Available Movement in a Full Round Action, Bull Rush, Quick Bull Rush, Siegebreaker2, & Giant Fist Gauntlets


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Dark Archive

you need something like this

Rolling Flurry (Ex): When a battle dancer uses her brawler’s flurry, she must move 5 feet before each melee attack or combat maneuver. If she is unable to move 5 feet, she can’t attempt any further attacks or combat maneuvers. She can’t exceed her maximum speed. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity if the brawler would be able to take a 5-foot step normally; if she would be unable to (for instance, if she were in difficult terrain), the movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless she succeeds at the appropriate Acrobatics checks. While using this ability, she can still take her normal 5-foot step before or after making her attacks.


If I have Pummeling Charge, and then perform a charge while under the effects of Haste, I would have 120' of Available Movement, right? You said so yourself several times.

So, in the other thread, you guys said my build doesn't work and I think you've just proved that it actually does work, because with Giant Fist Gauntlets equipped, and Pummeling Charge (which gives a Full Attack at the end of a Charge) I can charge 10' and then have 110' to Bull Rush/Overrun as a Free Action with each unarmed strike. And with the final attack each round, you just Bull Rush them 5' and don't follow, then next round charge 10' and do it again. Or simply charge a new target and bull rush/overrun them for however much Available Movement I didn't use in the charge, e.g. if I charge someone 40' away, I'd still have 80' to Bull Rush/Overrun.

Thanks!


Right. Just keep in mind that your proposed build only works while charging and using unarmed strikes, having both Pummeling Charge and the Giant Fist Gauntlets activated. Since OP wanted a shield build their current idea doesn't work though. You may want to clear that up.

I don't want to drag drama into the original thread, so I'll say it here instead of there. It really isn't a 50/50 split. Out of everyone I've ever seen talk about Shield slam, you and bbangerter are the second and third persons to argue this point. That's more of a 3/97 split in my experience.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:
If I have Pummeling Charge, and then perform a charge while under the effects of Haste, I would have 120' of Available Movement, right? You said so yourself several times.

Setting aside that I haven't said anything about Pummeling Charge or Haste... assuming a Base Speed of 30 you would then be able to move 120'. I'd allow any unused portion of that to be "available movement" for following bull rushed targets, but some GMs might take the text of Pummeling Charge to require all the attacks to be made after your movement has ended.

Ryze Kuja wrote:
So, in the other thread, you guys said my build doesn't work and I think you've just proved that it actually does work, because with Giant Fist Gauntlets equipped, and Pummeling Charge (which gives a Full Attack at the end of a Charge) I can charge 10' and then have 110' to Bull Rush/Overrun as a Free Action with each unarmed strike. And with the final attack each round, you just Bull Rush them 5' and don't follow, then next round charge 10' and do it again.

You'd have to push them back at least 10' with the last attack, since you need to move at least 10' to charge... but otherwise, yes that should work.


@Wonderstell

I looked up the past discussions about this in the Paizo Forums and Reddit and it's about 50/50. I even contacted James Jacobs about this and he declined to provide an answer, but rather said "you do whatever you want at YOUR table." You can't say it's a 3/97 split just because you've only seen 3 dissenting opinions. The main discrepancy between your camp and my camp is how we're defining a 5ft step as "available movement".

I, as well as others, define a 5ft step as a Miscellaneous Action, and a Miscellaneous Action has nothing to do with a Move Action, Movement Speed, or Available Movement in a round. A 5ft step is just something you can do if you haven't taken any Movement in the round. Therefore, due to this definition as a 5ft Step being a Miscellaneous Action, I view this 5ft Step as counting towards "Available Movement" as an impossibility. You guys obviously disagree, and that's fine. But suggesting that I don't have reading comprehension skills because we disagree on that is uncalled for, in my opinion.

@CBD

You and Name Violation both argued that my build doesn't work in the other thread, hence why we started this one in the first place. Name Violation started it by saying "objection pending - that's not how it works" and then you piggybacked on what he was saying.

