Simulacrum and shapeshifters.


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

Something that occured to me and I'm wondering how others see it. If you have a natural shapeshifter say a succubus and you make a simulacrum of it in an alternate form does it have that form? That is . . .

Succubus + simulacrum = simulacrum of a succubus.
Succubus in human form + simulacrum of that human form = ?

1) That human form.
2) The succubus's natural form.
3) The spell fails.
4) Something else.

To add to the conflict if you use lesser simulacrum the simulacrum has no magical abilities so would you get a normal human with the mind of a succubus, a succubus with no magic powers or as above would the spell just fail?

My inclination is whatever form a being is in when you make a simulacrum of it you get that form possibily without the ability to resume their natural one if you used lesser simulacrum. However I'm curious what others think.


I think it would depend on the caster's understanding of the subject. If the caster felt that the Succubus was the Queen of Thisland, then I think the simulacrum of the Queen would have all of the known abilities of the Queen (modified as the GM feels is appropriate to the simulacrum's HD), and none of the Succubus' abilities since he is unaware of them. That would generally indicate a loss of the shapeshifting abilities.

If the caster knew the subject was a Succubus disguised as the Queen, then it could have the true appearance of the Succubus...if the caster knows that appearance. Otherwise, it probably has the 'true' appearance of the Queen since that is the image the caster was using for the simulacrum's creation.

And if the caster thought the Queen was secretly a Gold Dragon in human disguise...I'd give it the same abilities as the human queen and give it no draconic features at all. If the caster mis-identifies a creature the caster shouldn't benefit from that. Only when they have accurate information should they get more than what can be seen.

Scarab Sages

So while abilites may vary the initial form would remain that of the queen as that was what you were sculpting?


I cant contribute to the core question, but I would like to offer something to the cauldron to see if it can lead to an answer.

Have you ever read alchemical simulacrum?

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo-a lchemist-discoveries/alchemical-simulacrum-su/

((Benefit: The alchemist gains the ability to create a lesser simulacrum. This works like the lesser simulacrum spell, except it costs 100 gp in alchemical materials per Hit Die of the simulacrum, requires 24 hours to grow, and decays into inert flesh rather than ice or snow if killed. The created simulacrum is a creature, not a supernatural effect.))

now lets get deeper....

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo-a lchemist-discoveries/doppelganger-simulacrum-su

((Benefit: The alchemist learns how to create a simulacrum, a soulless duplicate of his body, into which he can project his consciousness. As a full-round action, he may shift his consciousness from his current body to any one of his available doppelganger simulacra, which must be on the same plane as the alchemist. If killed in a simulacrum, he transfers to his own body automatically; if killed in his own body, he is dead. Unused simulacra (including his abandoned original body) appear to be lifeless corpses, though they do not decay. Creating a duplicate costs 1,000 gp in alchemical materials and requires 1 week to grow. The created simulacrum is a creature, not a supernatural effect.))


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In 3.5 parts removed form a creature returned to their natural form, and I'd guess it's the same for PF (I can't find anything one way or another). Since you need some of those parts for polymorph you'd get one of their natural form. Simulacrum with eschew material components/false focus is a whole nother can of worms.

Scarab Sages

deuxhero wrote:
In 3.5 parts removed form a creature returned to their natural form, and I'd guess it's the same for PF (I can't find anything one way or another). Since you need some of those parts for polymorph you'd get one of their natural form. Simulacrum with eschew material components/false focus is a whole nother can of worms.

Pathfinder simulacrum no longer requires bodyparts just snow, rubies and dsguise talent (not even sculpt snowman).

Simulacrum
Components V, S, M (ice sculpture of the target plus powdered rubies worth 500 gp per HD of the simulacrum)

Lesser Simulacrum
Components V, S, M (an ice sculpture of the target plus powdered rubies worth 50 gp per HD of the simulacrum)


What happens if you make a simulacrum of a succubus in the form of an elf?

In the form of a gorilla?

A fruit bat?

An otyugh?

A tree?

A writing desk?

A perfect sphere?


Since Simulacrum and Lesser Simulacrum are both cast upon a sculpture, they wind up looking like that sculpture. The only way they can look like something else is via the spell Sculpt Simulacrum or if the sim's abilities include shapeshifting or other way to look different.

/cevah


Note that the sculpture must be "of the target" to be a suitable component. One cannot simply make arbitrary alterations to the sculpture.

What "of the target" means is a matter of debate.

Scarab Sages

And the origin of my question if you sculpt a shapeshifter in shapeshifted form knowing they're a shapeshifter do you get the sculpted form. It is of the target at the time of sculpting. Alternatively is it of the targets natural form transforming into that shape regardless of what you sculpted for does it fail.

I'm going with the what you sculpt determines form I think.

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