Training weapon enhancement and shields


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

The Training weapon enhancement can be applied on a weapon which is "drawn and in hand".

A shield can be enhanced as a weapon and, once drawn, is worn by strapping it "to your forearm and grip it with your hand".

To me it seems that a shield fits the definition of a weapon which is drawn and in hand for the purposes of the Training weapon enhancement. What do you think?


Seems legit.
The only remark I could make is that you can't use a shield as both a weapon and a shield without specific feats. But that's my "DM interpretation".


If you enchant it like a weapon and it fits in your hand it's legit.


I would say yes. If your DM says no, then take Improved Shield Bash, and then there's no possible way your DM can argue it's not a weapon.


Shields are both weapons and armor. Enchanting them is much like enchanting double weapons, except that one set of enchants only affects them as armor while the other affects them only as a weapon. So, yes you can add the training enchantment to a shield but it must be added as a weapon enchantment.

So if you wanted to add training to a +5 Bashing Steel Shield, you would need to make it a +5/+1 Bashing Steel Shield of ____ Training. Paying the cost for a +1 base weapon enchantment on top of the cost for the training enchantment.

Also, do note, that a buckler cannot be enchanted in this manner, even with the upsetting style feat to allow using a buckler as a weapon, the buckler itself is still only considered armor and as such cannot be enchanted as a weapon.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Chell Raighn wrote:
Also, do note, that a buckler cannot be enchanted in this manner, even with the upsetting style feat to allow using a buckler as a weapon, the buckler itself is still only considered armor and as such cannot be enchanted as a weapon.

GMs vary.

Many would be fine allowing you to enchant a frying pan, let alone a buckler, with a +1 weapon enhancement bonus and other abilities if you wanted to.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
Also, do note, that a buckler cannot be enchanted in this manner, even with the upsetting style feat to allow using a buckler as a weapon, the buckler itself is still only considered armor and as such cannot be enchanted as a weapon.

GMs vary.

Many would be fine allowing you to enchant a frying pan, let alone a buckler, with a +1 weapon enhancement bonus and other abilities if you wanted to.

As far as I know, the only requirement for enchanting something is whether it's masterwork or not.

Edit: Nvm, the rule says anything that is enchanted is "considered" masterwork... so I guess commonplace things like frying pans *can* be enchanted /shrug

Silver Crusade

Ryze Kuja wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
Also, do note, that a buckler cannot be enchanted in this manner, even with the upsetting style feat to allow using a buckler as a weapon, the buckler itself is still only considered armor and as such cannot be enchanted as a weapon.

GMs vary.

Many would be fine allowing you to enchant a frying pan, let alone a buckler, with a +1 weapon enhancement bonus and other abilities if you wanted to.

As far as I know, the only requirement for enchanting something is whether it's masterwork or not.

Edit: Nvm, the rule says anything that is enchanted is "considered" masterwork... so I guess commonplace things like frying pans *can* be enchanted /shrug

Mwk weapons grant a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and can be enchanted as magical weapons.

Mwk armors grant a -1 ACP and can be enchanted as magical armors.

A mwk frying pan is neither a weapon nor an armor: at best, it is a tool which grants +2 circumstance bonus to a related skill (e.g. Profession [cook]). This does not mean it can be enchanted as a masterwork weapon, not because it is not masterwork, but because it is not a weapon.

It can be used as an improvised weapon, but it still does not count as an actual weapon, which is why Gloves of Improvised Might exist. Even if it counted as a manufactured weapon for a certain user (via feats such as Improvisational Focus), it would still not count as such for the purposes of effects that directly affect the object, such as enchanting.

This is the same as a Warhammer not qualifying for the Keen enchantment despite its user having the Weapon Versatility feat: just because a thing can be used as X, it is still not X.

Shields, on the other hand, are explicitly called out as weapons (they even appear in the weapons table).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Gray Warden wrote:
A mwk frying pan is neither a weapon nor an armor: at best, it is a tool which grants +2 circumstance bonus to a related skill (e.g. Profession [cook]). This does not mean it can be enchanted as a masterwork weapon, not because it is not masterwork, but because it is not a weapon.

If you injure someone by bashing them over the head with a frying pan then you are using it as a weapon... not a cooking implement.

There is no reason a "tool" cannot be made into a masterwork weapon and enchanted. Indeed, many 'standard' weapons are simply tools (e.g. scythe, sickle, trident, net, etc) being used for combat. Heck, a quarterstaff can be just a piece of wood you picked up off the ground... which is why they have no cost.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Gray Warden wrote:
A mwk frying pan is neither a weapon nor an armor: at best, it is a tool which grants +2 circumstance bonus to a related skill (e.g. Profession [cook]). This does not mean it can be enchanted as a masterwork weapon, not because it is not masterwork, but because it is not a weapon.

