Class / Ancestry Power / Enjoyment Poll


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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I understand Krobrina. When answering, I thought that 5 would be the average. It turned out that it's 7. So, my vote which was a bit above average ended up being a bit under average...


Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
krobrina wrote:

It isn't utterly terrible but it certainly requires

developer tuning

So 1... Then what is utterly terrible? -5?


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
krobrina wrote:

I put 1 for wizard. Here is why.

There are too many graduations (What does 10 levels mean?) so I simplify it as "terrible, poor, OK, good, amazing". I felt it was worse than poor. It isn't utterly terrible but it certainly requires developer tuning.

The numeric values I could handle would be 1-5 which directly correspond to the 5 grades (terrible, poor, ok, good, amazing). Or I could use 2-4-6-8-10 or 1-3-5-7-9. My response therefore must be 1 or 2 and the GUI layout of this form made 1 easier.

Thank you for your response!

I can empathize. I also struggle with numeric ratings like this, and at bare minimum need some sort of categorization mapped to it to help me understand. For these types of surveys it's perfectly normal that you are expected to just do your best, though yes, a more specific guide does help keep everyone on the same page.

And to say it ahead of time: Everyone else, please do not spend much time nitpicking with Krobrina about whether they should've really voted 2, or 3, or etc. We want to encourage more people to explain their thought process in voting because that can help potentially understand the data better, and even make a possible future poll better.

SuperBidi wrote:

I understand Krobrina. When answering, I thought that 5 would be the average. It turned out that it's 7. So, my vote which was a bit above average ended up being a bit under average...

That's totally ok! People could have different interpretations of these numbers, and while 7 turned out to be the average of the responses (ish), that doesn't mean everyone voting considered 7 to mean "average". I've been reading it as, on average, people agree that most of these options are fairly good, not just average.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

Hmm....I do wonder about the wizard responses in other ways. This thread had the unfortunate luck/timing of being next to not one, but two threads bashing on wizards, and as conversation of wizard ratings went across this thread too, the share of wizard responses has gone way up compared to the other classes!

Wizards currently make up 15% of the total responses, noticeably far away from the others (Rogue 11%, Fighter 10%, and everyone else 6-8%), and the more new ones come in, the more negatively things are being pushed down. I wonder if there's a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy going on there?

Let's not put on our tinfoil hats or anything. There's still not enough evidence to suggest that these aren't perfectly valid results. Only enough to note some circumstances.

Enough time has passed that I bet this poll is worth a second Reddit post. Continue to get a wider audience outside of these forums. Though yes, the 350 results so far is fantastic. It would at least more likely eliminate any forum bias.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I voted 10 because it looks nice. Also, somebody had to cancel that one out.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
I voted 10 because it looks nice. Also, somebody had to cancel that one out.

So you haven't actually played a wizard, only read the descriptions? Please don't purposefully put fake data in the poll because of a perception of other people putting in bad data. Now the only data point we can confidently remove because we can prove it was placed in there without actually playing that kind of a character is one of the 10s.


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Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
VestOfHolding wrote:


Let's not put on our tinfoil hats or anything. There's still not enough evidence to suggest that these aren't perfectly valid results. Only enough to note some circumstances.

My tinfoil hat is on since the 2nd page, I don't trust anyone being fair with their negative opinions (Bellow 3-4). People are overall, too crazy here, too passionate and disproportionate in their way of describing something they found... Like their lives depend on it. You are doing a wonderful job though Vest, thanks for keeping everything in check


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TSRodriguez wrote:
I don't trust anyone being fair with their negative opinions (Bellow 3-4). People are overall, too crazy here, too passionate and disproportionate in their way of describing something they found... Like their lives depend on it. You are doing a wonderful job though Vest, thanks for keeping everything in check

Can't trust them. Crazy people.

That whole 'let's not be rude' thing of yours didn't last very long, did it?


Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
swoosh wrote:

Can't trust them. Crazy people.

That whole 'let's not be rude' thing of yours didn't last very long, did it?

Didnt last even 2 days! xD - I meant crazy like, crazy for my local sports team, too passionate. If sounded too rude, I apologize.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

The selection bias alone on this should disqualify it from being valid.


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TSRodriguez wrote:
My tinfoil hat is on since the 2nd page, I don't trust anyone being fair with their negative opinions (Bellow 3-4). People are overall, too crazy here, too passionate and disproportionate in their way of describing something they found... Like their lives depend on it.

