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A familiar is about as good at scouting as it is at setting off lethal traps.
Do not recommend.
A familiar is about as good at scouting as it is at setting off lethal traps.
Do not recommend.
Justification for this stance?
My concern (for any familiar) would be it being noticed any place where an animal of its type isn't normal. Or if it's behaving in a abnormal way.
Scouting inside a dungeon? Big negative. Even if the NPCs don't know what it is, they aren't likely to want an animal coming into their dungeon, if they can control it. Maybe rats or spiders could get by, but probably not birds. And certainly not an owl flying around during the day.
Scouting the forest, sure, not going to be a problem.
I guess the point I'm making is that, while a familiar certainly can scout, if it encounters any traps or hostile enemies its almost certainly dead.
As a GM, I would not hesitate to kill your familiar if you send it out alone into an environment it doesn't belong. Especially when people of the world would be aware that some wizards (and others) have magical relationships with their animals and that it could be a scout.
Imagine if in our world we knew factually that any dog or cat could be a spy for our enemy.
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Justification for this stance?A familiar is about as good at scouting as it is at setting off lethal traps.
Do not recommend.
What Zergor wrote.
Having had a kitty cat in the playtest (with no noteworthy changes to familiars upon formal release), I can vouch it was a struggle to keep them alive, much less have them take point. First action was to order the cat to run! And a familiar's Stealth competes poorly w/ the Perception of enemies, and its defenses/h.p. cannot contend with traps or a hungry monster.I will step back a little to acknowledge their usefulness in environments where the familiar's presence would be typical as well as not subject to predators or hunting. Ex. At a social gathering, the cat was useful in scouting out rooms otherwise off limits to the party and then reporting back. Yay. Yet, there was little I could've done had it stumbled upon a level appropriate challenge.
And frankly, given the nature of the universe, guards & such should have a "shoot on sight" order for all innocuous-seeming critters poking about.
Expect massive table variation. Which means, since it sounds like this is for a home game, discuss it with your GM. The GM is the ONLY person who can tell you how they are interpreting the minion and exploration rules.
Indeed. Some folks on these boards want to put familiars on a "2-action leash" from their masters, not allowing them to venture beyond 2 actions worth of movement without orders.
Other DMs are willing to let the master issue a command, which the familiar will then take as long as necessary to carry out - well beyond the 2-action limit of the minion rules for encounter mode.
I could never tell if those folks really held that restrictive view, or if they were just making a redictio ad absurdum argument, in an effort to get Paizo to specify what familiars can and can't do outside of encounter mode.
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I could never tell if those folks really held that restrictive view
Well, I've played in games that were run that way and the exploration section makes no mention of being able to break those minion rules so it's not surprising that some DM's actually follow it: after all it seems REALLY odd that switching to exploration mode somehow allows a familiar to follow complex tasks but once you start a fight it gets dumb and needs content attention every few seconds or it just stands there and looks dumb...
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I could never tell if those folks really held that restrictive viewWell, I've played in games that were run that way and the exploration section makes no mention of being able to break those minion rules so it's not surprising that some DM's actually follow it: after all it seems REALLY odd that switching to exploration mode somehow allows a familiar to follow complex tasks but once you start a fight it gets dumb and needs content attention every few seconds or it just stands there and looks dumb...
We are supposed to be looking at it a different way. The minion rules are intended to reduce the action advantage that having multiple characters in a battle provides. It's an artificial system that doesn't stand up to rational analysis, whose only purpose is to limit the master's action advantage.
Outside of combat (outside of encounter mode) there is no longer any reason to be concerned about the action advantage of a PC with a minion, whether it is a familiar, an animal companion, some undead critter or whatever.
It's not a question of being able to follow complex tasks. Not as it's currently defined, anyway. I haven't yet seen the GMG, but I know some of us were hoping for clarification on familiar issues from it.
You're not both trying to be murdered in exploration mode.
