1 minute/level vs. 1 round/level makes a pretty big difference
I think when they're talking about Summoner vs. Conjurer summoning, yeah the Eidolon is pretty good. But the Conjurer and every other archetype of Summoner doesn't even come close to the archetype Master Summoner, which hands down reigns supreme when it comes to summoning because of this:
Master Summoner
Summoning Mastery (Sp)
Starting at 1st level, a master summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 5 + his Charisma modifier. The summoner can use this ability when his eidolon is summoned. Only one summon monster spell may be in effect while the eidolon is summoned. If the summoner’s eidolon is not summoned, the number of creatures that can be summoned with this ability is only limited by its uses per day. This ability otherwise functions as the summoner’s normal summon monster I ability. Other than these restrictions, there is no limit to how many summon monster or gate spells the summoner can have active at one time.
It's not uncommon for a Master Summoner to have 3-5 summons out during regular encounter, or even 5-10 summons out for a challenging encounter.
1 minute/level vs. 1 round/level makes a pretty big differenceNot once you're past level 5 or so, at least not in the groups I play with. If a combat lasts longer than 5 or so rounds, something is going really wrong
I think when they're talking about Summoner vs. Conjurer summoning, yeah the Eidolon is pretty good. But the Conjurer and every other archetype of Summoner doesn't even come close to the archetype Master Summoner, which hands down reigns supreme when it comes to summoning because of this:That's a specific archetype though, would you say that if you want to play a summoning caster you should only play the Master Summoner archetype because it's obviously better thanks to one ability? It also makes your Eidolon significantly weaker in return for relatively inferior summons.
Welp, Level 9 spells are nothing to sneeze at, so if your campaign is going lvl 17+, personally I'd probably pick Conjurer. But at the same time, I understand the draw to play a Summoner in a lvl 17+ campaign too. I think it comes down to how you want to play.
But yeah, if you want to summon, Master Summoner is hands down the most summon-y archetype/class in the game.
We should ignore Master Summoner, because even the book it's in says you probably shouldn't use it. But really, I think the monster tactician inquisitor is at least as bad. The monster tactician gets to apply teamwork feats to his summons to boost their efficiency, and his number of summons is based on wisdom instead of charisma, which is usually a stronger stat for a caster. And then there's all the other inquisitor goodies the monster tactician gets to keep that the summoner can't compete with, like 6+ skills per level and domains/inquisitions. But let's get on to comparing the summoner and conjurer.
First, the summoner has more summoning spells per day. The summoner gets 3+charisma bonus uses per day of their strongest summon monster spell, which is almost always going to be way more than the wizard's number of top level summoning spells per day.
Second, the summoner's summoned monsters last minutes per level. This is great at low level, since they'll always last an entire combat. But at higher levels, you also have the possibility of a single summoned monster lasting for multiple combats.
Third, the summoner doesn't have to jump through any hoops to do standard action summoning.
Fourth, the summoner has a good to great spell list and doesn't need to sacrifice any of its summoner spells to summon, so it basically has more spells per day than the conjurer.
Well, barring Master Summoner, I'd say that Summoner would still win in the Summoner vs. Conjurer in terms of raw summoning power. Eidolon and scaling Summon Monster SLA runs circles around anything Conjurer gets (one permanent Summoned Monster at level 20... meh). However, I'd still prefer to play a Conjurer Wizard. Wizard's utility is only rivaled by one other class, Druid. And Wizards get so much more in terms of spell progression and metamagic feats, that the lack of summoning power wouldn't be missed. You can still summon as a Conjurer, but that's not your only trick.
Btw, the arcanist occultist is the middle ground between the two. Fewer summons than the summoner, but a full spell list like the conjurer.
The thing about the Summoner is that he's extraordinarily powerful at low levels, but drops off rapidly at higher levels. At 1st level there's no other class with anywhere near his staying power. 3+Cha castings of SM1 alone gives easily half a dozen combat encounters worth of resources, and that's after his eidolon is downed for the day and he's got regular spell slots on top of that. Fighters are out of hit points, Clerics are out of channels, and Wizards are out of spell slots long before the Summoner is even close to being tapped.
