made a chart for everyone
that's with bear damage doubled on crit, see if that's how your GM rules it. But to me precision bow is just better damage, and you don't need to reload. You can see how volley affects damage by looking to the right. 14 wis and 14 str.
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I dont see why you wouldn't double bear damage on crit. The crit rules only make exception to doubling damage that only happens on a crit.
A critical strike doubles the damage of the attack. I believe the argument is that the Bear's support effect isn't part of the attack at all. It's not a bonus to damage, it's not additional damage, it's its own separate thing that the bear does whenever you hit an enemy within the bear's reach.
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I dont see why you wouldn't double bear damage on crit. The crit rules only make exception to doubling damage that only happens on a crit.
"Until the start of your next turn, each time you hit a creature in the bear’s reach with a Strike, the creature takes 1d8 slashing damage from the bear".
We've hit unknown territory about what happens for a crit when the damage comes from another creature. I'm inclined to double it too but I acknowledge that's personal preference and not any rule I can point to.
I dont see why you wouldn't double bear damage on crit. The crit rules only make exception to doubling damage that only happens on a crit."Until the start of your next turn, each time you hit a creature in the bear’s reach with a Strike, the creature takes 1d8 slashing damage from the bear".
We've hit unknown territory about what happens for a crit when the damage comes from another creature. I'm inclined to double it too but I acknowledge that's personal preference and not any rule I can point to.
I think it is one of these "additional damage" scenarios .....
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that's with bear damage doubled on crit, see if that's how your GM rules it. But to me precision bow is just better damage, and you don't need to reload. You can see how volley affects damage by looking to the right. 14 wis and 14 str.
This is totally expected.
It also inherently ignores the advantages the crossbow gets in terms of not needing Str over 10, and other ancillary stuff because it's a pure DPR comparison.
I dont understand the axis. What do all the codes mean?
You answers are in the guide
that's with bear damage doubled on crit, see if that's how your GM rules it. But to me precision bow is just better damage, and you don't need to reload. You can see how volley affects damage by looking to the right. 14 wis and 14 str.This is totally expected.
It also inherently ignores the advantages the crossbow gets in terms of not needing Str over 10, and other ancillary stuff because it's a pure DPR comparison.
You still need strength, so that you can switch to a bludgeoning melee weapon when you come up against a bunch of creatures that are resistant or immune to piercing damage.
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You still need strength, so that you can switch to a bludgeoning melee weapon when you come up against a bunch of creatures that are resistant or immune to piercing damage.
Nobody is immune to Piercing (or any physical damage), and much like Kineticists in PF1, the crossbow Ranger solution to Resistance is doing one big attack that punches right through. Which works fine, for the most part. There are less than 10 creatures in the Bestiary where switching from Piercing to Bludgeoning nets you more than 5 damage.
You still need strength, so that you can switch to a bludgeoning melee weapon when you come up against a bunch of creatures that are resistant or immune to piercing damage.Nobody is immune to Piercing (or any physical damage), and much like Kineticists in PF1, the crossbow Ranger solution to Resistance is doing one big attack that punches right through. Which works fine, for the most part. There are less than 10 creatures in the Bestiary where switching from Piercing to Bludgeoning nets you more than 5 damage.
Lots of things have high physical resistance except against special materials. Special material ammo is expensive.
If you think losing 5 damage per strike is nothing, that's certainly an opinion.
As a ranged Ranger playing Age of Ashes, I have had to switch to Melee several times to be effective. That's despite my Composite Longbow doing substantially more damage on a Hunted Shot than a Crossbow could ever hope to do, as you combine all of the damage from Hunted Shot for Resistances.
You also need STR for frequent Climb checks, as well as Encumbrance. I would not recommend dumping STR on any character that doesn't have access to Spellcasting.
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You still need strength, so that you can switch to a bludgeoning melee weapon when you come up against a bunch of creatures that are resistant or immune to piercing damage.Nobody is immune to Piercing (or any physical damage), and much like Kineticists in PF1, the crossbow Ranger solution to Resistance is doing one big attack that punches right through. Which works fine, for the most part. There are less than 10 creatures in the Bestiary where switching from Piercing to Bludgeoning nets you more than 5 damage.Lots of things have high physical resistance except against special materials. Special material ammo is expensive.