And how is this different in between a 1 given by a hater and a 10 given by a fanboy?


Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Ubertron_X wrote:
TSRodriguez wrote:
My tinfoil hat is on since the 2nd page, I don't trust anyone being fair with their negative opinions (Bellow 3-4). People are overall, too crazy here, too passionate and disproportionate in their way of describing something they found... Like their lives depend on it.
And how is this different in between a 1 given by a hater and a 10 given by a fanboy?

Non-different at all? Are you assuming I'm a fanboy? Wizard for me is 6-7 Max

Edit* Ah, you mean because I didn't state that I don't trust the fanboys who give it a 10... Because there isn't any?. Just Gorvs joking around as always.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:

I've seen a Wizard played in two of my games, one being at level 11. So, bite me, it's an opinion and you can't argue if those are valid or not. Besides, if you're running statistics and are removing data points just because you don't like the reasoning behind some and like behind others, well, that's not how statistics work.

And 10 is really prettier than 9.

Woah now, I think I've made my stance pretty clear in this thread on removing data points just because people don't like them.

I am responding to the fact that this survey is, "Please answer this form regarding a specific character you've played for a significant amount of time".

Your stated your reasoning as 2-fold:

1. "I voted 10 because it looks nice." Saying that you haven't played that character, ignoring what the survey has asked for.

2. "Also, somebody had to cancel that one out." This heavily suggests that the response here was a 10, not really because you fully agreed that it was a 10, but because you wanted to negate someone else's response of 1, because you have a problem with that response. So you are also attempting to remove data in your own way that you can as a responder of the poll.

I cannot argue your opinion on the class in general (well, besides the normal discussions of sharing opinions, but you get what I mean hopefully), you're right on that. I would like to think I've made my agreement on that stance very clear in this thread. I can argue that you give the poll what it's asked for purely based on your own experience, and not in a way where you are specifically attempting to undermine other responses.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
The selection bias alone on this should disqualify it from being valid.

The selection bias from it being just this forum users? Yes, I could see that argument. It's also better than nothing, and where the poll was posted can be made clear in the results, to be transparent about any potential bias like that.

This was also posted to the 2e subreddit, though I think with not nearly as much engagement. That's partially why I wondered a couple posts ago whether or not it's worth a second post, hyping up the results so far and the need for more perspectives. That subreddit also has a great Discord server. Could probably be posted there too. In general people should absolutely spread this poll to, for example, more of their gaming groups that aren't on the forum. I know both my parties aren't on this forum, so I did that.

Sovereign Court

Ubertron_X wrote:
Draco18s wrote:
The only reason it wasn't a complete slaughter was that the alchemist flubbed a save against Color Spray and critically failed. The full 1 minute of blindness was what did it (though the free round from stun was appreciated, but ultimately just a delay, as we landed no hits on him in that time).
Not wanting to dimnish your victory but hasn't Color Spray the incap trait, i.e. his save should have improved by one step if the difference in level was what you say?

You're right, RAW Color Spray is an Incapacitation spell, and so it should improve it's save by 1 step. A Crit Fail becomes a Fail instead, a Fail becomes a Success, etc. That is something that is frequently overlooked, and I feel it often should be on everything except maybe on the big-boss of the adventure.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
VestOfHolding wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
The selection bias alone on this should disqualify it from being valid.
The selection bias from it being just this forum users?

The selection bias of not being representative and self-selecting from the most emotionally devoted of the populations sub-sections.


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Okay wow this thread turned a little toxic.

So some meta-conclusions I have are:

1. The 1-10 scale was broad and undefined. Maybe a better way to analyze power (not sure about enjoyment) would be to ask people to rate the relative power of their entire party (something like, take the classes of characters in your party and organize them by general effectiveness and usefulness)

2. Publishing the results beforehand has it's drawbacks. It seems like some people didn't respond the same way they would have without seeing the results. I like how some people enjoyed analyzing the results as they were being published, but maybe (??) it wasn't worth it.

3. If you look at some results, it seems like some people either had a lot of experience with a lot of classes or they just responded many times for no reason (We have a streak of responses going over all of the classes, in alphabetical order, without mentioning ancestry, in the scope of 3 minutes? come on...). Maybe I should limit the results to 1 per person (I wanted people who played multiple characters to be able to answer multiple times, but I guess this isn't necessary for a poll about relative power).

