)
+Cha, +Free (Nobody)
So, let's see what that data means in terms of what number of Ancestries have what bonuses:
Str: 2
Dex: 8
Con: 4
Int: 3
Wis: 4
Cha: 5
And in terms of penalties:
Str: 3
Dex: 0
Con: 3
Int: 2
Wis: 3
Cha: 1
So, we have a distinct lack of +Str Ancestries, and are pretty full up on +Dex ones (in particular, we do not need more +Dex, +Cha Ancestries unless legacy reasons absolutely demand them), and the specific combo of +Con, +Wis is probably not needed again either. Most other combos could be good to see, with the +Str/Int and +Str/Cha ones being most urgent.
What we need in general are more Str and Int bonuses, more Cha penalties, and especially more Dex penalties. More Con and Wis would also be fine (though preferably not together) and another Int penalty wouldn't be the end of the world. Str, Con, and Wis penalties are probably a bit overdone at the moment and we should probably skip them for a while.
We could also, obviously, use +X, +Free for the four stats that don't yet have such an Ancestry. That'd be cool, and I could see it for, say, Androids with Int or Kitsune with Cha pretty readily (though both could also easily have two bonuses and a penalty, of course).
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Kitsune as +Cha, +Free makes some sense. I wonder though, if ancestries with a pretty significant advantage core to their identity as an ancestry (e.g. Strix have wings) couldn't be balanced by something like +Fixed, +Free, -Fixed.
+Str, +Int (Nobody)
Wonder if this is gonna be a thing in 2e too. Throughout the whole life of 1e I think there were like three str/int race options ever, all of which were pretty obscure choices... and one of them got their int bonus errata'd away for some reason.
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Kitsune as +Cha, +Free makes some sense. I wonder though, if ancestries with a pretty significant advantage core to their identity as an ancestry (e.g. Strix have wings) couldn't be balanced by something like +Fixed, +Free, -Fixed.
Honestly, even +Fixed, +Free is a downgrade from Humans and creates some design space on the chassis (enough to give Orcs Darkvision while also having 8-10 HP, for example).
It's probably not enough for wings, at least on its own, but I'd say we're more likely to see Heritage and/or Ancestry Feat 'sacrificed' (or, more likely, options for flightless Strix with a Heritage + Ancestry Feat to make them fly) than we are worse stat totals ala PF1.
Wonder if this is gonna be a thing in 2e too. Throughout the whole life of 1e I think there were like three str/int race options ever, all of which were pretty obscure choices... and one of them got their int bonus errata'd away for some reason.
I really hope not, that's actually one of my favorite options thematically, and I'd be overjoyed to see it get more support.
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Kitsune as +Cha, +Free makes some sense. I wonder though, if ancestries with a pretty significant advantage core to their identity as an ancestry (e.g. Strix have wings) couldn't be balanced by something like +Fixed, +Free, -Fixed.
Ooh, that does sound perfect for Kitsune
The orcs and tengu have me thinking about future ability score templates. What about a fixed boost, a fixed flaw, and two free boosts? Or three fixed boosts and a free flaw? Or, if you want to get really ambitious, four fixed boosts and two free flaws?
Fixed+, Fixed-, Free+,Free+ makes some sense to me for Androids. They're modeled after humans, which explains the two free boosts, but (for example) have incredible mental processing power but have difficulty relating to others.
So you could do +Int, -Cha, +Free, +Free
Kitsune as +Cha, +Free makes some sense. I wonder though, if ancestries with a pretty significant advantage core to their identity as an ancestry (e.g. Strix have wings) couldn't be balanced by something like +Fixed, +Free, -Fixed.
This.
At the very least, I could see +Dex, +Cha, -Con. The Str penalty in 1st Edition never made any sense when many kitsunes are warriors with katanas and scimitars.
And I'd totally flip a table if kobolds end up stronger than kitsunes.
The orcs and tengu have me thinking about future ability score templates. What about a fixed boost, a fixed flaw, and two free boosts? Or three fixed boosts and a free flaw? Or, if you want to get really ambitious, four fixed boosts and two free flaws?
I have a feeling that it'd probably be best to keep flaws fixed and maintain at least one free boost.
Having a free boost ensures that the Ancestry can reasonably hit 18 in the main ability score needed for their class at character creation, even if they have to use the Optional Voluntary Flaws rules to get their flaw stat up there. This is a really nice change from PF1 in how much easier it makes it to play any class with any ancestry.