Edit:
@ To whom it may concern

The Bull Rush rules in 3.5 were performed as a Standard Action in the middle of a Move Action and the Bull Rush started when you physically moved into the opponent's square (similar to an Overrun) and the Bull Rusher didn't have the option of not moving with the target, iirc, and Pathfinder changed that to allowing you to move with the target or not, at the Bull Rusher's option, and they changed it so that you can perform a Bull Rush as a Standard Action (before starting a Move Action) and consumes the Bull Rusher's Available Movement. Slightly different from 3.5, but it's an important distinction to make. That's probably why when I envision a Bull Rush, I envision it with your full Move Speed.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
I even contacted James Jacobs about this and he declined to provide an answer, but rather said "you do whatever you want at YOUR table."

Well yeah. Both he and Mark Seifter got tired of their AMA's turning into rules discussions full of people who didn't like their answers. A refusal to answer such questions is to be expected.

Ryze Kuja wrote:
But suggesting that I don't have reading comprehension skills because we disagree on that is uncalled for, in my opinion.

I'm honestly disappointed you didn't attempt to answer it. It would have helped.


Wonderstell wrote:


I'm honestly disappointed you didn't attempt to answer it. It would have helped.

No, I consider a 5ft Step as a Miscellaneous Action, and therefore it is an impossibility to be considered as "Available Movement". A 5ft Step is just something that you can do if you haven't performed any other movement in the round. You disagree with that, and that's fine.

It's not a reading comprehension issue. It's a definitions issue. But I'm not telling you that you have a reading comprehension issue just because we define things differently, and therein lies the difference.


Wonderstell wrote:

Right. Just keep in mind that your proposed build only works while charging and using unarmed strikes, having both Pummeling Charge and the Giant Fist Gauntlets activated. Since OP wanted a shield build their current idea doesn't work though. You may want to clear that up.

You can perform a Brawler's Flurry with a Shield because a Shield is considered a Close Weapon, and Brawlers can perform a Brawlers Flurry with Close Weapons, Monk Weapons, or Unarmed attacks.

And it doesn't matter what the Brawler has for a weapon, or whatever they're holding, tbqh. They can perform a Brawler's Flurry with their hands full because they can use Feet and Knees, just not their Fists or Elbows because their hands are full. Depending on what they're holding, an argument could be made that Elbows might also be used even though their hands are considered "full", but that would be a GM call on a case-by-case basis.


And I'm pretty sure we talked about Pummeling Style/Charge must be made with unarmed strikes only, because we discussed strategies for targets with and without DR. If his target has DR he can bypass, or has no DR, then he wants to be able to Shield Bash, but if his target has DR that he cannot bypass, then he'll make all his attacks as unarmed strikes for Pummeling Style. I think he just wants the shield for character concept stuff.


I think a charge is a special move that uses up your movement to do it. I have not seen much to say you can charge then move again after a pummeling.

But more to the point:

You can charge and make a full attack or flurry of blows at the end of your charge as part of the charge action. You can use Pummeling Charge in this way only if all of your attacks qualify for using Pummeling Style against a single target.

What you're describing is not a charge action it's a bullrush AND over run action. And since ALL attacks must be part of the charge, NONE of those attacks after it qualify for using pummeling style as part of the second sentence because because they are not part of the charge.

I think you're reading half a sentence and skipping the other half and the second sentence that follows


He IS doing a Brawler's Flurry at the end of a charge. The free Bull Rushes come from an item, Giant's Fist Gauntlets, which give a free Bull Rush whenever you make an Unarmed Attack. The free Overrun is an ability from Siegebreaker, which allows you a free Overrun whenever you Bull Rush.


Except if you're doing other maneuvers you're no longer doing a charge. So you're no getting any more attacks. So its not going to work. It has to happen as part of the charge action at best this works once then you're done.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
I'm honestly disappointed you didn't attempt to answer it. It would have helped.
No, I consider a 5ft Step as a Miscellaneous Action, and therefore it is an impossibility to be considered as "Available Movement". A 5ft Step is just something that you can do if you haven't performed any other movement in the round. You disagree with that, and that's fine.

Right. May I ask what your definition of "Available Movement" is? One or two of your own sentences would be enough. No need to quote a bunch of different rules we've already seen in this thread.