In any case, I hope this poll made people more aware of some trends (Maybe wizards aren't as useless as the poll suggests, but it seems like the people are generally not satisfied with the wizard).

I won't close the poll for now, but I'm thinking of making a new one that lets people rank relative class power and keep the results hidden until the end. I'd be happy to hear people's opinions on such a thing. I might not do that anyway because the general trends of power are probably obvious to the community by now. Maybe. Not sure...


I see the problem isn't the wizard but the additional help everyone has got to do things that were traditionally the wizard's role.

In PF1 you asked the wizard to cast flight. In PF2, barbarians can just flap their dragon rage wings and fly.


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krobrina wrote:
In PF1 you asked the wizard to cast flight. In PF2, barbarians can just flap their dragon rage wings and fly.

I mean, yeah, in combat.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah, I feel that this poll has questionable value for the reasons you listed, I actually didn't even vote because I've just been GMing this whole time.

I'd personally say we can safely interpret the Wizard bit as being heavily influenced by the recent threads on the subject, and while I'm sure there's some credibility to some complaints about the Wizard, there are some very overwrought people on the boards- and I say this with love, I would not put it past them to skew the results to validate their own arguments.


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The-Magic-Sword wrote:

Yeah, I feel that this poll has questionable value for the reasons you listed, I actually didn't even vote because I've just been GMing this whole time.

I'd personally say we can safely interpret the Wizard bit as being heavily influenced by the recent threads on the subject, and while I'm sure there's some credibility to some complaints about the Wizard, there are some very overwrought people on the boards- and I say this with love, I would not put it past them to skew the results to validate their own arguments.

yes, some people did what you said and assumed to put a 10 note even though they knew it was not deserve and, yes, he probably did it to validate what he thinks.


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I agree the poll and thread has become weird.

But I do have to say the main wizard thread in question is not "recent", it has been going on and off since PF2 was released.

How valid the opinions are does still remain an open question.

****************

Side note:

While I was learning about reviews, I did find out about the 4 point scale trope.

Which happened to show up in this thread. Basically, the average of the scale might be 5, but anything less than 6 can mean anything from "horrible to barely passable".


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Temperans wrote:

Side note:

While I was learning about reviews, I did find out about the 4 point scale trope.

Which happened to show up in this thread. Basically, the average of the scale might be 5, but anything less than 6 can mean anything from "horrible to barely passable".

Yes! It's a very fascinating problem.

The other puzzle that's hard to solve with these types of polls is what other people touched on, that mostly the people who are more likely to vote are those far more invested, so you're likely to see a spike of high and low numbers, and very few comparatively middle scores. We ran into that a little less than others, but, see literally any website that uses a 5-star rating system: Amazon, app stores, etc. You either get a bunch of 5s, or a bunch of 1s, and very few in the middle, lol.

The way that most sites and polls like that have solved it is by using a simple thumps-up, thumps-down system. This largely solves the problem people may have distinguishing between say, a 4 and a 5, and tends to give much better results for the question of whether or not people would recommend a particular thing.


How about a 3 point system (Yes, Neutral, and No)?

But given my lack of experience I am not sure.


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Honestly the best way to do things is to present people with two random choices and ask which one they like more (is more powerful, is more fun, etc) and compute ratings from that (basically using an ELO system).

The problem with something like classes in PF is that it requires having played more than one class.


VestOfHolding wrote:
Temperans wrote:

Side note:

While I was learning about reviews, I did find out about the 4 point scale trope.

Which happened to show up in this thread. Basically, the average of the scale might be 5, but anything less than 6 can mean anything from "horrible to barely passable".

Yes! It's a very fascinating problem.

The other puzzle that's hard to solve with these types of polls is what other people touched on, that mostly the people who are more likely to vote are those far more invested, so you're likely to see a spike of high and low numbers, and very few comparatively middle scores. We ran into that a little less than others, but, see literally any website that uses a 5-star rating system: Amazon, app stores, etc. You either get a bunch of 5s, or a bunch of 1s, and very few in the middle, lol.

The way that most sites and polls like that have solved it is by using a simple thumps-up, thumps-down system. This largely solves the problem people may have distinguishing between say, a 4 and a 5, and tends to give much better results for the question of whether or not people would recommend a particular thing.

I agree with the premise that extremes are the most engaged, but a 5-star score is usually a measure of dissatisfaction with the standard of 5 and everything below that is a bad grade.

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