DEX Urban Barbarian with dervish dance


Advice


Hi, I'm making my first Pathfinder character, and I'm considering DEX Urban Barbarian with a scimitar. I'm thinking Hobgoblin, Goblin or Human, and one consideration is how fast can I get the Dervish Dance https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat/ .

In Particular I don't understand how the requirement for 2 ranks in Perform(Dance) works.

For example as a human with 15 point buy I can go:

STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA
10/18+2/16/7/7/7
+2 DEX is from human racial ability

Then I have 4 skill points to distribute but Perform is at -2 initially. What does it mean in the requirements that I have to have 2 ranks in Perform(Dance)? Does it mean the total skill should be +2? Or just that I need to spend to skill points on Perform(Dance)?

Can I spend many skill points on Perform(Dance) at once (on the first level)? Or do I have to do it 1 by 1?

Ideally I would add 4 skill points to Perform(Dance) on the first level and get it to +2, and get Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance as my feats. Can I do that?

If no, then it doesn't make sense to go Human, because there's no good feat that I need to get early, so I probably should go for Hobgoblin

STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA
10/18+2/16+2/7/7/7

Or maybe even Goblin for +4 DEX (but then my damage dices are lower and that kinda sucks for a barbarian :) ).

Another consideration is taking Brawler as a Rage Power at level 2 - if I understand correctly I can then do 2 attacks each round - once with the Scimitar and one unarmed strike (which also benefits from Weapon Finesse). But I'm not sure if that's correct. Can Urban Barbarian even get Brawler as a Rage Power?

Any ideas how to optimize this?


ajuc wrote:

.

In Particular I don't understand how the requirement for 2 ranks in Perform(Dance) works.

You can have up to 1 skill rank in any given skill for each level you have. So if you're level 1, the max skill rank you can have in Perform(Dance) is 1 rank. Likewise, if you're level 10, the max skill rank you can have in Perform(Dance) is 10 ranks. In your case, the earliest you could satisfy this prerequisite is with 2 ranks, therefore you must be 2nd level.

ajuc wrote:
Then I have 4 skill points to distribute but Perform is at -2 initially. What does it mean in the requirements that I have to have 2 ranks in Perform(Dance)? Does it mean the total skill should be +2? Or just that I need to spend to skill points on Perform(Dance)?

You have to have 2 ranks in Perform(Dance) in order to select this feat. It doesn't matter what other modifiers you have to it, such as +3 Cha or a Trait bonus to Perform(Dance), the only thing that matters is that you have 2 skill ranks invested in Perform(Dance), that's it.

ajuc wrote:
Can I spend many skill points on Perform(Dance) at once (on the first level)? Or do I have to do it 1 by 1?

You have 4 skill points that can be put into any skills you want, and at level 1, the max you can have invested in any skill at this point is 1 rank.

ajuc wrote:


Ideally I would add 4 skill points to Perform(Dance) on the first level and get it to +2, and get Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance as my feats. Can I do that?

You cannot invest 4 skill points into any individual skill until you're level 4. You're going to have to wait until you're level 2 to put the prerequisite 2 skill ranks in Perform(Dance). Also, you cannot pick up Dervish Dance until level 3 because you get your feats at every odd level (unless you have bonus feats from your class-- like Fighter does, but as a Barbarian, you don't).

ajuc wrote:
If no, then it doesn't make sense to go Human, because there's no good feat that I need to get early, so I probably should go for Hobgoblin

You can do that if you want to, but Human is still a really good choice for race. There are other feats that you might want to pick up, like Toughness, Iron Will, Two-Weapon Fighting, etc.

ajuc wrote:


Another consideration is taking Brawler as a Rage Power at level 2 - if I understand correctly I can then do 2 attacks each round - once with the Scimitar and one unarmed strike (which also benefits from Weapon Finesse). But I'm not sure if that's correct. Can Urban Barbarian even get Brawler as a Rage Power?

Yes you can take Brawler as a Rage Power at level 2, but no you wouldn't make 2 attacks in a round unless you have the feat Two-Weapon Fighting.

ajuc wrote:


Any ideas how to optimize this?

Personally, I wouldn't do a build like this. But this is your first character, so you do you and have fun with it.

Human Urban Barbarian

Feats:
Lvl1: Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting (Human Free Feat)
Lvl2: Brawler Rage Power
Lvl3: Dervish Dance Feat
Lvl4: Lesser Beast Totem (2 Claw Attacks)
Lvl5: Raging Vitality Feat
Lvl6: Beast Totem Rage Power (Natural Armor)
Lvl7: Extra Rage
Lvl8: Superstition Rage Power (Bonus to Saves)
Lvl9: Improved Critical: Scimitar
Lvl10: Greater Beast Totem (Pounce- Full Attack on a Charge)
Lvl11: Any Feat
Lvl12: Bloody Fist Rage Power


Thank you, that clears everything up. So I'll probably go human and get Dervish at level 3, your build seems nice.