Ryze Kuja wrote:
You can perform a Brawler's Flurry with a Shield because a Shield is considered a Close Weapon, and Brawlers can perform a Brawlers Flurry with Close Weapons, Monk Weapons, or Unarmed attacks.

Hm? Yeah?

But your build doesn't have pounce, right? So if they want to charge and get that available movement, then they must use unarmed strikes since Pummeling Charge doesn't work with shields.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:

@CBD

You and Name Violation both argued that my build doesn't work in the other thread

Nope. Never happened. I disagreed with various rule interpretations you posted, not a build.

Specifically, your insistence that your "available movement" is something other than 5' in situations where the only movement you are allowed to take is a 5' step. The 'it is a Miscellaneous Action' argument is meaningless to me. Action type categorization doesn't change the fact that 'only movement allowed' and 'available movement' mean the same thing. If the rules say you can only take a 5' step then you CAN'T move 30'.


Wonderstell wrote:


Right. May I ask what your definition of "Available Movement" is? One or two of your own sentences would be enough. No need to quote a bunch of different rules we've already seen in this thread.

Your Available Movement is whatever you haven't used from your Movement Speed in a given round.

For example, if you have 30ft Move Speed and Haste, you would have a total of 60ft Move Speed; at the beginning of your turn, let's say that you want to only move 20ft to get into a better position to shoot a bow or cast a spell, or whatever, you would have 60ft in Available Movement at the start of your round; now let's say you start a Move Action and move the 1st square, so your Available Movement would become 55ft, and then you move a 2nd square, now it's 50ft Available Movement, move into a 3rd square, but this square has difficult terrain so you're charged 10ft of Available Movement to move 5ft through the difficult terrain, so now you've moved 15ft but have 40ft available movement, and then move one last square which is also through difficult terrain, for a total of 20ft moved, and you still have 30ft of available movement. Now you use your Standard Action to shoot your bow, and even though you still have 30ft of available movement left, you have no actions left that you could use it (unless you have Shot on the Run), so your turn is essentially over unless you want to use a Swift Action or save it for an Immediate Action later.

Dark Archive

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:


Right. May I ask what your definition of "Available Movement" is? One or two of your own sentences would be enough. No need to quote a bunch of different rules we've already seen in this thread.

Your Available Movement is whatever you haven't used from your Movement Speed in a given round.

For example, if you have 30ft Move Speed and Haste, you would have a total of 60ft Move Speed; at the beginning of your turn, let's say that you want to only move 20ft to get into a better position to shoot a bow or cast a spell, or whatever, you would have 60ft in Available Movement at the start of your round; now let's say you start a Move Action and move the 1st square, so your Available Movement would become 55ft, and then you move a 2nd square, now it's 50ft Available Movement, move into a 3rd square, but this square has difficult terrain so you're charged 10ft of Available Movement to move 5ft through the difficult terrain, so now you've moved 15ft but have 40ft available movement, and then move one last square which is also through difficult terrain, for a total of 20ft moved, and you still have 30ft of available movement. Now you use your Standard Action to shoot your bow, and even though you still have 30ft of available movement left, you have no actions left that you could use it (unless you have Shot on the Run), so your turn is essentially over unless you want to use a Swift Action or save it for an Immediate Action later.

where does it say movement always equals speed?

haste says "All of the hasted creature’s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject’s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed.
is there anything other than move action that says you actually have movement equal to your speed?
if you dont have Movement you dont get a bonus to speed
nothing says having a speed by its self grants movement


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Your Available Movement is whatever you haven't used from your Movement Speed in a given round.

Well alright, that's seems clear enough.

====

Here's a couple of example scenarios and their resolutions with your interpretation.

scenarios:
1.
A human fighter with a speed of 30 ft wants to Bull Rush a goblin. The goblin is hiding behind a corner 30 ft away, so the fighter uses up all their movement with a move action to get adjacent to the goblin. They Bull Rush the goblin, but have no Available Movement left to follow it.

The fighter has moved 30 ft this round, and used 30 ft Available Movement.

2.
The same fighter wants to Bull Rush an adjacent orc. They roll very well and follow the orc 30 ft. The fighter then uses their move action to move an additional 30 ft.