The Summoner drops off at higher levels, however. While 3+Cha castings of Summon monster at the highest level-appropriate spell level is still amazing, other classes catch up in terms of the total amount of resources they can bring to bear over the coarse of an adventuring day. Casters will have a plethora of extra spell slots, hit points become relatively inexpensive to replenish with consumables so Fighters just don't stop, and as a 3/4 BAB class with no combat class features the Summoner himself ceases to be a relevant combatant.
However, perhaps the most insidious weakness of the Summoner at higher levels is magical equipment. He has equipment slot interference with his eidolon. If his eidolon is wearing a magical cloak then the Summoner can't benefit from one and vice-versa. This has massive implications for the "big six", and means the Summoner and Eidolon are much squishier than they should be.
In terms of Summoner vs Unchained Summoner, the Unchained Summoner is essentially intended as a nerf to the Summoner. Many of the spells on its spell list had unreasonable level discounts (ie, Haste as a 2nd level spell) and some evolutions needed higher prerequisites to keep them out of low-level play (Pounce). However, I feel they went overboard and pruned out virtually all discounted spells from the Summoner's list, even ones that were incredibly justified (ie, Planar Binding spell line) or were more flavor options that would rarely if ever be taken by PC's anyways (ie, Binding). In addition they didn't take the chance to buff underpowered evolutions like the breath weapon while simultaneously reducing the evolution point budget so you couldn't afford to take flavorful options as easily. Overall I feel it was a huge missed opportunity.
Not once you're past level 5 or so, at least not in the groups I play with. If a combat lasts longer than 5 or so rounds, something is going really wrong
5 minute duration is long enough for a summoned monster to survive more than one combat encounter. It also allows you to more confidently pre-cast it when you suspect combat is imminent, something a Wizard cannot necessarily due since the spell times out so quickly. This also greatly widens its applications for non-combat utility purposes. You can summon a monster with abilities to help you navigate a dungeon and actually have it last long enough to remain relevant the whole way through.
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1 minute/level vs. 1 round/level makes a pretty big difference
At higher levels, the full round vs. standard action on the casting time is more important.
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Even if we ignore archetypes, the summoner is simply the best at what it does.
If your goal is to summon things, the Summoner (APG or Unchained, doesn't matter) gets more uses of the best summons than anybody else, at standard action right out of the box (which is much more broken than most people give it credit for), and they last longer, getting to a point where you can often go multiple battles on the same summon.
In addition to that, they've got one of the best spell lists in the game (only slightly worse for Unchained), and their summons don't use up their spell slots, so they've got a lot to go around.
They've also got a great set of class skills, and if you're built to use summons for combat then your eidolon can be built to be a pocket rogue, and you just pull it out to show off its obscenely high skills in the things you need.
The only real competition for it as a monster summoner is the Monster Tactician Inquisitor, because it gets to do the same summoning shtick but buff them up with teamwork feats, in exchange for a worse spell list and no eidolon rogue buddy.
The early access spells mean the APG summoner gets a bunch of wizard favourites at about the same character level. Because they're lower level using metamagic rods or spell perfection on them is more effective.
That's late game. Early on light armour and a d8 HD, and a solid pet make for a more survivable character. Regular summoning spells can be combined with an eidolon BTW.
But lets be clear - summoners being good doesn't make an optimised wizard any less broken than it was before. An optimised wizard is the gold standard for power.
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My biggest issue I have seen is a Summoner's spell selection is way more limited. A Conjurer Wizard even with prohibited spells gets a more varied selection. And at higher levels can remove one prohibited school. The Summoner does get a few spells earlier then Wizards but that doesn't make up for the lack of spells a Wizard can choose.
I mean, it doesn't really matter if the wizard gets a lot more different spells if most of them aren't worth using and you'll never prep them.
Don't forget that many things you summon come with spells of their own. This gives you access to tons of additional spells, including many the wizard never gets.
The early access spells mean the APG summoner
That was what I always felt was the broken part of the APG summoner. They're essentially a 9 level caster requiring only a 16 to unlock them. At CharGen, you put your 14* in a racial +2 to Cha and you never have to upgrade that again. You could spend the next 20 levels increasing every other stat and cast dominate monster as good as a wizard that had to put their 15* in int, racial +2 and 2 stat increases to do the same and they get it a level earlier.
