How to make most of a bite attack while fox shaped?


Advice


Hello all,

The PC is a ninja with 1 mouser dip, permanently shifted into fox shape, and aims to be the stealthy one to take out the unsuspecting squishier prey among the opposition. Problem for thought is that the PC has but a single attack to use, that leaves how to best utilize the 3/4 BaB to make that single attack count.

The PC just hit lvl 5.
------------------------

At the moment their feats:

1) Combat reflexes, 3) fox shape. 5) ??

Ninja tricks:
2) Vanish, 4) ??

With the future feats not planned, what would best benefit a single attack 3/4 class?


Dirty Tricks, because the damage is always going to be trivial.


VoodooistMonk is right. Which really calls the character concept into doubt as stated.

Having Fox shape as a kitsune ninja is a perfectly good idea. But it is not something you can rely on to do lots of damage. I would become a fox for trickery and stealth and mostly fight as a kitsune.

It is hard to give too much advice w/o more detail of your character's build. But this is a good feat for you in all probability.

Weapon Finesse (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.

Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.

Something you may not want to hear but should you can't take-

Fox Shape (Kitsune)

You can change into a fox in addition to your other forms.

Prerequisites: Cha 13, base attack bonus +3, kitsune.

Special: A kitsune may select this feat any time she would gain a feat.

Benefit: You can take the form of a fox whose appearance is static and cannot be changed each time you assume this form. Your bite attack’s damage is reduced to 1d3 points of damage on a hit, but you gain a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear as a fox. Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as beast shape II, and your ability scores change accordingly.

at lvl 3 because your BaB is only 2 then.

Good news though, there is this alternative racial trait that you can start with the gets you fox shape w/o spending a feat on it.

Superior Shapeshifter Some talented kitsune take more naturally to shapeshifting than magic, and develop that gift. They gain Fox Shape as a bonus feat at 1st level, ignoring its prerequisites. This racial trait replaces kitsune magic

You sound like a fairly new player who has made some mistakes with their character. If you like my suggested trait ask if you can change and you will get a 2nd feat to allocate now.


Joyntz Jezebel, to clarfiy, that feat slot was retrained at lvl 4, when BaB turned +3.
Should have mentioned that.

The trait's off the table, unfortunately.
Weapon finesse benefit was already obtained via swashbuckler (mouser).

As far as character concept was concerned,
The ninja's a mischievous sneak, more meant to harass those he can, rather than take the brunt of conflict.

I'm not too new though, been on the boards for several years.

@ Voodistmonk,
Ninja's got an agile amulet of mighty fists to make the higher dex count.
But yes, it'll probably turn void when fighting anything DR 10/[Insert X]

Hmm, would it be worth spending the feats & ninja tricks to spec for the kitsune style chain?


Making natural weapons viable in pathfinder requires adding more of them. A level of sorcerer or urban barbarian can net you claws (which will work with your form because they're an addition to your anatomy, not a change) . Three sneak attacks from inside someone's square at full BAB will REALLY mess with someone's day.


I have a build with a lot of ideas that might work to help a Kitsune Fox-shaped Ninja/Mouser make the most of his Bite Attack.

Meet BONZAI!! .

I have Bonza!! using Unarmed Strikes, but Bite should work (or you could use Unarmed Strikes, too).

My character locks in Sneak Attack Damage by Flanking, using Dimensional Slide to help with that, and also Canny Tumble: when you make a successful Acrobatics Check to Tumble through a Threatened Square, your opponent loses Dex Mod to AC.

Bonzai gets Attacks of Opportunity and Free Action Attacks because of a 1 level dip into Monk, Master of Many Styles and combines Panther and Snake styles.

Canny Tumble requires Dodge and Mobility, but since Panther Style requires you do Provoke Attacks of Opportunity by Moving out of threatened squares, you will be wanting Mobility anyway.

Sovereign Court

My fox shape 'fighter' was mostly occultist (and eventually retrained to full occultist at 12), but initially did have a level of Mouser Swashbuckler and a level of Sacred Fist Warpriest of Daikitsu(primary goddess of Kitsune). Artifice Blessing meant I could damage any object (which was important in a certain level of Bonekeep) and Plant to swift action entangle for 1 round on hitting.
I got around the number of attacks by using unarmed strikes with flurry and iterative attacks as opposed to going the mutation "all the random natural attacks" route. This also made it so Magic/Greater Weapon/Fang applied to all of my attacks. When I retrained out of Sacred Fist, I ended up taking Eldritch Heritage(Ghoul)(as opposed to the standard Draconic) to gain claws a couple rounds a day when it was important to full attack... and more importantly paralyze the enemy on a failed save. Ghoul was nice, because its Skill Focus(Stealth) while Draconic is Perception. Draconic claws would do a bit more damage though.

Damage was decent because being so small makes us really accurate and +dex to damage and piranha strike, but I could tell I was falling off the rest of the melee fighters by 12 which prompted my doubling down on Occultist and going more support.

Higher-ish levels, having UMD for a scroll(or three) of beast shape 4 for Dweomercat Cub for higher stats, base-line claws and pounce.

Since this type of build likely has tanked strength greatly, I strongly suggest a Ring of Inner Fortitude(at least minor) to protect yourself from Shadows.

Without something like Underfoot Assault from Mouser, a tiny creature entering an enemy's square not using a 5' step actually provokes 2 attacks of opportunity. One for entering the square and one for movement. You can use acrobatics to negate the movement one, but simply entering their square always provokes. So if you build off provoking all the time its not exactly a penalty.