The fighter has moved 60 ft this round, and used 30 ft Available Movement.
They gained 30 ft of movement by taking the actions in the opposite order.

3.
The same fighter notices a bugbear 40 ft away assaulting a tree. The way forward is clear, so the fighter charges the beast and moves 40 ft before making their Bull Rush attempt. They roll well and push the bugbear 20 ft away. They can't follow the bugbear because they've already used up all their Available Movement.

The fighter has moved 40 ft this round, and used 30 ft Available Movement.

***

As you can see, there's a couple of problems that arise when your Available Movement is a separate pool from your actual movement. The third scenario is especially annoying since it's bound to come up rather often. Do you have any thoughts on the matter?


I was going to make a 4th scenario where the fighter had Shield Slam and moved on an AoO outside of their turn. But the description of Shield Slam explicitly states that you can't move with the target unless you spend actions to move.

Shield Slam wrote:
Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.

You can see this as an exception to the normal rules or not. Either way, the build in the other thread does not work (while full-attacking) since they're not spending actions to move.


Wonderstell wrote:

1.
A human fighter with a speed of 30 ft wants to Bull Rush a goblin. The goblin is hiding behind a corner 30 ft away, so the fighter uses up all their movement with a move action to get adjacent to the goblin. They Bull Rush the goblin, but have no Available Movement left to follow it.

The fighter has moved 30 ft this round, and used 30 ft Available Movement.

In this example, the fighter uses all his movement to get adjacent to the Goblin and Bull Rushes him, but can't follow. So this is kosher.

Wonderstell wrote:


2.
The same fighter wants to Bull Rush an adjacent orc. They roll very well and follow the orc 30 ft. The fighter then uses their move action to move an additional 30 ft.

The fighter has moved 60 ft this round, and used 30 ft Available Movement.
They gained 30 ft of movement by taking the actions in the opposite order.

The fighter used all of his available movement during the Bull Rush. He does have a Move Action (to draw a weapon, etc.), but cannot use a Move Action to Move.

Wonderstell wrote:


3.
The same fighter notices a bugbear 40 ft away assaulting a tree. The way forward is clear, so the fighter charges the beast and moves 40 ft before making their Bull Rush attempt. They roll well and push the bugbear 20 ft away. They can't follow the bugbear because they've already used up all their Available Movement.

The fighter has moved 40 ft this round, and used 30 ft Available Movement.

The fighter's move speed is 30ft, so his available movement with a charge would be 60ft. He could charge 40ft and then push the bugbear an additional 20ft.

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Your Available Movement is whatever you haven't used from your Movement Speed in a given round.

So maybe this definition needs to be changed.

Your Available Movement is whatever you haven't used from the Total Amount of Movement you're allowed to make in a given round. Most of the time your Available Movement will be your character's Move Speed, but certain actions, such as Charge or Run, can change how much Available Movement you're allowed to make.


Wonderstell wrote:

I was going to make a 4th scenario where the fighter had Shield Slam and moved on an AoO outside of their turn. But the description of Shield Slam explicitly states that you can't move with the target unless you spend actions to move.

Shield Slam wrote:
Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.
You can see this as an exception to the normal rules or not. Either way, the build in the other thread does not work (while full-attacking) since they're not spending actions to move.

I think a lot of the confusion lies with the copy/paste from 3.5 rules to Pathfinder, and some of the rules that were changed by Pathfinder.

IIRC, a Bull Rush in 3.5 could not be started with a Standard Action, it had to be started with a Move Action by physically moving into an enemy's square, and the Bull Rusher did not have the option to "Not move with" the target; the Bull Rusher was forced to move with the target. So you would start your Move Action, then move wherever you want, and then when you physically entered the space of an enemy, you could then initiate your Bull Rush as a Standard Action during your Move Action, similar to how Overrun works.

However, Pathfinder changed the rules of Bull Rush. They allowed you to start a Bull Rush as a Standard Action that would consume your available movement, and the Bull Rusher would now have the option to move with the target or not.