Add to that that a Bard should be able to dominate monster and they can't, but a summoner can. Why I live the unchained summoner over the APG summoner.
* In this fictional character comparison, I'm assuming ability scores are 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
cast dominate monster as good as a wizard that had to put their 15* in int, racial +2 and 2 stat increases to do the same and they get it a level earlier.
Dominate monster is a spell for which the save DC matters a lot. Using that plan your summoner has a save DC 4 points lower than the wizard. The late game spells I was thinking of were the ones without save DCs e.g. spell turning, maze, greater teleport, dimensional lock. Even planar binding is riskier for a summoner than a wizard.
Breaking down the abilities of both classes shows that for the most part the summoner gets more powerful abilities.
The school abilities of the conjurer are extremely weak compared to what the summoner gets. Acid Dart is only useful at extremely low level. Summoner’s charm gives extra round per level form summoning spells, compared to minutes per level of a summoner. Dimensional step is actually pretty decent but is the only school ability that is not completely outclassed by what a summoner gets.
The summoner also gets share spells with Eidolon which means they are able to buff an already powerful companion even further. They also get bond senses, shield ally, makers call, and transposition. As other have shown their summon monster is a lot stronger than a wizards summoning spells. While a wizard can probably summon more creatures because they get more spells only the top few spell levels can summon monsters that are actually worth anything. a 13th level wizard using summon monster 1 is not adding anything to a level appropriate combat except for maybe delaying a monster for a round at best. And last but most important the summoner gets a very strong customizable companion.
It is pretty apparent that the class abilities of the summoner are much better than those of the wizard. That leaves only one thing left and that is spells.
Spells are actually the only area where the wizard has an advantage, but it is not a great as it seems. First of all the conjurer is going to have to use some of his spells to actually summon creatures. Chances are a lot of the wizards higher level spells will be focused on summon monster. A 13th level conjurer will probably use two of his three 7th level spells for summon monster. He will also probably use a decent number of his 5th and 6th level spells for this as well. That leaves him very few high level spells available for other things.
Spells selection also favors the wizard, but again is not as big as an advantage as you might think. First of all the wizard actually has to know the spell. Wizard’s unlike clerics don’t know every spell on their list. While there is no limit to the number of spells they can know they have to actually find and learn them. This takes up resources that the summoner does not need to expend. Every spell the wizard buys or copies into his book is gold the summoner can spend on something else.
The wizard also has to actually memorize his spells. A poor selection of spells can render a wizard useless for the day. So if a wizard has a good idea of what he will be facing and prepares appropriate spells they are incredibly tough to deal with. But often the wizard may not have enough information to have the perfect selection of spell. Summoners being prepared caster also face this but since their spell selection is so narrow they tend to pick spells that will always be useful. They may not always have the perfect spell, but they often have one that will work. When a spontaneous caster screws up his spell selection it renders the character useless so most experienced player are very careful about the spell their spontaneous caster pick.
So in the end the summoner has the better class abilities by far. The wizard has the edge when it comes to spell casting, but not by that much.
I'd say that they're both extremely powerful options out of the box.
I've played a conjurer from 1st to 8th in Rise of the Runelords and enjoyed it tremendously. Summoning is basically just another powerful tool in the a wizard's already exceptionally versatile toolbox. You're not necessarily winning every encounter with your summons, but sometimes you just need an augmented celestial tiger RIGHT NOW. Pairs especially well with the Acadamae graduate feat and heart of the fields alternate human racial trait.
Summoner (chained but especially vanilla) is much more specialized. You have your Eidolon, which even without building an optimized pounce monster can be extremely strong in combat. The bigger upside in my mind (vanilla summoner only) is that you can create any Eidolon you can imagine. Summon monster with minute durations and strong spontaneous spellcasting (unbalanced for vanilla) is just gravy, but you'll lack the breadth of solutions that a wizard has while outpacing them in endurance.
I'd say that they're both extremely powerful options out of the box.
