If you have someone who has never played tabletop RPGs before which would be easier to learn, 1e or 2e?
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As someone who learned 1e directly off the back of 3.5 where the rules were mostly the same, and who has taught many people how to play it:
2e by far
It has been harder to unlearn some of the weird niche mechanics of 1e than it has been to learn 2e. My newest player who was introduced to 2e with no prior experience picked up the basics of her character in a fraction the time any other person I've ever taught.
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Whatever their friends (or better friends) are playing?
Then I'd say PF2. The action economy, action descriptions, traits, and several other factors make it easier to understand, and you don't need system mastery to maintain competitiveness. There's no default easy PC (like archer in PF1) due to changes in archery, but with an 18 in their main stat it's really, really hard to accidentally make a bad PC.
The published adventures, so far, are a bit on the harder side, but that's due to risk, not complexity. Some PFS scenarios may be easier to start.
By a country mile, 2e.
Introducing new players to 1e is something I dread. Introducing new players to 2e has so far been really smooth.
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Even people who knew 3.5 really well are going to find the sheer volume of options available in PF1 to be comparatively daunting.
You can say "well, we can just limit the books used" but people are going to find out about new classes, archetypes, r̶a̶c̶e̶s̶ ancestries, etc. via the internet where it's all out there uncurated.
2e is so much more intuitive. I ran and played in 1e for years and I still don't know how grappling works.
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The need to teach new players is what almost forced me out of PF1.
Play PF2. Otherwise you'll end up having to play 5e, and nobody wants that.
Between 1E and 2E it's simply no contest. I still remember floundering around with 1E when I was a teen. We still had fun, but man was it ever messy.
I think comparing 2E and DnD 5E in this regard is pretty interesting. They are both aiming for streamlining and simplicity, but in very different ways.
I think new 1E players are easily overwhelmed when they are asked to choose talents/feats and other options (happened to me/my players when we started pf1)
2E is intended to be easy to learn, and it is, imho.
I really like that 2E manages to guide players through character creation and level ups better, i.e. 'pick one of these 4 relevant options' rather than a whole endless list.
Also, 3-action economy is much more intuitive.
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So I tried reaching myself both systems, didn't have anyone to guide me through it aside from online forums.
2e by a mile. I was able to get to grips with character creation with just a character sheet and the CRB.
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I'm not sure I've ever seen this forum this much in agreement. :)
I guess that, if anything, is solid evidence that the devs succeeded in their stated goal of making 2e more approachable.
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I'm not sure I've ever seen this forum this much in agreement. :)
I guess that, if anything, is solid evidence that the devs succeeded in their stated goal of making 2e more approachable.
That's because certain people who strongly dislike the system haven't popped up in this thread yet.
But yea P2 is 10000000000% easier.
You just hit level 4-
P1: Here is a list of 100 feats, only about 10 of which you even qualify for and only 2 are worth taking, but you actually NEED to take this one (not included in the 2) because otherwise you will never qualify for all these other feats you will want to take in levels 5-20. No I'm not going to tell you which ones are which, that's why some guy on the internet wrote a 30 page guide so that you don't ruin your whole party. HAVE FUN!
P2: Pick one of these 4. No it doesn't matter they're all great.
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PF2, no question.
True story: I am currently running a PF1 game of Tyrant's Grasp and a PF2 game of Age of Ashes with the same players. One of the players has had 90% of their gaming experience with 3.5, and really only plays PF2 because that's what the group is doing. They are, by far, the least enthusiastic convert, as they are generally happier and more comfortable with the power (im)balance of 3.5/PF1. But in our last session of TG, I heard them mutter, "I can't believe I am wishing this were done the 2nd Ed way..."
It gets in your head.
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That's because certain people who strongly dislike the system haven't popped up in this thread yet.
I think hardcore 1E supporters are more likely to consider the complexity and breadth of 1E to be an advantage, rather than trying to argue it's somehow easier to learn.
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2nd edition is so much easier to teach it's nuts.
Like, I shudder to imagine explaining natural attacks and virtual hands to someone again. I need a drink just thinking about it.