As far as the Shield Slam text you bolded, you may choose to move with your target if you are able "to take a 5ft step" or "to spend an action to move this turn". So as long as neither of these have happened yet in the round, you can move with the target during a bull rush if you want.

Grand Lodge

Hi
If you use Rolling Flurry instead. Would that solve the problem? And could you use it with shield slam when the archtype states that you don't get shield profiency? I know you could get that with a feat or a dip, but I think that RAI was to not let Rolling Flurry work with shield bashing?

Rolling Flurry (Ex):
When a battle dancer uses her brawler’s flurry, she must move 5 feet before each melee attack or combat maneuver. If she is unable to move 5 feet, she can’t attempt any further attacks or combat maneuvers. She can’t exceed her maximum speed. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity if the brawler would be able to take a 5-foot step normally; if she would be unable to (for instance, if she were in difficult terrain), the movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless she succeeds at the appropriate Acrobatics checks.

While using this ability, she can still take her normal 5-foot step before or after making her attacks.

This alters brawler’s flurry.


Ryze Kuja wrote:

2

The fighter used all of his available movement during the Bull Rush. He does have a Move Action (to draw a weapon, etc.), but cannot use a Move Action to Move.

Let's say the fighter used two actions for movement instead. What you're saying here would mean that they can never double-move since they used up their Available Movement with the first move action. And that doesn't sound right.

=====

Ryze Kuja wrote:
As far as the Shield Slam text you bolded, you may choose to move with your target if you are able "to take a 5ft step" or "to spend an action to move this turn". So as long as neither of these have happened yet in the round, you can move with the target during a bull rush if you want.

That's NOT what the feat text says. You can move with your target because you are using those actions, not because you haven't used them. Incredibly pedantic. And even with that extent of rules-lawyering the build still doesn't work.

When you bull rush your first opponent you're disqualified from taking a 5-foot step since you've moved. When you full-attack with your shield you're no longer able "to spend an action to move this turn" since you've used up your standard+move.
So even under your interpretation it's not possible to bull rush (and follow) more than once with Shield Slam.

OP's current build doesn't work.


@ *Khan*

Technically you're still proficient with shields as weapons since they're part of the close weapon group, so you can flurry with them no problem.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:

So maybe this definition needs to be changed.

Your Available Movement is whatever you haven't used from the Total Amount of Movement you're allowed to make in a given round.

This is the position the 'other side' has taken all along...

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Most of the time your Available Movement will be your character's Move Speed, but certain actions, such as Charge or Run, can change how much Available Movement you're allowed to make.

...and this is the part that you seem to have just made up out of nowhere.

There is no "most of the time" rule. The amount of movement allowed is specified for each action type;

Charge = 2 x Base Speed
Combat Patrol = Base Speed
Full Attack = 5' step

You've made up a rule that you get to replace the 5' available movement on a Full Attack with movement up to Base Speed... but don't want to apply that to actions where you get MORE than your Base Speed in available movement. Just drop the false rule. You get the amount of movement the rules for each action type say you do.

Ryze Kuja wrote:
As far as the Shield Slam text you bolded, you may choose to move with your target if you are able "to take a 5ft step" or "to spend an action to move this turn". So as long as neither of these have happened yet in the round, you can move with the target during a bull rush if you want.

You have changed 'if A or B are available' to 'if A or B have not been used'.

This is only true if either 'A or B' are available EVERY round... which, in fact, they may be. At least, I can't think of any action type or combination that doesn't allow either a 5' step or some other movement.

However, this would actually be adding a new limitation.

On a Charge you would already have spent an action (i.e. the Charge action) to move. So, per your formulation above, an action to move would have already happened that round and thus you would NOT be able to move with the target of your Bull Rush.

Clearly not what the rules intended.


Wonderstell wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:

2

The fighter used all of his available movement during the Bull Rush. He does have a Move Action (to draw a weapon, etc.), but cannot use a Move Action to Move.

Let's say the fighter used two actions for movement instead. What you're saying here would mean that they can never double-move since they used up their Available Movement with the first move action. And that doesn't sound right.

If you do a double move, your available movement would be 30ft for the first move action and 30ft for the second move action. Or if you did a Run for x4 move speed, your available movement would be 120ft.