I've played a conjurer from 1st to 8th in Rise of the Runelords and enjoyed it tremendously. Summoning is basically just another powerful tool in the a wizard's already exceptionally versatile toolbox. You're not necessarily winning every encounter with your summons, but sometimes you just need an augmented celestial tiger RIGHT NOW. Pairs especially well with the Acadamae graduate feat and heart of the fields alternate human racial trait.
Summoner (chained but especially vanilla) is much more specialized. You have your Eidolon, which even without building an optimized pounce monster can be extremely strong in combat. The bigger upside in my mind (vanilla summoner only) is that you can create any Eidolon you can imagine. Summon monster with minute durations and strong spontaneous spellcasting (unbalanced for vanilla) is just gravy, but you'll lack the breadth of solutions that a wizard has while outpacing them in endurance.
Yeah I agree. Personally, I think having the utility far outweighs the brute force of an Eidolon. Having a metric crapton of scrolls from the Wiz spell list is just too good to pass up.
For me, the eidolon is more of an afterthought. Most days, the summon monster SLA will give more power and utility.
Dominate monster is a spell for which the save DC matters a lot. Using that plan your summoner has a save DC 4 points lower than the wizard. The late game spells I was thinking of were the ones without save DCs e.g. spell turning, maze, greater teleport, dimensional lock. Even planar binding is riskier for a summoner than a wizard.
It was just an example I knew off the top of my head. But yes. Exactly those as well.
Eidolon (seems to be the thing everyone talks about, but is it really that good?)
It is. A properly build Eidolon can go toe-to-toe with even well build martials (a pouncing Barbarian for instance) for straight offense, actually even surpass most of them at mid levels. It's defense is generally weaker then a good martial's (my Eidolon had Iron Will, Additional Traits for Deathtouched, and Improved Iron Will), although of course the Eidolon dying is not a big problem. It's lacking non-combat abilities (apart from skills, which the Skilled evolution can make it really good at), but of course the Summoner compensates for that.
Still, Wizard is a prepared full caster with the strongest spell list in the game. A summoner is powerful enough to be on par with full casters in most combats, and even ahead in some, and has more staying power, but a Wizard is way ahead when it comes to versatility and problem solving.
What makes Summoner such a common target of animosity is not so much the class itself, but the large number of atrociously made martial classes that get outclassed by the Eidolon. Brawler, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler, and cMonk lack selectable class features, which no class in the game should lack (see the spoiler here for why that's bad). Fighter, Rogue, Cavalier, Swashbuckler, Ninja, and Samurai only have a single good save, something no pure martial class in the game should have. Rogue, Ninja, and Stalker Vigilante are even behind an Eidolon on BAB three quarters of the time because they have medium BAB, something no pure martial class in the game should have. And to add insult to injury, most of these classes also don't have an easy fix to the "can't move plus full attack" sickness that plagues the game, while Eidolon does.
The whole thing is made worse by how easy it is to build a high damage Eidolo. You only need to look at the APG Evolutions; there are no feat combinations, archetypes, multiclass options, or even other books (beyond CRB and APG) that you need to consider. And if you did pick a weak evolution, you can simply change it at next level-up, free of charge.
Eidolon (seems to be the thing everyone talks about, but is it really that good?)It is. A properly build Eidolon can go toe-to-toe with even well build martials (a pouncing Barbarian for instance) for straight offense, actually even surpass most of them at mid levels. It's defense is generally weaker then a good martial's (my Eidolon had Iron Will, Additional Traits for Deathtouched, and Improved Iron Will), although of course the Eidolon dying is not a big problem. It's lacking non-combat abilities (apart from skills, which the Skilled evolution can make it really good at), but of course the Summoner compensates for that.
Still, Wizard is a prepared full caster with the strongest spell list in the game. A summoner is powerful enough to be on par with full casters in most combats, and even ahead in some, and has more staying power, but a Wizard is way ahead when it comes to versatility and problem solving.