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That's because certain people who strongly dislike the system haven't popped up in this thread yet.I think hardcore 1E supporters are more likely to consider the complexity and breadth of 1E to be an advantage, rather than trying to argue it's somehow easier to learn.
Mainly this. Plus we're talking about the entirety of PF1 vs the start of PF2: PF1 loses just on the amount of information there is no matter how easy/hard any one piece of it was to learn individually.
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2nd edition is so much easier to teach it's nuts.
Like, I shudder to imagine explaining natural attacks and virtual hands to someone again. I need a drink just thinking about it.
Oh, goddess, virtual hands.
*cries*
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I have bad memories of trying to explain why an attack action is a specific kind of standard action and not just any standard action that results in an attack.
Ironically, something that is cleaned up efficiently with PF2's organizational nomenclature (i.e. we're talking about an action used to Strike.)
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Ever wonder how rules lawyers teach people the rules?
Let me put it this way, by the time I finished carting out the fourth wheely chest full of 1E rulebooks out of my car, all the newbs who had previously shown interest had all decided to watch anime instead.
Now, in 2E, I just hand them a set of dice, a Core Rulebook (or AoN), and direct them to Pathbuilder 2E and PF2 EasyTool on their phone before we begin.
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Same experience here. Compared to 3.P, P2e is like teaching a board game rather than slamming Golarion Statutes Annotated on the table in front of someone and expecting them to jump in and have fun.
. . . Pathbuilder 2E and PF2 EasyToool . . .
I wish Pathbuilder were (officially) released for iOS, because it looks great and I'm bummed that HeroLab moved in the direction they're going. Pf2 EasyTool, on the other hand, is something I hadn't seen before and after just a few seconds of fiddling with it looks so much better than AoN; thanks!
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Let me put it this way, by the time I finished carting out the fourth wheely chest full of 1E rulebooks out of my car, all the newbs who had previously shown interest had all decided to watch anime instead.
Now, in 2E, I just hand them a d20, a Core Rulebook, and direct them to Pathbuilder 2E and PF2 EasyTool on their phone before we begin.
To be fair what you describe sounds more like PF2 just being new and having less content. You could use just the CRB for PF1, after all, but you chose not to.
Don't get me wrong, PF2 is easier to learn systematically. But it is more than just a lack of content.
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For anyone else who hasn't seen PF2 EasyTool, check that site out!
I think Archive of Nethys is a little better for doing rules lookups, like if you need to know what the guidelines for encounter building are or the rules for counteract checks.
But EasyTool is incredible for looking up ancestries/classes/feats/skills/spells/monsters/etc. I use it constantly.
For anyone else who hasn't seen PF2 EasyTool, check that site out!
I think Archive of Nethys is a little better for doing rules lookups, like if you need to know what the guidelines for encounter building are or the rules for counteract checks.
But EasyTool is incredible for looking up ancestries/classes/feats/skills/spells/monsters/etc. I use it constantly.
Thank you for the tip! I hadn't checked out EasyTool, and man you are right!!
I am not quite certain but it looks like theres a direktion this thread is going...
but in all seriousness
2e is much easier to learn and to run
(and about 18 in the main attribute, well a 16 should be fine already in most cases ;) )
Let me put it this way, by the time I finished carting out the fourth wheely chest full of 1E rulebooks out of my car, all the newbs who had previously shown interest had all decided to watch anime instead.
There is a simple solution to this. Just confine yourself to the holy trinity of CRB, DMG and MM. Problem solved.
Let me put it this way, by the time I finished carting out the fourth wheely chest full of 1E rulebooks out of my car, all the newbs who had previously shown interest had all decided to watch anime instead.There is a simple solution to this. Just confine yourself to the holy trinity of CRB, DMG and MM. Problem solved.