@ Firebug, one can roll two acrobatics vs the entering of said square, (moving regular & entering their square) right?

I mean, if you can roll vs several opponents when moving through a threatened square, why not this?

@ Scott Wilhelm,
Bonzai looks fun, and looks like Canny Tubmle is right up the alley for a fox. Sad that it is a 3 Feat thing. X)
And i'm familiar with Daikitsu. Said PC prayed fervently after him escaping a snake pit, inhabited by a very big snake. ^^

So, the PC would be looking at either:
Dirty tricks, Kitsune style feats, through regular feats and ninja tricks. Non multiclass, works best from BaB +6 onwards, which comes from PC lvl 8, if continuing ninja.

Or more dmg oriented with, like BigNorseWolf suggested with a 2 lvl dip into Urban Barbarian for claws. Requiring Dodge, mobility, Canny Tumble. At earliest PC lvl 7.

In any case thanks for the ideas everyone. :)

Sovereign Court

Chyrone wrote:

@ Firebug, one can roll two acrobatics vs the entering of said square, (moving regular & entering their square) right?

I mean, if you can roll vs several opponents when moving through a threatened square, why not this?

The point is that Acrobatics allows you to roll to avoid an AoO when leaving a threatened square, but tiny creatures also provoke for entering a creature's space.

That being said, its subtle and likely has wild table variation because of that.


Chyrone wrote:

@ Scott Wilhelm,

Bonzai looks fun, and looks like Canny Tubmle is right up the alley for a fox. Sad that it is a 3 Feat thing. X)

Bonzai! makes the 3 Feats worthwhile because he is also taking Panther Style Feats, which make Dodge and Mobility necessary. You might not use it for a character with a single Bite Attack, but he also takes Circling Mongoose which lets him Full Attack while moving, and which also has Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites. Because he is a Goblin, I was thinking of having him take Tangle Feet, which also has Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites. So, I would be getting a lot of those things the the groundwork of those 2 Feats.

I think your Fox would still get a lot.

Liberty's Edge

Grrr


Grrr De'Bonaire wrote:
Grrr

You just mad because you're late...


Chyrone wrote:

Joyntz Jezebel, to clarfiy, that feat slot was retrained at lvl 4, when BaB turned +3.

Should have mentioned that.

Ah, now it is clear.

Chyrone wrote:
The trait's off the table, unfortunately.

Pity. It is a neat trick, getting fox shape for a racial trait.

The conversation on this thread has taken off in a direction I know little about, so I will leave it to those more knowledgeable.


I agree, it would have been a lot better.

Would spring attack still avoid an aoo, if used by a tiny creature, for purpose of avoiding the aoo for entering an opponent's square?

If not, spring attack @ Canny tumble?


As I said, I am not an expert on this area of the rules.

Both feats should work for a tiny creature. Nothing says it doesn't.

See the quote at the end, and esp the second FAQ. So-

"Would spring attack still avoid an aoo, if used by a tiny creature, for purpose of avoiding the aoo for entering an opponent's square?"

Yes, but to spring attack you have to spring attack, a full round action to move, attack, move as described.

"If not, spring attack @ Canny tumble?"

This will work to allow you to pass through an opponent's square [and do other things]. But it won't allow you to end your movement in an occupied square.

From pfsrd20-

"Spring Attack (Combat)
You can deftly move up to a foe, strike, and withdraw before he can react.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.

Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.

FAQ
Can Vital Strike be used with Spring Attack? Can Vital Strike be used on a charge?

No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action. Spring Attack is a special kind of full-round action that includes the ability to make one melee attack, not one attack action. Charging uses similar language and can also not be used in combination with Vital Strike.

[Source]

Can I use Spring Attack to make an attack from an ally’s square?

Let’s use a diagram of a 5-foot-wide hallway to help visualize this question. Periods are open squares. A is the acting character. Numbers are allies of A. X is the monster.

. . . . . A 1 2 3 X

Using the diagram as a model, the question is, “Can I use Spring Attack to move from A to 3, make an attack on the monster from 3’s square, then move back to A and end my turn?” The answer is “yes.” The key to understanding this is the general rule, “you cannot end your movement in an occupied square.” Spring Attack is a full-round action; it is not a move action, then an attack, and then another move action, it’s one continuous movement with an attack happening in the middle. Thus, with Spring Attack you’re not ending your movement until you end your movement for the turn. To look at it another way, if the character just wanted to move from A to 3 and back to A, that would be a legal move because he’s not ending his movement in 3, he’s ending his movement back in A. With Spring Attack, the character still isn’t ending his movement in 3; the feat gives him the ability to perform an attack as part of the continuous movement from A to 3 to A (regardless of whether that attack happens when he’s in an occupied square). (Even with speed 15, a character moving 15 feet from A to 3 and then 15 feet from 3 to A isn’t ending his movement in 3… using a move action to move 15 feet and a standard action to move 15 feet doesn’t mean he’s actually pausing halfway through his movement to change actions.)"


Chyrone wrote:

I agree, it would have been a lot better.

Would spring attack still avoid an aoo, if used by a tiny creature, for purpose of avoiding the aoo for entering an opponent's square?

probably. (and having a fox form fighter is why that came up in the first place...)

Since moving into a creatures square doesn't provoke twice (ie, entering the square is not it's own trigger action), the most consistent conclusion there is that it's a movement related AOO. Since it's a movement related AOO, spring attack should work.

Liberty's Edge

VoodistMonk wrote:
Grrr De'Bonaire wrote:
Grrr
You just mad because you're late...

.

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