If you injure someone by bashing them over the head with a frying pan then you are using it as a weapon... not a cooking implement.

There is no reason a "tool" cannot be made into a masterwork weapon and enchanted. Indeed, many 'standard' weapons are simply tools (e.g. scythe, sickle, trident, net, etc) being used for combat. Heck, a quarterstaff can be just a piece of wood you picked up off the ground... which is why they have no cost.

I'm suddenly reminded of the movie Tangled with Rapunzel and Flynn Ryder running around with a +1 Frying Pan.


It seems really metagamey to not be able to enchant improvised weapons as weapons. Why can a sickle be a "weapon" but a hoe can't? And then say someone puts out a book where the hoe is listed as a weapon. Then suddenly it can be enchanted where it couldn't before? That's super metagamey.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

It has never been clear to me if the Training property is 'use activated' (like the Defending property) or not. If it is, then you actually have to use your Training weapon as a weapon for the property to function.

As said above, DMs vary, best to ask ahead of time.

Silver Crusade

Quote:
There is no reason a "tool" cannot be made into a masterwork weapon and enchanted.

The reason being: this is how the rules work. Can you enchant a +1 Flaming Haramaki as a weapon just because you could throw it? No, you cannot.

Quote:
Indeed, many 'standard' weapons are simply tools (e.g. scythe, sickle, trident, net, etc) being used for combat. Heck, a quarterstaff can be just a piece of wood you picked up off the ground... which is why they have no cost.

Just because some tools are also weapons, it doesn't mean that all tools are also weapons.

Melkiador wrote:
It seems really metagamey to not be able to enchant improvised weapons as weapons. Why can a sickle be a "weapon" but a hoe can't? And then say someone puts out a book where the hoe is listed as a weapon. Then suddenly it can be enchanted where it couldn't before? That's super metagamey.

Why can a sickle be used without the -4 penalty to hit but a hoe cannot without expending additional resources? Again, that's how the rules work. Improvised weapons are treated differently and cannot be enchanted like standard weapons, which is why Gloves of Improvised Might exist, and which is also why a +1 Longspear used as an improvised weapon to threaten adjacent squares does not add its weapon enhancement when used so (despite the enhancement applying to the actual physical object)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Gray Warden wrote:
The reason being: this is how the rules work.

...according to you.

Many people disagree with your interpretation.

Silver Crusade

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CBDunkerson wrote:
Gray Warden wrote:
The reason being: this is how the rules work.

...according to you.

Many people disagree with your interpretation.

According to rules, which are quite consistent on the matter: improvised weapons are not weapons, and if you disagree you should provide rule-based evidence instead of in real life or ad populum arguments.

Facts:
- you are not proficient with improvised weapons even with Catch Off-Guard or similar features removing the -4 penalty to hit, unless you have the Improvisational Focus feat;
- you need the Improvisational Focus feat also to select weapon-specific feats, specifically those having Weapon Focus as prerequisite (so, not even all weapon-specific feats, such as Improved Critical);
- there is no weapon group encompassing improvised weapons;
- Gloves of Improvised Might specifically grant weapon enhancements to improvised weapons;
- there is even a FAQ stating that a weapon used as an improvised one does not benefit from the weapon enchantments.

None of these rules would exist if improvised weapons were treated as standard weapons by default. I am sure you and "many people" will come up with some convoluted explanations, but the simplest one is that indeed improvised weapons are not equivalent to standard weapons for the purposes of feats and weapon enchantments.

Can you provide a single example of an improvised weapon enchanted as a proper weapon over the entirety of published Paizo material?


Gray Warden wrote:


Can you provide a single example of an improvised weapon enchanted as a proper weapon over the entirety of published Paizo material?

It's not actually possible. Anything enchanted like a weapon becomes considered a weapon and is no longer an improvised weapon. Theoretically, even the +1 Frying Pan we were joking about earlier would become considered a weapon and no longer an improvised weapon as soon as it received the enchant.

Silver Crusade

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Gray Warden wrote:


Can you provide a single example of an improvised weapon enchanted as a proper weapon over the entirety of published Paizo material?

It's not actually possible. Anything enchanted like a weapon becomes considered a weapon and is no longer an improvised weapon. Theoretically, even the +1 Frying Pan we were joking about earlier would become considered a weapon and no longer an improvised weapon as soon as it received the enchant.

