I have decided not to grab Magic Missile as a spontaneous caster. Instead have opted for spells like Fear and various other debuffs. I may at some point grab a heightened version of Magic Missile since it is guaranteed damage, however our group already is more than capable of outputting significant damage. I instead figure if I need to try to damage an enemy, using True Strike + Telekinetic Projectile may do the trick. Comparing MM vs this, strictly comparing both 3 action uses let's say, as a level 3 spells MM would do 9D4+9 guaranteed all day long damage and consume a level 3 slot. True Strike with Telekinetic Projectile would do 3D6+4 damage and it would consume a level 1 slot. More then likely the Telekinetic Projectile would be attempted while the enemy is flat footed thus increasing the likelihood of landing even more likely with inspire courage. So I'm wondering is Telekinetic Projectile with True Strike way behind MM, or is it viable to pass on the legendary MM in favor of True Strike + Telekinetic Projectile and spend my higher level spell slots on something else?
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Sure, Magic Missile is good but it's not a must-have. Depending on what you're up against, Magic Missile gets better or worse.
Remember that Inspire Courage increases the damage of Magic Missile by 1 per target...
Magic missile is good, but not a must have. Early on, I like grabbing the buff/debuff/utility spells over the attack ones because electric arc is reasonably strong to start off with
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My bard is only using Magic Missile from my wand of manifold missiles. That particular damage option is indispensable, though.
TK projectile is good for the bard. It's hard to get the flat footed penalty onto enemies for ranged strikes since prone actually makes them harder to hit, can I ask how you're planning on getting it?
My bard is only using Magic Missile from my wand of manifold missiles. That particular damage option is indispensable, though.
TK projectile is good for the bard. It's hard to get the flat footed penalty onto enemies for ranged strikes since prone actually makes them harder to hit, can I ask how you're planning on getting it?
Enemy is likely to be grabbed by an ally. Why would I suffer a penalty to hit a prone enemy?
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Their is a potential bonus against ranged attacks, but it is no longer automaticEnemy is likely to be grabbed by an ally. Why would I suffer a penalty to hit a prone enemy?My bard is only using Magic Missile from my wand of manifold missiles. That particular damage option is indispensable, though.
TK projectile is good for the bard. It's hard to get the flat footed penalty onto enemies for ranged strikes since prone actually makes them harder to hit, can I ask how you're planning on getting it?
Source Core Rulebook pg. 621
You’re lying on the ground. You are flat-footed and take a –2 circumstance penalty to attack rolls. The only move actions you can use while you’re prone are Crawl and Stand. Standing up ends the prone condition. You can Take Cover while prone to hunker down and gain cover against ranged attacks, even if you don’t have an object to get behind, gaining a +4 circumstance bonus to AC against ranged attacks (but you remain flat-footed).If you would be knocked prone while you’re Climbing or Flying, you fall (see pages 463–464 for the rules on falling). You can’t be knocked prone when Swimming.
I'd like to believe that, within the church of Nethys, it might very well be considered a sin not to have a means of blasting your enemies with the purest form of magical force possible. It might not have to be magic missile, but you might be heavily judged for that choice.
Ya that bonus is only if you spend an action to take cover, I should be fine.
I think the comparision is off... MM is not "9D4+9 guaranteed all day long damage".
That consumes limited 3rd level slot as you noted, which are at cost of other spells you'd like to cast.
Personally I would think you would need to be desparate to cast True Strike with just a Cantrip.
Generally speaking, you are going to use True Strike on much better spells, or on weapons with good Runes.
(which is actually all day long damage, as Sorceror/Wizard that could also include Bespell 1d6)
MM is solid at what it does, and you can have it as SigSpell or just specific level where you have "room" in repertoire.
I wouldn't say it's necessary though, either because you personally have other damage options, or your party as a whole has plenty.
But I would not consider Telekinetic Projectile as replacing it, other 3rd or even 2nd level spells maybe, but not TKP.
I mean, TKP is a decent damage Cantrip you may want anyways, but equating them like this feels wrong.
(of course, at higher levels TKP would come ahead in average damage VS just 3rd level MM)
Their is a potential bonus against ranged attacks, but it is no longer automaticEnemy is likely to be grabbed by an ally. Why would I suffer a penalty to hit a prone enemy?My bard is only using Magic Missile from my wand of manifold missiles. That particular damage option is indispensable, though.
TK projectile is good for the bard. It's hard to get the flat footed penalty onto enemies for ranged strikes since prone actually makes them harder to hit, can I ask how you're planning on getting it?