Wonderstell wrote:

Ryze Kuja wrote:
As far as the Shield Slam text you bolded, you may choose to move with your target if you are able "to take a 5ft step" or "to spend an action to move this turn". So as long as neither of these have happened yet in the round, you can move with the target during a bull rush if you want.

That's NOT what the feat text says. You can move with your target because you are using those actions, not because you haven't used them. Incredibly pedantic. And even with that extent of rules-lawyering the build still doesn't work.

When you bull rush your first opponent you're disqualified from taking a 5-foot step since you've moved. When you full-attack with your shield you're no longer able "to spend an action to move this turn" since you've used up your standard+move.
So even under your interpretation it's not possible to bull rush (and follow) more than once with Shield Slam.

Yeah, this is the confusion between 3.5 and Pathfinder copy/pasting most rules and then changing some of them. Personally, I'd allow that you can still Shield Slam during a flurry and move with the target each time.

wonderstell wrote:


OP's current build doesn't work.

It does according to my interpretation of how a 5ft step and Available Movement works. It still works with your interpretation as long as he charges or uses Pummeling Charge first.


CBDunkerson wrote:


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Most of the time your Available Movement will be your character's Move Speed, but certain actions, such as Charge or Run, can change how much Available Movement you're allowed to make.

...and this is the part that you seem to have just made up out of nowhere.

There is no "most of the time" rule. The amount of movement allowed is specified for each action type;

Of course I made that up out of thin air. Did you read the part where Wonderstell asked me to define it in my own words with 1-2 sentences?


Ryze Kuja wrote:
If you do a double move, your available movement would be 30ft for the first move action and 30ft for the second move action. Or if you did a Run for x4 move speed, your available movement would be 120ft.

Hm. What you're saying here is that our Available Movement is equal to our actual movement in these cases. Which directly contradicts your previous posts.

In example 2, you said the fighter can't move further after their bull rush since they've used up all their Available Movement. Now you're saying that a move action would increase their Available Movement. Meaning, they would be able to move 60 ft.

What's the interaction between Available Movement and someone who uses a move action to move their speed?

===

Ryze Kuja wrote:
It does according to my interpretation of how a 5ft step and Available Movement works. It still works with your interpretation as long as he charges or uses Pummeling Charge first.

But you can't use Pummeling Charge with a shield, and "my" interpretation wouldn't allow it to happen during a normal full-attack either.

And it won't work according to your "interpretation" since it isn't an interpretation. You're ignoring a vital part of the feat text because you don't want it to be true. That's houseruling, and proof that you yourself don't think that it works since you're literally changing the rules to make it work.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
There is no "most of the time" rule. The amount of movement allowed is specified for each action type;
Of course I made that up out of thin air. Did you read the part where Wonderstell asked me to define it in my own words with 1-2 sentences?

That you were asked to use your own words does not change the fact that your own words are the only 'basis' for this 'rule'. Nothing which can even be plausibly interpreted that way exists anywhere in the actual books.

There is no, 'you can always move at least your base speed every round regardless of what other actions you are taking' rule, or anything like it. Indeed, there are rules which directly contradict this idea; "The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step."


Wonderstell wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
If you do a double move, your available movement would be 30ft for the first move action and 30ft for the second move action. Or if you did a Run for x4 move speed, your available movement would be 120ft.

Hm. What you're saying here is that our Available Movement is equal to our actual movement in these cases. Which directly contradicts your previous posts.

In example 2, you said the fighter can't move further after their bull rush since they've used up all their Available Movement. Now you're saying that a move action would increase their Available Movement. Meaning, they would be able to move 60 ft.

What's the interaction between Available Movement and someone who uses a move action to move their speed?

Bull Rush is a Standard Action that is meant to consume the available movement from your Move Speed that round. If you use the Standard Action to Bull Rush, and consume all 30ft from what would be your Move Action, then you're out of options to move, but you still technically have a Move Action because you've only used your Standard Action so far, but this Move Action can only be used for anything other than moving. A strict GM might even disallow that Move Action because you consumed all your movement during the Standard Action.