What makes Summoner such a common target of animosity is not so much the class itself, but the large number of atrociously made martial classes that get outclassed by the Eidolon. Brawler, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler, and cMonk lack selectable class features, which no class in the game should lack (see the spoiler here for why that's bad). Fighter, Rogue, Cavalier, Swashbuckler, Ninja, and Samurai only have a single good save, something no pure martial class in the game should have. Rogue, Ninja, and Stalker Vigilante are even behind an Eidolon on BAB three quarters of the time because they have medium BAB, something no pure martial class in the game should have. And to add insult to injury, most of these classes also don't have an easy fix to the "can't move plus full attack" sickness that plagues the game, while Eidolon does.
The whole thing is made worse by how easy it is to build a high damage...
All of this is super true, and to cap it all off, the levels where the summoner are legitimately well above the curve are generally the levels people spend the most time playing at. Sure they drop off drastically around level 11ish, but thanks to campaigns dying off, or TPKs most people play in the 4 to 8 range and thats when the eidolon most easily outperforms the party martial.
...Sure they drop off drastically around level 11ish
Do they though? Sure, the 9th level casters and munchkin builds really start to really come into their own, but against your average martial? Honestly a high level summoner can really hold their own and even excel at high levels.
Sure, a wizard or cleric may have more versatility and higher level spells, but the raw staying power that a summoner still has is hard to match.
A well built martial will mess up an eidolon within 1 round by 11th. Dealing with summons can be an issue but a properly built martial vs most summons is like feeding kittens into a wood chipper.
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A well built martial will mess up an eidolon within 1 round by 11th. Dealing with summons can be an issue but a properly built martial vs most summons is like feeding kittens into a wood chipper.
Well, once the summoner hits 13, 1d3+1 augmented aerial dire tigers pouncing at you for 5 attacks at +22 for die+10+2d6 electricity + free grapple will be difficult for MOST things to deal with. With 40ft perfect flight and 133hp each.
Well, once the summoner hits 13, 1d3+1 augmented aerial dire tigers pouncing at you for 5 attacks at +22 for die+10+2d6 electricity + free grapple will be difficult for MOST things to deal with. With 40ft perfect flight and 133hp each.
It's amazing how people get worked up about the eidolon, when these kinds of things exist. My eidolons aren't even built for combat anymore. It makes more sense to use them as scouts and skill monkeys. And just start summoning when the actual fight starts.
The above combo is also the reason I have a house rule for not summoning multiples. Not only is it borderline overpowered, but it takes a really long time to resolve that many attacks.
Whenever I have PC's playing classes with multiple summons, I have the other players take over their summons. Otherwise, the summoner's turn takes a month and the other players get bored real quick. It kills two birds with one stone.
Do they though? Sure, the 9th level casters and munchkin builds really start to really come into their own, but against your average martial?
Yes, they definitely do. While eidolons will keep pace with martials for damage output at an average optimization level, defensively they fall behind with fewer hit points, lower saves, and lower AC. Magical gear also starts to become a serious issue at about this level, as any slot your eidolon is using is one your summmoner cannot. This is most noteworthy on magical belts and cloaks.
The Summoner also starts to really feel his slower spell progression at this point. A 10th level summoner with 24 charisma gets 20 spells per day total compared to a 10th wizard with 26 intelligence having 30 per day. Even with his 10 uses of Summon Monster V his staying power is only equivalent to the Wizard. Give it one more level and the Wizard is decisively ahead.
Well, once the summoner hits 13, 1d3+1 augmented aerial dire tigers pouncing at you for 5 attacks at +22 for die+10+2d6 electricity + free grapple will be difficult for MOST things to deal with. With 40ft perfect flight and 133hp each.
Evolved Summoned Monster only works on one summoned creature per casting, so if you're doing multi-summons like this most of them are still stuck on 3 natural attacks. The rest of it works, though; Augmented Summon, Versatile Summon, and Superior Summons is a really great combo and well worth expending 4 feats.
It's amazing how people get worked up about the eidolon, when these kinds of things exist.
Yup, and there were no changes to the Summon Monster SLA in Unchained Summoner either so it works just fine for him. I still think beatstick eidolons are just fine, but you absolutely can play with a non-combat utility eidolon and use the SLA for combat instead.
