Trained and Untrained Uses - Need Clarification


Rules Discussion


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If an Ability references the "Trained Uses" of a Skill: does this interact with Skill Feat Actions that Require "Trained" (or Better) in that Skill?

For Example:
Alchemist's Research Field Chirurgeon states that "As long as your proficiency rank in Medicine is trained or better, you can attempt a Crafting check instead of a Medicine check for any of Medicine’s untrained and trained uses.". does this allow you to use the Craft Check in place of the Medicine Check in Battle Medicine's use?

For Reference, Battle Medicine States: "You can patch up yourself or an adjacent ally, even in combat. Attempt a Medicine check with the same DC as for Treat Wounds, and restore a corresponding amount of Hit Points; this does not remove the wounded condition. As with Treat Wounds, you can attempt checks against higher DCs if you have the minimum proficiency rank. The target is then temporarily immune to your Battle Medicine for 1 day.".

The confusion here stems from the fact that it has you attempt a medicine check with the same DC as treat wounds and not actually using the Treat Wounds application of the Medicine Skill.


Moine wrote:

If an Ability references the "Trained Uses" of a Skill: does this interact with Skill Feat Actions that Require "Trained" (or Better) in that Skill?

For Example:
Alchemist's Research Field Chirurgeon states that "As long as your proficiency rank in Medicine is trained or better, you can attempt a Crafting check instead of a Medicine check for any of Medicine’s untrained and trained uses.". does this allow you to use the Craft Check in place of the Medicine Check in Battle Medicine's use?

For Reference, Battle Medicine States: "You can patch up yourself or an adjacent ally, even in combat. Attempt a Medicine check with the same DC as for Treat Wounds, and restore a corresponding amount of Hit Points; this does not remove the wounded condition. As with Treat Wounds, you can attempt checks against higher DCs if you have the minimum proficiency rank. The target is then temporarily immune to your Battle Medicine for 1 day.".

The confusion here stems from the fact that it has you attempt a medicine check with the same DC as treat wounds and not actually using the Treat Wounds application of the Medicine Skill.

A use of a skill is either trained or untrained. Regardless of whether Battle Medicine is its own unique action or is a derivative of Treat wounds is kind of irrelevant. It is a use of the medicine skill. Battle Medicine is only available to users trained in Medicine, so you can infer this is a trained use, but it really shouldn't matter. Battle Medicine's unique use (whether you see it as a part of Treat Actions or not) simply isn't on the general list of medicine skills because it's gated behind a skill feat.

The Streetwise feat likewise makes Gather Information, usually a use of the Diplomacy skill, a use of Society skill.


cavernshark wrote:

A use of a skill is either trained or untrained. Regardless of whether Battle Medicine is its own unique action or is a derivative of Treat wounds is kind of irrelevant. It is a use of the medicine skill. Battle Medicine is only available to users trained in Medicine, so you can infer this is a trained use, but it really shouldn't matter. Battle Medicine's unique use (whether you see it as a part of Treat Actions or not) simply isn't on the general list of medicine skills because it's gated behind a skill feat.

The Streetwise feat likewise makes Gather Information, usually a use of the Diplomacy skill, a use of Society skill.

I hadn't thought of that. I guess that makes a lot of sense, especially when you read the Skill Trait for Feats.

"A general feat with the skill trait improves your skills and their actions or gives you new actions for a skill."

that could very easily be read as adding the Feat Skill to the list of Trained and Untrained uses.

I just wish that there was some positive clarifications that would eradicate the Table Variance for this.

Liberty's Edge

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RAW are at least slightly unclear.

I believe that, RAI, you can, and that from a balance perspective Crafting's Proficiency level should count for purposes of how much you can heal with either Treat Wounds or Battle Medicine, but the former is ambiguous and the latter even more so RAW.

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