===

Wonderstell wrote:


Ryze Kuja wrote:
It does according to my interpretation of how a 5ft step and Available Movement works. It still works with your interpretation as long as he charges or uses Pummeling Charge first.

But you can't use Pummeling Charge with a shield, and "my" interpretation wouldn't allow it to happen during a normal full-attack either.

And it won't work according to your "interpretation" since it isn't an interpretation. You're ignoring a vital part of the feat text because you don't want it to be true. That's houseruling, and proof that you yourself don't think that it works since you're literally changing the rules to make it work.

I'm not ignoring or changing anything. I'm not suggesting he can Shield Bash during a Pummeling Charge, I'm suggesting he can Shield Bash/Shield Slam/Bull Rush at the end of a charge. Pummeling Charge requires that all the attacks have to qualify for Pummeling Style, and Pummeling Style requires all unarmed attacks.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
There is no "most of the time" rule. The amount of movement allowed is specified for each action type;
Of course I made that up out of thin air. Did you read the part where Wonderstell asked me to define it in my own words with 1-2 sentences?

That you were asked to use your own words does not change the fact that your own words are the only 'basis' for this 'rule'. Nothing which can even be plausibly interpreted that way exists anywhere in the actual books.

There is no, 'you can always move at least your base speed every round regardless of what other actions you are taking' rule, or anything like it. Indeed, there are rules which directly contradict this idea; "The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step."

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5 foot step? How does Circling Mongoose work then?

Is it because specific rules can break general rules, except Quick Bull Rush isn't allowed to break a general rule?


@CBDunk

How do you reconcile the fact that the specific rules of feats can override general rules of a full attack action in terms of Circling Mongoose and Quick Bull Rush? Why is it in your mind that Circling Mongoose is kosher while Quick Bull Rush isn't? Both of them break the rules of a full attack action, yet you make a distinction where a 5ft step prevents a Quick Bull Rush from full movement while the full movement of a Circling Mongoose does not?


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Bull Rush is a Standard Action that is meant to consume the available movement from your Move Speed that round. If you use the Standard Action to Bull Rush, and consume all 30ft from what would be your Move Action, then you're out of options to move, but you still technically have a Move Action because you've only used your Standard Action so far, but this Move Action can only be used for anything other than moving. A strict GM might even disallow that Move Action because you consumed all your movement during the Standard Action.

...?

It really sounds like you're saying that we must spend a move action to get 30 ft of Available Movement here. Which is the exact opposite of what you've been arguing for until now.

Do we start our turn with 0 or 30 ft of Available Movement?

You've said that if you take a double-move you have 60 ft of Available Movement. It follows that if you take a single move you have 30 ft of Available Movement.
So if I don't take any move I'd have 0 ft of Available Movement, then?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5 foot step?

Yes. I've quoted the rules text stating that several times now.

Ryze Kuja wrote:
How does Circling Mongoose work then?

Exactly as it says it does. Circling Mongoose is a "Full Round action" that allows you to make a Full Attack while also moving 5' before each attack (not to exceed your base speed). It is a different action with different rules. Indeed, look at the "Normal" condition text for Circling Mongoose;

"Normal: A character without this feat is limited to only one 5-foot step during a full attack, taken before, after, or between attacks."

Ryze Kuja wrote:
How do you reconcile the fact that the specific rules of feats can override general rules of a full attack action in terms of Circling Mongoose and Quick Bull Rush? Why is it in your mind that Circling Mongoose is kosher while Quick Bull Rush isn't?

Quick Bull Rush is completely 'kosher'. It allows you to replace your first attack (in ANY action type) with a Bull Rush. That's it. Nothing more. Nothing less. It does not change the available movement for the action type it is used with at all.

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Both of them break the rules of a full attack action, yet you make a distinction where a 5ft step prevents a Quick Bull Rush from full movement while the full movement of a Circling Mongoose does not?

Circling Mongoose specifically states that it changes the normal movement rules. Quick Bull Rush says absolutely nothing about movement. Therefore, your claim that it changes the movement because 'specific rules can break general rules' is a false description of what you are trying to do... there is NO 'specific' movement rule for Quick Bull Rush. What you are trying to do is have a non-existent rule break the general rules.

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