Source Core Rulebook pg. 621
You’re lying on the ground. You are flat-footed and take a –2 circumstance penalty to attack rolls. The only move actions you can use while you’re prone are Crawl and Stand. Standing up ends the prone condition. You can Take Cover while prone to hunker down and gain cover against ranged attacks, even if you don’t have an object to get behind, gaining a +4 circumstance bonus to AC against ranged attacks (but you remain flat-footed).If you would be knocked prone while you’re Climbing or Flying, you fall (see pages 463–464 for the rules on falling). You can’t be knocked prone when Swimming.
Thanks for the rules quote. We've been playing that incorrectly.
I would definitely pass on it. Mm isn't a bad spell per se, but it definitely seems overrated.
Single target damage just isn't what casters are good at, debuffs or aoes are what they are better at.
I would definitely pass on it. Mm isn't a bad spell per se, but it definitely seems overrated.
Single target damage just isn't what casters are good at, debuffs or aoes are what they are better at.
Magic Missile can get to crazy damage if you combine it with Dangerous Sorcery. For me, it's a spell you can't pass on if you're a Sorcerer. For a Bard, I agree that you can forget it, as you have other excellent 1 action possibilities.
I don't think it's crazy, damage, just once per target. It has better targeting, but much less damage than fireball.
Per target, 3 1-action Magic Missile deal 3*(1d4+1+spell level). 3*spell level is equivalent to a d6 per level. As it's automatic damage (and force damage which is never resisted), it's actually very close to Fireball damage at low levels. Asymptotically, it goes to 2/3 of Fireball damage. I would not call that "much less". Of course, the real difference is the resource cost.
For example, level 9 casting 5th level spells with dangerous sorcerery:
3 1 action 5th level magic missiles (can target 3 creatures): 3*8.5 = 25.5 average damage
If you target one creature that's 46.5
Now fireball is 40, they'll save for around the same as magic missile on average probably. But you're only using one slot and you have an action left.
That damage really isn't so much for either, so it's not like you'll burst strike the encounter to death. It would be better to use a max level slot each round instead.
And if you're fighting one target I'd rather debuff than use 3 slots for just 45 damage.
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Actually a level 3 magic missile isn't 9 missiles but only 6:
Heightened (+2) You shoot one additional missile with each action you spend.
So you're comparing 3d6+4 against 6d4+6.
Magic missile always hits for an average damage of 21.
Average damage on a hit with the cantrip is 14.5, but you have to adjust the expected damage to factor in the chances of hitting and critting. You can't say that without talking about AC, but you can generally see that it's going to be lower, unless you're fighting enemies with such low AC that crit more than half the time - but that would make them so weak that it's probably a bogus encounter.
So what we're seeing is that a cantrip, even when aided by a level 1 spell, doesn't outperform a level 3 spell. Big surprise! That doesn't make the cantrip bad. It's got all-day potential even without the True Strike; it combines decently with Inspire Courage for example, and you don't lose out a lot if you only spend two actions because you also need to move. (There was less to lose because you didn't spend a spell slot.)
I think the real deciding factor is in what the two spells can do that the other can't.
* Telekinetic Projectile can be used all day. You would run out of Magic Missile if you spammed them every round.
* Telekinetic Projectile works better with Inspire Courage, and the rest of your party will also like that. If you take credit for the extra damage your party does through Inspired Courage, you might actually come out ahead of Magic Missile. (Be sure to take full credit for any attack that only hits because of your +1 to hit, and likewise any crits.)
* Magic Missile still works if you run into a boss with unreasonably high AC. This alone is a good enough reason to take it.
* Magic Missile works great if you absolutely have to hit this round, for example to take down a fleeing enemy that might warn others if it gets away.
For example, level 9 casting 5th level spells with dangerous sorcerery:
3 1 action 5th level magic missiles (can target 3 creatures): 3*8.5 = 25.5 average damage
If you target one creature that's 46.5Now fireball is 40, they'll save for around the same as magic missile on average probably. But you're only using one slot and you have an action left.
That damage really isn't so much for either, so it's not like you'll burst strike the encounter to death. It would be better to use a max level slot each round instead.
And if you're fighting one target I'd rather debuff than use 3 slots for just 45 damage.
Fireball average is 30 because of the save. So, you deal roughly the same amount of damage than a Fireball on 3 enemies. It's clearly more costly, but it has targetting advantages. I don't say it's awesome, but it's quite potent.
Magic Missile is an excellent third action, which is always an issue for pure spellcasters. But for Bards, you can pass. For Sorcerers, I don't see any other versatile one action spell on the Occult spell list (and the Arcane one, too).