Ah-ha, but you see, now it's not an improvised weapon anymore! You actually have to use weapon stats to make it work, and it is now essentially a reskin of an actual weapon.

Mechanically speaking, you are using a light mace (or any other weapon you want to use as its base) that you describe as a frying pan, nothing wrong with it, but for all intends and purposes it's a light mace (including proficiency and feats purposes), and not an improvised weapon.


Disclaimer :I know some of you will say this example is irrelevant because it comes from a 3rd party APP

Magic item from Rappan Athuk
The spork is enchanted to detect poison once per day, and can be used as a +1 magic weapon, although it inflicts only 1d2 points of damage with a successful hit.


Gray Warden wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Gray Warden wrote:


Can you provide a single example of an improvised weapon enchanted as a proper weapon over the entirety of published Paizo material?

It's not actually possible. Anything enchanted like a weapon becomes considered a weapon and is no longer an improvised weapon. Theoretically, even the +1 Frying Pan we were joking about earlier would become considered a weapon and no longer an improvised weapon as soon as it received the enchant.

Ah-ha, but you see, now it's not an improvised weapon anymore! You actually have to use weapon stats to make it work, and it is now essentially a reskin of an actual weapon.

Mechanically speaking, you are using a light mace (or any other weapon you want to use as its base) that you describe as a frying pan, nothing wrong with it, but for all intends and purposes it's a light mace (including proficiency and feats purposes), and not an improvised weapon.

Yeah, I wasn't arguing with you, I'm agreeing with you. Improvised weapons by RAW definition are anything that is used in combat that was not crafted with intention to be used in combat. So if it doesn't appear on the weapon list, or if it was not created using the Weapon Creation rules, then it's not a weapon; it is therefore an improvised weapon.


WabbitHuntr wrote:

Disclaimer :I know some of you will say this example is irrelevant because it comes from a 3rd party APP

Magic item from Rappan Athuk
The spork is enchanted to detect poison once per day, and can be used as a +1 magic weapon, although it inflicts only 1d2 points of damage with a successful hit.

It really just comes down to the intention of the creator/wielder. Is it intended to be used in combat as a weapon? It's considered a +1 magic weapon in the description, so the creator/enchanter clearly intended for it to be used in combat as a weapon. Therefore yes, it's a weapon. You'd have a +1 to attack and damage, and as long as you have proficiency with it you wouldn't suffer a minus to hit. Also, you'd have a +1 to stab your mac n cheese.


What do the last n posts have to do with shields?

Silver Crusade

blahpers wrote:
What do the last n posts have to do with shields?

Ask the one who started talking about frying pans.


blahpers wrote:
What do the last n posts have to do with shields?

I think we're establishing the logic that if Gray Warden enchants his shield with weapon enchantments rather than shield enchantments, and intends for it to be a weapon, then it is in fact a weapon, and would qualify for the Training enchantment.


Which I would agree with though bucklers become a sticky area.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

We seem to have gone from, 'you cannot make an improvised weapon into a masterwork or enchanted weapon', to 'when you make an improvised weapon into a masterwork or enchanted weapon it no longer counts as improvised'.

I agree with that, but could still see GMs reasonably concluding otherwise. However, thank you for conceding the original point... bucklers (and frying pans) can be made into magic weapons.

Silver Crusade

CBDunkerson wrote:

We seem to have gone from, 'you cannot make an improvised weapon into a masterwork or enchanted weapon', to 'when you make an improvised weapon into a masterwork or enchanted weapon it no longer counts as improvised'.

I agree with that, but could still see GMs reasonably concluding otherwise. However, thank you for conceding the original point... bucklers (and frying pans) can be made into magic weapons.

They can't. It would be a GM call to say "alright, you can have a +1 light mace and describe it as a buckler, but it's still a light mace, so forget the +1 AC, since it's not an actual buckler". Same with any other "weapon" which is not explicitly encoded in the weapon table: "alright, you can have a +1 light mace and describe it as a frying pan, but forget the extra damage coming from Shikigami Style feats, since it's not an actual improvised weapon".

There is a profound difference between reskinning a weapon into another object, and making any object an actual weapon.


Here's the difference:

You wake up in the Tavern's Inn and head downstairs to get some breakfast. You're unarmed and unarmored and dressed in your normal clothes. While you're ordering breakfast in the Tavern's dining area, an orc shoves you from behind and shouts "Oi! Ye owe meh money ye dirty scum!" You say "Hey fella, there's been some kind of misunderstanding." He shouts "Liar!" and attempts to tackle you. Both of you roll initiative and you go first. You see a frying pan on the bar, so you grab it and swing at the orc. This is an improvised weapon.