If you think losing 5 damage per strike is nothing, that's certainly an opinion.
As a ranged Ranger playing Age of Ashes, I have had to switch to Melee several times to be effective. That's despite my Composite Longbow doing substantially more damage on a Hunted Shot than a Crossbow could ever hope to do, as you combine all of the damage from Hunted Shot for Resistances.
You also need STR for frequent Climb checks, as well as Encumbrance. I would not recommend dumping STR on any character that doesn't have access to Spellcasting.
It is also expensive to get a fully enchanted back up weapon though. The difference between a striking rune upgrade on a crossbow is already 5.5 damage, and a back up weapon will likely lag behind on striking and elemental runes to boot. It might actually be more cost effective to get 10 bolts of special materials, especially if you only use them once a round, but I haven't crunched the numbers.
Also a crossbow deals 11.5 damage per hit with Precision Edge, compared to the longbows 4.5 with flurry and 9 with Precision. Hunted Shot only deals more damage if you actually hit with both shots, and on flurry not even then really.
Deadman walking is correct. Crossbows may not appeal to everyone but they work pretty dang well for the right builds and are a balanced option in light of that.
You still need strength, so that you can switch to a bludgeoning melee weapon when you come up against a bunch of creatures that are resistant or immune to piercing damage.Nobody is immune to Piercing (or any physical damage), and much like Kineticists in PF1, the crossbow Ranger solution to Resistance is doing one big attack that punches right through. Which works fine, for the most part. There are less than 10 creatures in the Bestiary where switching from Piercing to Bludgeoning nets you more than 5 damage.Lots of things have high physical resistance except against special materials. Special material ammo is expensive.
If you think losing 5 damage per strike is nothing, that's certainly an opinion.
As a ranged Ranger playing Age of Ashes, I have had to switch to Melee several times to be effective. That's despite my Composite Longbow doing substantially more damage on a Hunted Shot than a Crossbow could ever hope to do, as you combine all of the damage from Hunted Shot for Resistances.
You also need STR for frequent Climb checks, as well as Encumbrance. I would not recommend dumping STR on any character that doesn't have access to Spellcasting.
It is also expensive to get a fully enchanted back up weapon though. The difference between a striking rune upgrade on a crossbow is already 5.5 damage, and a back up weapon will likely lag behind on striking and elemental runes to boot. It might actually be more cost effective to get 10 bolts of special materials, especially if you only use them once a round, but I haven't crunched the numbers.
Also a crossbow deals 11.5 damage per hit with Precision Edge, compared to the longbows 4.5 with flurry and 9 with Precision. Hunted Shot only deals more damage if you actually hit with both shots, and on flurry not even then really.
Deadman walking is correct. Crossbows may not appeal to everyone but they work pretty dang well for the right builds and are a...
A Composite Longbow deals 1d8+1 (or more. obviously, you aren't using it otherwise). With Precision, which is what I am using, that's an average of 10 per hit, with a non 0 chance to hit twice, which the Crossbow Ranger can't even attempt the vast majority of the time. Once you add in my Bear Support damage, the Bear's Precision Damage, and my Sneak Attack damage from Rogue Dedication + Sneak Attacker, it's an average of 1d8+1+1d8+1d8+1d8+1d6 on the first hit, and 1d8+1+1d8+1d6 on the second. So that's 22.5 on the first hit, with a non 0 chance of 13.5 on the second hit. That's without even counting Striking Runes. Not to mention the Deadly D10 on a crit.
Yes, I have mostly moved to a Shortbow to avoid Volley, but that's still only slightly less damage (21.5 and 12.5), which is compensated for by the increased chance to hit.
That's my worst turn. Hunt Prey, Command Animal, Hunted Shot.
That seems to be one too many d8, from what I can tell. 1d8+1 (longbow) + 1d8(bear)+1d8(precision)+1d6 sneak attack. So that's 18 average damage on the first and 13.5 on the second. On the short bow it is 17 and 12.5
The crossbow meanwhile does 2 damage on the hit than the longbow, which is probably not worth the -5 shot chance to do 13.5. But that's all largely because of the bear, which not every Ranger would have. Or Sneak Attacker, for that matter. I agree that the crossbow isn't the right call for your build but that doesn't make the crossbow the wrong call on other builds.