One last question - I've read somewhere that Unarmed Strike is considered a simple weapon. Does this mean that if I have Two-Weapon Fighting and Dervish Dance and I'm using a scimitar in my right hand and offhand Unarmed Strike - then Dervish Dance doesn't work for my scimitar because of the unarmed strike? That would be a boomer.


ajuc wrote:

Thank you, that clears everything up. So I'll probably go human and get Dervish at level 3, your build seems nice.

One last question - I've read somewhere that Unarmed Strike is considered a simple weapon. Does this mean that if I have Two-Weapon Fighting and Dervish Dance and I'm using a scimitar in my right hand and offhand Unarmed Strike - then Dervish Dance doesn't work for my scimitar because of the unarmed strike? That would be a boomer.

It's considered Simple for proficiency, but it's actually considered to be a Light weapon. It's minutiae, I know, but there is a difference. Take a look at Weapons and you'll see that there are Simple weapons that are Light, One-handed, Two-handed, and Ranged, and there are Martial weapons that are Light, One-handed, Two-handed, and Ranged, and there are Exotic weapons that are Light, One-handed, Two-handed, and Ranged.

Yes, the Two-Weapon Fighting + Imp Unarmed Strike and Dervish Dance should still work because Dervish Dance requires that you are not "carrying" a weapon or shield in your offhand.


Thanks, that's a character then :)

Now I just need to find him apropriate drugs to abuse for flavor :) Probably at the start of a fight Rage -> Blood Sap :)


ajuc wrote:

STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA

10/18+2/16/7/7/7

Any ideas how to optimize this?

You're going far too hard on your point buy.

Wisdom affects your will saves. The most important saving throw of them all. If you fail a will saving throw then in the best case scenario you're out of the fight. In the worst case you're under a compulsion effect and killing your allies.

Intelligence affects your total amount of skill ranks. Your intelligence modifier is applied as a bonus or penalty to your class-given skill ranks. So a barbarian with 7 intelligence only gets two skill ranks per level.

Charisma isn't that important. Dump it if you want to.

I'd go with 10/16+2/14/12/12/7 for a more well-rounded (human) character if you want to use the scimitar. But two-weapon fighting is something I'd avoid for your build since your unarmed strike has very low damage and the attack penalty from using TWF will result in less damage on average.


I agree with Wonderstell that point buy won’t be fun to play.

Grand Lodge

Concurring with the previous two posts. Starting that maxed on dex and con involves too much sacrifice on the remaining ability scores for minimal gain. What has been offered as an alternative sounds more balanced in the long run


Quote:

Human Urban Barbarian

Feats: 
Lvl1: Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting (Human Free Feat) 
Lvl2: Brawler Rage Power 
Lvl3: Dervish Dance Feat 
Lvl4: Lesser Beast Totem (2 Claw Attacks) 
Lvl5: Raging Vitality Feat 
Lvl6: Beast Totem Rage Power (Natural Armor) 
Lvl7: Extra Rage 
Lvl8: Superstition Rage Power (Bonus to Saves) 
Lvl9: Improved Critical: Scimitar 
Lvl10: Greater Beast Totem (Pounce- Full Attack on a Charge) 
Lvl11: Any Feat 
Lvl12: Bloody Fist Rage Power

Wouldn't it be better to skip 2 weapon fighting and brawler and just use the claw attack? Your claw won't great but your main attack will be better


Yeah, but this is his first character. Don't spoil his concept with promises of optimized damage output :P


Thanks everybody :) I'm used to 5e and Pathfinder is considerably more complex, I'm having a lot of fun just making the character :)

Regarding the ability score minmaxing I don't want too much skills, so INT stays at 7 I think. I'm increasing WIS but decreaseing STR (I won't really need it anyway except for the first 2 levels). Also I asked the DM and the Point Buy limit is 20 not 15. So it will be:
STR / DEX / CON / INT / WIS / CHA
8 /18+2 / 17 / 7 / 10 / 7

This means with Controlled Rage I have 24 DEX at first level and +7 to AC from that, later more. AC will be 18 with +1 cloak or sth.

At fourth level I will make CON 18 with the first ability increase so that vigor feats work better and I have more hitpoints. The next 4 ability increases go into DEX for final 24 DEX (+8 from best rage = 32) that should give me +11 to AC, attacks and damage.

Also I reconsidered the unarmed offhand fighting (I forgot TWF gives -2 tohit to the primary attack too, makes it not worth it).

Instead I will take lots of Elemental Powers (I'm a little paranoid playing melee character after dnd 5e session fighting enemies with damage immunities). I also found a fun mechanic - Vigor. It lets me heal 1d6 hitpoints 3 times a day in a few minutes after the battle (4 times on 4th level). I can also do it during a battle, but then it makes me Fatigued for 10 rounds (about that later).