After combat with the orc, you decide the frying pan is a pretty nifty beatstick. So you purchase it from the tavern, begin practicing combat with it, and even enchant it with a +1 to attack and damage. This is now a weapon.


So you're saying a weapon enchant that only goes on weapons makes it a weapon,

and gray warden thinks that it can't be a weapon because you can only enchant weapons with weapon enchantments and that doesn't make it a weapon to do so.

And I agree with gret warden. You can't put flaming on a library and call it a weapon.


I'm saying it's up to the intent of the wielder as to whether it's a weapon or not. The same thing would apply to a tavern's barstool or a beer stein. If you carry it around with you and wade into combat with the intention of using it like a weapon, it's a weapon. It's no longer improvised. It's up to the GM to give that weapon appropriate stats based on whatever weapon the barstool or beer stein most closely resembles, such as a warhammer (barstool) or a light mace (beer stein).

Silver Crusade

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Using that same logic, in Gray Warden's shield example, he's planning on using that thing as a weapon. It's no longer a shield, it's a weapon. He's enchanting it like a weapon, and he's carrying it into combat with the intention of swinging it around like a weapon. It's up to the GM to give that thing stats.

A light or heavy shield is both a shield and a weapon, and by RAW can be enchanted both with armor AND weapon magic properties, which will apply independently depending on its use. The rules you quoted literally say this: the two sets of enchantments (armor/shield and weapon) are independent and do not interact with each other. Shields appear as entries both in the Armors and Shields table, as well as in the Weapons table: no GM call is needed to determine the shield's stats as a weapon since they are already encoded in the game. Bucklers and Tower Shields, on the other hand, are explicitly excluded from being weapons.

None of this applies to improvised weapons, which are not standard weapons and follow their own rules, the same way natural weapons (you cannot craft a +1 Bite) or splash weapons (you cannot craft a +1 Acid Flask) do.

Quote:
If I was his GM, I would say it deals the same damage as a light or heavy mace, but no longer provides an AC bonus unless he fights defensively with it (like the Blocking property for weapons). Feats that affect shields would also not apply to it. For all intents and purposes, it's no longer considered a shield, it's a weapon, and any applicable weapon feats would now apply to it.

None of this makes sense. Shield bash is a thing, and does not work like that at all.


Gray Warden wrote:


None of this makes sense. Shield bash is a thing, and does not work like that at all.

Remember my original response.

Ryze Kuja wrote:
I would say yes. If your DM says no, then take Improved Shield Bash, and then there's no possible way your DM can argue it's not a weapon.

Somewhere we got sidetracked into talking about weapons vs. improvised weapons.


My contention is that a Buckler can be enchanted as a weapon. If the character has the ability to use a Buckler as a weapon then he can do so w/o penalty otherwise it is an improvised weapon.

Upsetting Shield style and Rondelero Swashbuckler give the ability to use bucklers as weapon.

But if you want RAW, just add the Folding enchantment to a shield bashing shield and turn it into a buckler

folding:
PFS Legal Folding
Source Armor Master's Handbook pg. 30
Aura strong conjuration and transmutation CL 13th
Slot shield quality; Price +1 bonus; Weight —
Description
On command, a folding shield transforms to take on the form of another shield. As a move action, the wearer of a folding shield can change the shield from its current form into a buckler, heavy shield, or tower shield. The wearer of a folding shield must be proficient with the type of shield into which he wishes to transform the folding shield.

And since that ability is undeniably RAW it seems a little ridiculous to simply not allow a Buckler to be enchanted as a weapon w/o having to jump through this hoop


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WabbitHuntr wrote:

My contention is that a Buckler can be enchanted as a weapon. If the character has the ability to use a Buckler as a weapon then he can do so w/o penalty otherwise it is an improvised weapon.

Upsetting Shield style and Rondelero Swashbuckler give the ability to use bucklers as weapon.

But if you want RAW, just add the Folding enchantment to a shield bashing shield and turn it into a buckler

** spoiler omitted **

And since that ability is undeniably RAW it seems a little ridiculous to simply not allow a Buckler to be enchanted as a weapon w/o having to jump through this hoop

Once you turn iyour weapon-enchanted folding shield into a buckler it is no longer a weapon and therefore can't benefit from effects that only apply to weapons..

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