The Summoner also starts to really feel his slower spell progression at this point. A 10th level summoner with 24 charisma gets 20 spells per day total compared to a 10th wizard with 26 intelligence having 30 per day. Even with his 10 uses of Summon Monster V his staying power is only equivalent to the Wizard. Give it one more level and the Wizard is decisively ahead.
Wizards are decisively ahead even before that though because they have a metric crapton of scrolls. It only takes 2 hours to create a scroll that is level 1-2. It takes 1 day to create scrolls for level 3-4, and multiple days for levels 5+. So if the Wizard has any decent amount of down time, like from traveling, he gets miles ahead in his utility, and the Summoner can't even come close in that respect.
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You can start sooner with Summon Monster 3 for a cruise missile... I mean a Cheetah. Sure it doesn't have pounce, but it can charge from 500'.
If you need pounce, Leopard is effectively the same thing as a cheetah stat-wise, but slower and with grab instead of trip. It is basically just the lower level version of your Dire Tiger. Augment Summoning, Superior Summons, and Versatile Summon Monster for Aerial. So 1d3+1 augmented aerial leopards pouncing at you for 5 attacks each at +10 for d3+5 +1 electric + free grapple. With 30' perfect flight and 19 hp each at level 7 will be hard for most things to deal with.
Starting with SM3 there's a whole chain of pouncing cats to follow. Leopard -> Lion -> Tiger -> Dire Lion -> Dire Tiger. However, at the lower levels, you're likely to do a lot more damage summoning things like Aurochs to trample the enemies instead of trying to hit with low accuracy attacks. Once you hit Tigers though, the cats are almost always your best combat option for a long time.
Evolved Summoned Monster only works on one summoned creature per casting, so if you're doing multi-summons like this most of them are still stuck on 3 natural attacks. The rest of it works, though; Augmented Summon, Versatile Summon, and Superior Summons is a really great combo and well worth expending 4 feats.
No Evolved Summoned Monster in use here. Just the other feats you mentioned. Claw/Claw/Bite/Rake/Rake, with flight and electricity damage coming from Aerial template.
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As far as spells go, for comparison sake, I have an 11th level unchained summoner in PFS, with 26 CHA. So this means his spells per day are, effectively:
1st: 7
2nd: 6
3rd: 6
4th: 4
6th: 11 (SM6)
34 total spell slots per day, not counting the fact that many of those SM6 castings can be turned into multiple additional spells by summoning things that have their own spells (which also gives the summoner access to a ton of additional spells).
What were they using Evolved Summon Monster for? I must have missed it, as I took the 5 attacks to be Bite/Claw/Claw/Rake/Rake on pounce, so base-line Dire Tiger
Rake cannot be used as part of a pounce, since you must begin your turn grappling the opponent to do it. In order to get five attacks on the pounce you'd need evolved summons for extra natural attacks.
Except that those 10 Summon Monster uses should be compared to how many max level spells the Wizard has. And goes to Summon Monster 6 when the Wizard also gets 6th level spells. Sure Wizard 6th spells are pretty awesome, but as a Summon focused Conjurer, its likely at least a few Summon Monster 6... which the Summoner gets a boat-load of.
The key advantage of a Summon-focused Wizard over a (non-master) Summoner with respects to summoning is the ability to bring out more than one casting at a time and flood the battlefield, or at very least follow-up with complementary spells. You aren't going to be fighting 10 encounters per day most of the time, so the Summoner is bottlenecked in terms of his ability to actually use all those castings. A well-played Wizard will be able to ration his resources across an adventuring day and can throttle up to full nova at any time if necessary.
The key advantage of a Summon-focused Wizard over a (non-master) Summoner with respects to summoning is the ability to bring out more than one casting at a time and flood the battlefield, or at very least follow-up with complementary spells. You aren't going to be fighting 10 encounters per day most of the time, so the Summoner is bottlenecked in terms of his ability to actually use all those castings. A well-played Wizard will be able to ration his resources across an adventuring day and can throttle up to full nova at any time if necessary.
Yep. Two SM5's from a lvl 9-10 Conjurer Wizard with Superior and Versatile Summon = 1d3+1 Aerial Lions and 1d4+2 Aerial Leopards. That's a lotta stuff to deal with.