Or use online resources and/or pdf's. My "carting" around all my rulebooks is me taking my tablet out of the car... And as a bonus, my pdf's are the latest reprint. ;)
Or use online resources and/or pdf's. My "carting" around all my rulebooks is me taking my tablet out of the car... And as a bonus, my pdf's are the latest reprint. ;)
Yeah, my good ol' "wheely chest days" didn't make it past the first month. I still buy all the books (I like the way they look on my bookshelves and I want to support Paizo as a business), but generally only take the Core Rulebook, module, and Bestiary with me, relying on the PDFs for everything else.
I only recently got into SmartPhone Unlimited Data tech too, and so now can take full advantage of things like PF2 EasyTool. I honestly don't know how I got along without it for so many years.
I still buy all the books (I like the way they look on my bookshelves and I want to support Paizo as a business)
I love looking through a physical book but it's just too darn convenient to have errata'd pdf's all available at a touch, especially if you're flipping through several to find what you need. Luckily, I have a friend that works at a book store that buys all the physical book so I can get all the pdf's for myself and borrow the physical book is I want. ;)
I honestly don't know how I got along without it for so many years.
Yep, the online tools make things so much easier. You can insert hyperlinks into your sheets and you're one click away from all the info you need.
Let me put it this way, by the time I finished carting out the fourth wheely chest full of 1E rulebooks out of my car, all the newbs who had previously shown interest had all decided to watch anime instead.There is a simple solution to this. Just confine yourself to the holy trinity of CRB, DMG and MM. Problem solved.
Let me put it this way. I did that. I wanted that. I tried to introduce 2 players to Pathfinder a few years ago exactly like this.
What followed was three weeks of reiterating that concept to the other 2 players, and ended up with kicking one of the guys after he flat out refused to have less than five archetypes at level 1.
We eventually cancelled the game as we could not find anyone to take over and the newbies were annoyed.
We played 5e.
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Let me put it this way, by the time I finished carting out the fourth wheely chest full of 1E rulebooks out of my car, all the newbs who had previously shown interest had all decided to watch anime instead.There is a simple solution to this. Just confine yourself to the holy trinity of CRB, DMG and MM. Problem solved.Let me put it this way. I did that. I wanted that. I tried to introduce 2 players to Pathfinder a few years ago exactly like this.
What followed was three weeks of reiterating that concept to the other 2 players, and ended up with kicking one of the guys after he flat out refused to have less than five archetypes at level 1.
We eventually cancelled the game as we could not find anyone to take over and the newbies were annoyed.
We played 5e.
Yes. I think we're getting to a point that people who prefer PF1 are doing so precisely because they want to go beyond the CRB. Ease of entry is not an issue for them.
In the age of everybody having d20pfsrd and AoN at their fingertips, "please use only this one book" sounds more like "I'm too lazy to let you have the good stuff. Or, I hate martials. Perhaps I'm a control freak. Or maybe a bit of all the above."
Honestly, at some point "use whatever, just try to respect the themes of the campaign, and don't try to break the game" is easier from a practical perspective than having to check every feat and spell against a list of approved splatbooks.
Carrying around my first edition library is how I keep in shape in the off-season.
That said, I agree with everyone here.
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In the age of everybody having d20pfsrd and AoN at their fingertips, "please use only this one book" sounds more like "I'm too lazy to let you have the good stuff. Or, I hate martials. Perhaps I'm a control freak. Or maybe a bit of all the above."
It always, always did.
A GM really only needs to know the material a player chooses for their character. We never had to read all of Occult Adventures to allow a mesmerist at the table. We never needed to read more than the text for Sacred Geometry to see that it was too meta and broken for most tables.
Even allowing third-party material shouldn't've been arduous. I've read more than my fair share of GMs who have spent incredible amounts of time reinventing the wheel, designing campaign settings where they've micro-managed intricate religions, economies, racial relationships, historic dynasties and so on, knowing as I read that the players wouldn't engage with more than a fraction of that. Spend that effort simply learning the rules your players are interested in playing. All I'm saying is that most GMs who were intimidated by the amount of material available were overreacting or spending their time unwisely.
PF2 will eventually have that same issue but with the condensed power-band, broken/undesirable things will likely be harder to spot. I don't consider that a problem, personally.