Also, at this level you'd have a striking rune I'd imagine, which helps more on the crossbow's larger damage dice. Comparing the shortbow, that would be 20.5 damage on the first hit vs 25.5 damage. Running Reload also offers a lot of contextual benefits that don't show up in white room DPR, like using the extra movement to remove cover bonuses or sneak once you get the right feats.
That seems to be one too many d8, from what I can tell. 1d8+1 (longbow) + 1d8(bear)+1d8(precision)+1d6 sneak attack. So that's 18 average damage on the first and 13.5 on the second. On the short bow it is 17 and 12.5
The crossbow meanwhile does 2 damage on the hit than the longbow, which is probably not worth the -5 shot chance to do 13.5. But that's all largely because of the bear, which not every Ranger would have. Or Sneak Attacker, for that matter. I agree that the crossbow isn't the right call for your build but that doesn't make the crossbow the wrong call on other builds.
Also, at this level you'd have a striking rune I'd imagine, which helps more on the crossbow's larger damage dice. Comparing the shortbow, that would be 20.5 damage on the first hit vs 25.5 damage. Running Reload also offers a lot of contextual benefits that don't show up in white room DPR, like using the extra movement to remove cover bonuses or sneak once you get the right feats.
The bear gets the benefit of precision the first time it hits each turn as well.
The bear gets the benefit of precision the first time it hits each turn as well.That's only if it actually attacks rather than using it's Support ability (which is what adds 1d8 to all your attacks). Which doesn't sound like what you had it doing.
I will concede that it is open to interpretation. It happens the first time the bear "hits" each turn. Hit is not defined in the rule book. The damage from the support ability is clearly coming from the bear itself. This portion can not be argued.
My interpretation is that the bear is "hitting" in order to deal the damage. So it does get the Precision damage.
However, as the Bear's damage is separate, it does not get doubled on a crit, or combined for Resistance.
I understand that others will have different interpretations, but the rules on this particular aspect are unclear.
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Yeah, looking that over it's less clear than I thought. I still wouldn't allow it, but it's ambiguous.
If you're allowing that (which again I wouldn't, and isn't gonna be universal), it makes Bow +Bear +Precision (very specifically) a lot better than if you're not, though, since you're effectively giving out an extra 1d8 damage to the bear if any attacks hit, and the bow route maximizes your chance of a single hit.
Also, at this level you'd have a striking rune I'd imagine, which helps more on the crossbow's larger damage dice. Comparing the shortbow, that would be 20.5 damage on the first hit vs 25.5 damage. Running Reload also offers a lot of contextual benefits that don't show up in white room DPR, like using the extra movement to remove cover bonuses or sneak once you get the right feats.
The extra die size of the crossbow is significant as the striking runes get better. It is why I dont mind the crossbow as a one shot occasional weapon.
But you are totally over selling Running Reload, a ranged character should not be moving every round. Its one of the advantages of ranged - you pick your spot and make them move. If you are using it a lot you are wasting actions and you probably aren't getting your hunted pery, or command animal in.
Retrograding with a ranged weapon is a specific tactic that requires a party built around it to do it more than once or twice.
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While you're not wrong that not having to move is typically an advantage of ranged weapons, it's not really a wasted action for the crossbow user because they have to do it anyways. Running Reload is purely an action economy enhancer, comparable to Twin Takedown and Hunted Shot in that regard. The downside is that it's a much higher level feat and doesn't improve your damage output like the other two do.
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Also, at this level you'd have a striking rune I'd imagine, which helps more on the crossbow's larger damage dice. Comparing the shortbow, that would be 20.5 damage on the first hit vs 25.5 damage. Running Reload also offers a lot of contextual benefits that don't show up in white room DPR, like using the extra movement to remove cover bonuses or sneak once you get the right feats.The extra die size of the crossbow is significant as the striking runes get better. It is why I dont mind the crossbow as a one shot occasional weapon.