So the build is:

Lvl1: Combat Vigor (3x 1d6 heal at the cost of 1 minute of fatigue each time), Weapon Finesse [Feats]
Lvl2: Elemental Blood, Lesser (3x 1d6 Lightning damage per day) [Rage Power]
Lvl3: Dervish Dance (DEX bonus to hit and damage on scimitar) [Feat]
Lvl4: Elemental Rage, Lesser (1x 1d6 energy damage per rage) [Rage Power]
Lvl5: Endurance (prerequisite) [Feat]
Lvl6: Elemental Blood (Lighting resistance 10) [Rage Power]
Lvl7: Vim And Vigor [Feat]

"Your vigor pool gains 1 vigor point. The fatigued condition that you gain from spending vigor points (as described by the Combat Vigor feat) lasts for 3 rounds instead of 1 minute. In addition, when you take this feat, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against effects that cause fatigue or exhaustion."

This would allow me to heal 5d6 hitpoints after the fight and in a pinch I could heal 2d6 in a fight and suffer 3 rounds of Fatigued (-2 isn't a big deal).

Also if I drink Desert Coffee before the fight I could ignore the Fatigued for 8h, so no penalties. Would it also allow me to use another 2d6 Vigor on consecutive round as if I wasn't Fatigued? I think not, but I'm not sure.

Also - would this feat add +2 to the Fortitude saving throws when taking drugs that cause Fatigued or Exhausted condition (like Desert Coffee or Opium)? I know these aren't that good mechanically, it's for flavor mostly. There's something about coffeinated barbarian :)

Then I'm going:

Lvl8: Elemental Rage (all melee attacks +1d6 energy damage) [Rage Power]
Lvl9: Improved Critical: Scimitar [Feat] (critical range 15-20 IIUC)
Lvl10: Elemental Blood, Greater (60ft flying speed) [Rage Power]
Lvl11: Restorative Vigor [Feat]

"Your vigor pool gains 1 vigor point. Whenever you spend vigor points, you can recover from 1d3 points of ability score damage from one physical ability score (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution) instead of regaining 1d6 hit points. You can choose separately for each vigor point spent."

At this point I can be high all the time and that should get me another +2 DEX on average from Scour and/or Blood Sap ;)

Then I get

Lvl12: Come And Get Me (enemies get bonuses to hit me and I get infinite AoO) [Rage Power]

and tank with infinite opportunity attacks with lightning damage :)


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Yeah, but this is his first character. Don't spoil his concept with promises of optimized damage output :P

Well, learning that not every complicated character concept works well in-game is part of the Pathfinder experience. The problem is not the overall power level, but that the player is likely to soon realize that not using part of their build actually makes them better (in this case not using TWF). Finding out that part of their character is now useless and wasted tends to make people feel bad.


Derklord wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Yeah, but this is his first character. Don't spoil his concept with promises of optimized damage output :P
Well, learning that not every complicated character concept works well in-game is part of the Pathfinder experience. The problem is not the overall power level, but that the player is likely to soon realize that not using part of their build actually makes them better (in this case not using TWF). Finding out that part of their character is now useless and wasted tends to make people feel bad.

I remember my first character back in 1996 like it was yesterday. He was a TWF Fighter who used Shortswords. The guy who got me into D&D was experienced and said "Dude, you invested so much into TWF, so use Longswords because it's the highest dmg you can do! It's 1d8 damage instead of 1d6 damage!" And then looked at me like I was a complete moron when I said "no I want Shortswords". I had a concept of what I would be and I wasn't going to budge. I would never want to take that naivety or innocence away from a new player, because today, there's no way in hell that I wouldn't munchkin the crap out of my character to eek out 1 additional DPR even if it spent me 100 hours of research and reconfiguring to do it. So new player? Play what you want, I don't care if he does 1.4 DPR, you do you, and have a blast doing it. Once you lose that innocence/naivety, it's lost forever.


ajuc wrote:
Any ideas how to optimize this?

See that? This "innocence/naivety" is already gone. The unarmed strike is not even a part of the character concept, the OP thought it was mechanically beneficial. Since that is a misconception, pointing that fact out is necessary to prevent frustration.

Quite frankly, you were making assumptions instead of going by actual information. You shouldn't criticize people for asking - even if the non-weapon attack with the second hand was an integral part of the concept, a claw attack might completly satisfy that desire.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Yeah, but this is his first character. Don't spoil his concept with promises of optimized damage output :P

I dont think it's so much optimized as wasting 2 feats and doing the same thing twice.

2 feats to do an unarmed strike or claws your buying ANYWAYS.

That's not optimizing it's just... why waste 2 feats?

Nor is it stopping their build.. it was your build suggestion I'm questioning.

Grand Lodge

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Yeah, but this is his first character. Don't spoil his concept with promises of optimized damage output :P

If it was any class with bonus (combat) feats, I wouldn't worry that much. The barbarian doesn't have that luxury though, hence turning the problem from "optimization" to "common sense". Barbarians need feats to fuel their rage or anything else.

The other problem would be about equipment. It's more difficult to find the good armour with a dex build than with a str variant.

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