Or 1 SM5 and 1 SM4 from a lvl 9-10 Conjurer Wizard with Superior and Versatile Summon = 1d3+1 Aerial Lions and 1d3+1 Aerial Leopards. Still a lotta stuff.
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What were they using Evolved Summon Monster for? I must have missed it, as I took the 5 attacks to be Bite/Claw/Claw/Rake/Rake on pounce, so base-line Dire TigerRake cannot be used as part of a pounce, since you must begin your turn grappling the opponent to do it. In order to get five attacks on the pounce you'd need evolved summons for extra natural attacks.
That is incorrect. The rules for Pounce specifically and clearly state otherwise.
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
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So you missed me explaining how to double up your summons every round as a summoner then. Its unlikely to have 10 combats a day, but 5 rounds of combat per day is very likely.Standard Action summons are where I find the biggest advantage. I mean, you summon as a standard and your minions take their actions. On your next turn you delay and have your minions go first, then summon a new set and have them also take their actions 'during your turn'.
Pretty much exactly this. The aforementioned wave of pouncing aerial dire tigers gets so much scarier when it's happening twice per round. That's a hell of a nova combat.
So you missed me explaining how to double up your summons every round as a summoner then. Its unlikely to have 10 combats a day, but 5 rounds of combat per day is very likely.Standard Action summons are where I find the biggest advantage. I mean, you summon as a standard and your minions take their actions. On your next turn you delay and have your minions go first, then summon a new set and have them also take their actions 'during your turn'.
Lvl 10 Summoner can use SM4 twice to get 1d3+1 Aerial Leopards from casting the actual spell too. Non-master Summoners can still "flood" a battlefield with summons. That is a pretty handy trick though.
I still say Wizards are better ;D Wizards can summon from scrolls too :D They won't be augmented or have any fancy templates, but you can still flood a battlefield just as easily :)
Lvl 10 Summoner can use SM4 twice to get 1d3+1 Aerial Leopards from casting the actual spell too. Non-master Summoners can still "flood" a battlefield with summons. That is a pretty handy trick though.Very minor nitpick, but Unchained Summoners get SM 4 as a 3rd level spell, so level 7. SM5 at 4th(lvl 10). SM6 as a 5th(lvl 13). And SM 7 as a 6th level spell(lvl 16). So the actual spell lags behind the SLA(and Wizards using max slot) by 1 level for SM5, 2 levels for SM6, and 3 levels for SM7.
Regular Summoners also get SM 4 as a 3rd level spell, so also level 7. Also SM 5 as a 4rd level spell(lvl 10), but SM 7 as a 5th(lvl 13), and SM 8 as a 6th(lvl 16). This is on par with their SLA for SM4&7, and only 1 level behind for SM5&8.
Nice :) Didn't know that :)
I mean cool, but after i murk your summoner with archery and an adaptive hornbow all that shit disappears.
I don't get into schrodingers caster games. They only work out that well in forum discussion and never in actual play.
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I don't get into schrodingers caster games. They only work out that well in forum discussion and never in actual play.
The fact that something may or may not be happening at your table does not mean it's not a thing.
The fact that cRogues suck is pretty much a consensus, but you'll always have that one "I fail to see the problem, cRogues are cool and my GM always finds something nice for them to do" person.
I don't get into schrodingers caster games. They only work out that well in forum discussion and never in actual play.The fact that something may or may not be happening at your table does not mean it's not a thing.
The fact that cRogues suck is pretty much a consensus, but you'll always have that one "I fail to see the problem, cRogues are cool and my GM always finds something nice for them to do" person.
Again, i dont play schrodingers caster games on forums because they only work out that well in forum discussion and never in actual play.
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Again, i dont play schrodingers caster games on forums because they only work out that well in forum discussion and never in actual play.I don't get into schrodingers caster games. They only work out that well in forum discussion and never in actual play.The fact that something may or may not be happening at your table does not mean it's not a thing.
The fact that cRogues suck is pretty much a consensus, but you'll always have that one "I fail to see the problem, cRogues are cool and my GM always finds something nice for them to do" person.
At your tables.