But you are totally over selling Running Reload, a ranged character should not be moving every round. Its one of the advantages of ranged - you pick your spot and make them move. If you are using it a lot you are wasting actions and you probably aren't getting your hunted pery, or command animal in.
Retrograding with a ranged weapon is a specific tactic that requires a party built around it to do it more than once or twice.
He’s not really overselling Running Reload at all. Being able to Hide and Reload as a single action is great, and arguably more effective for crossbows. When combined with other Feats like Hunter’s Aim or Penetrating Shot it becomes even more of a one-hit-wonder that a Bow simply can’t keep up with. All of this on top of the fact that bows have to expend twice the ammunition that a crossbow does just to get ahead kinda shows that bows are meant to be better with flexibility and flurry builds while crossbows are meant to be better as heavy hitters.
Currently playing a Crossbow Ranger with an Animal Companion. Completed Plaguestone and Book 1 of AoA and still don’t have buyer’s remorse for my weapon or build choice. Have yet to come across any issues that couldn’t be chalked up to learning a new system; with the exception of how easily the Heavy Crossbow can be eclipsed by the Alchemical one.
Also, at this level you'd have a striking rune I'd imagine, which helps more on the crossbow's larger damage dice. Comparing the shortbow, that would be 20.5 damage on the first hit vs 25.5 damage. Running Reload also offers a lot of contextual benefits that don't show up in white room DPR, like using the extra movement to remove cover bonuses or sneak once you get the right feats.The extra die size of the crossbow is significant as the striking runes get better. It is why I dont mind the crossbow as a one shot occasional weapon.
But you are totally over selling Running Reload, a ranged character should not be moving every round. Its one of the advantages of ranged - you pick your spot and make them move. If you are using it a lot you are wasting actions and you probably aren't getting your hunted pery, or command animal in.
Retrograding with a ranged weapon is a specific tactic that requires a party built around it to do it more than once or twice.
He’s not really overselling Running Reload at all. Being able to Hide and Reload as a single action is great, and arguably more effective for crossbows. When combined with other Feats like Hunter’s Aim or Penetrating Shot it becomes even more of a one-hit-wonder that a Bow simply can’t keep up with. All of this on top of the fact that bows have to expend twice the ammunition that a crossbow does just to get ahead kinda shows that bows are meant to be better with flexibility and flurry builds while crossbows are meant to be better as heavy hitters.
Currently playing a Crossbow Ranger with an Animal Companion. Completed Plaguestone and Book 1 of AoA and still don’t have buyer’s remorse for my weapon or build choice. Have yet to come across any issues that couldn’t be chalked up to learning a new system; with the exception of how easily the Heavy Crossbow can be eclipsed by the Alchemical one.
You can't Hide with Running Reload. You can Sneak, but that requires you to already be Hidden. You would also have to use it twice to Reload a Heavy Crossbow, because a Heavy Crossbow requires 2 Interact actions to Reload.
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If we're talking about non-damage benefits of crossbows, then it feels remiss not to talk about one of the advantages bows have in handedness.
A bow user is going to be much better at opening doors, picking up objects, drinking potions and other stuff like that than a crossbow user.
A crossbow user can keep up if they drop to a hand crossbow, but then they give up their die size and range advantage people were touting earlier in the thread.
If we're talking about non-damage benefits of crossbows, then it feels remiss not to talk about one of the advantages bows have in handedness.
A bow user is going to be much better at opening doors, picking up objects, drinking potions and other stuff like that than a crossbow user.
A crossbow user can keep up if they drop to a hand crossbow, but then they give up their die size and range advantage people were touting earlier in the thread.
That's not quite right. The action to reload a crossbow can be the same as the action to regrip it. So the crossbow user can use their other hand freely provided they aren't currently loaded.
If we're talking about non-damage benefits of crossbows, then it feels remiss not to talk about one of the advantages bows have in handedness.
A bow user is going to be much better at opening doors, picking up objects, drinking potions and other stuff like that than a crossbow user.
A crossbow user can keep up if they drop to a hand crossbow, but then they give up their die size and range advantage people were touting earlier in the thread.
Quick Draw [Ranger, Rogue]...