As for the Flaw, I don't see being able to pick your flaw as something interesting since many would just try to find a way to abuse it.
Fixed Boost+Flaw with 2 free boosts could certainly be interesting, but I'm not sure off the top of my head which ancestries would work best with such a spread. Also imagine that the flaw would either need to be on a physical stat or have both fixed boost/flaw on mental stats - since they'd probably become the default martial race if they could get ancestry boosts on all three physical stats.
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Yeah, I agree that everyone is always gonna keep one free boost. And should. Free boosts are fundamental to how PF2's character creation system works and removing them would be a mistake that I doubt they'd even consider.
Floating flaws are also, IMO, a bad idea...though not one that messes things up in quite the same way.
Most other variations seem possible, though.
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I don't like floating flaws, since everybody is going to put those in whichever they get the least use of between Str, Cha, and Int.
You could theoretically do something like "A flaw to stat A or stat B" though.
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I don't like floating flaws, since everybody is going to put those in whichever they get the least use of between Str, Cha, and Int.
I agree with this but this also highlights the issue with those 3 stats being less important as secondary than Dex, Wis, and Con generally. I really wish they had fixed saving throws to be a choice or based off of 1 of 2 stats (even if it was the Will is the lower of Cha/Wis).
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I agree with this but this also highlights the issue with those 3 stats being less important as secondary than Dex, Wis, and Con generally. I really wish they had fixed saving throws to be a choice or based off of 1 of 2 stats (even if it was the Will is the lower of Cha/Wis).I don't like floating flaws, since everybody is going to put those in whichever they get the least use of between Str, Cha, and Int.
My own House Rule has always been that Will Save is either Wis or Cha, player's choice, but they can only switch choices via retraining. It's always worked pretty well, IMO.
Str and Int need less help, given their obvious uses for everyone (melee attacks + bulk, and extra Trained Skills, respectively).
The more I think about it, the more I like the alternative ability scores variant rules laid out in the Gamemastery Guide. Do you realize that there are no PFS-legal ancestries in first or second edition that come with a Dexterity penalty? It just does way too much.
It kind of works out that a dex penalty basically makes you put one of you floating boosts into dex. Since every +1 matters noticeably, you don't want to start with an 8 Dex since your AC is going to be lower than everybody else's. 10 Dex is workable, but 8 is a major hindrance.
It kind of works out that a dex penalty basically makes you put one of you floating boosts into dex. Since every +1 matters noticeably, you don't want to start with an 8 Dex since your AC is going to be lower than everybody else's. 10 Dex is workable, but 8 is a major hindrance.
Especially considering it takes away AC even if you wear heavy armor. I was going to drop my dex to 8 on my liberator before I realized that.
Kobolds. Darkvision, 6hp, 25 feet.
-Retreat action once a day
-Elemental Resistance
-Claws
-Trap smithCatfolk. Low Light vision, 6hp, 30ft
-Cat's luck
-Extra speed when striding in certain conditions
-Claw attack
-Climb speedTengu. Low Light vision. 6hp. 25ft. Beak attack
-Linguist
-Big nose (limited scent)
-Claw attack
-GlideOrcs. Darkvision, 6hp, 25ft.
-Bonus HP. Probably also trained in light armor
-Limited Scent
-Resitance to poison and bad food
-An environmental bonusRatfolk. Darkvision, 6hp, 25ft.
-Cheek pouch
-Limited Scent
-Tinker
-Cornered FuryEdit: as far as the heritages, I think they all just give darkvision. I want to think they also give the interesting stuff, like Aasimar's light, Teifling's darkness, Duskwalker's negative resistance and immunities to undead effects, Changeling's resistance to sleep and dreams, and Dhampir's blood of the night, but I think those are all Ancestry feats.
Alright, let's see how I did:
Versatile Heritages: Close enough. Dhampir's got a bit more.Kobolds: nailed the basics. 1 heritage I got right. They also got a jaw attack instead of claws. Other stuff was feats.
Catfolk: 8hp and falling damage resist. Surprisingly, 25' speed. Cat's luck was a feat, claws yes, climbing is a feat. No general speed boost.
Tengu: Got the basics. Guessed Glide and claws correct, rest wrong.
Orcs: 10hp. Got bonus HP, and there are actually 3 enviro bonus heritages. No scent or poison resistance.
Ratfolk: Lowlight instead of Dark. Scent and Darkvision are heritages; Tinker and Cheek pouch are both feats.