I'm not sure what that has to do with how well they can take instructions. What about combat makes them forget commands after a few seconds? What about exploration mode somehow expands their instruction following capabilities? Nothing in the rules mentions any of those things.
We are supposed to be looking at it a different way. The minion rules are intended to reduce the action advantage that having multiple characters in a battle provides. It's an artificial system that doesn't stand up to rational analysis, whose only purpose is to limit the master's action advantage.
Outside of combat (outside of encounter mode) there is no longer any reason to be concerned about the action advantage of a PC with a minion, whether it is a familiar, an animal companion, some undead critter or whatever.
That might very well be true... However, it's left unsaid: as such, it's an assumption on your part as to why it's in place and whether it's meant to stop in exploration. Having an "action advantage" happens in both modes as you can normally only take a single action on exploration mode too but allowing familiars to scout means you get twice as many so it seems if a limit is valid in one, it should be equally valid in the other mode. If you follow the Improvising New Activities section, someone with a familiar should spend their action to control the familiar every round [consists of a single action repeated roughly 10 times per minute] of exploration if they want it to do an action every round[consists of a single action repeated roughly 10 times per minute]. This is inconsistent with a familiar and a master both having access to independent actions on exploration mode.
It's not a question of being able to follow complex tasks. Not as it's currently defined, anyway. I haven't yet seen the GMG, but I know some of us were hoping for clarification on familiar issues from it.
I don't know why you say it's NOT about complex tasks: nothing is in the rules that tells you that they can complete any task that extends past a single rounds actions. Not one single thing. Now if the GMG changes that, great but I can only go on what I've seen in the rules.
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You're not both trying to be murdered in exploration mode.I'm not sure what that has to do with how well they can take instructions. What about combat makes them forget commands after a few seconds? What about exploration mode somehow expands their instruction following capabilities? Nothing in the rules mentions any of those things.
The "no one is actively trying to kill you" part.
Is Exploration Mode measured in Rounds and Actions? No.
Yes, actions are: all you have to do is look at the Improvising New Activities section.
"If a player wants to do something not covered by other rules, here are some guidelines.": since command a minion isn't a listed exploration activity, this would be where you look.
"If the activity is similar to an action someone could use in an encounter, such as Avoid Notice, it usually consists of a single action repeated roughly 10 times per minute (such as using the Sneak action 10 times)": command a minion is "an action someone could use in an encounter" that "consists of a single action repeated roughly 10 times per minute". Following the guidelines means that it's no different from encounter mode that the player has to spend actions to command a familiar and that command works the same as the one used in encounter mode. If you do something different you're ignoring the guidelines and that doesn't seem like an intended result and should have an explicit exception noted if that's how it's meant to be played.
The "no one is actively trying to kill you" part.
Please point out the section of the game that gives rules for "no one is actively trying to kill you" exception for familiar commands...
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You can use things that are Actions in Exploration Mode, that doesn’t mean Exploration Mode is measured in Rounds and Actions. Or do you also scrutinize player’s actions in Exploration and Downtime Mode, going over single move “action” and the like?
Please point out the section of the game that gives rules for "no one is actively trying to kill you" exception for familiar commands...
It’s called Exploration Mode.
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I'd also like an explicit clarification of how minions are supposed to work outside of combat, because this is all pretty inconsistent and a GM would be fair to rule it either way.
Also reminds me of how riding a horse in exploration would be very exhausting because you're spending multiple actions on "Command an Animal" every 6 seconds.
Minions just get really silly outside of combat, it's a mess.
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It gets silly if you don’t use common sense.
Minion rules for animals aren't common sense either (I can buy it for summons), but we apply them because it's the rules, set there to ensure balance over realism.
I'd also love for animals to not become SF drones as soon as someone tames them, but alas.
Minion rules for animals aren't common sense either (I can buy it for summons), but we apply them because it's the rules, set there to ensure balance over realism.
Yep: nothing say "common sense" like a companion animal never being able to catch up to the same type of animal because it's a minion and only has 2/3rds the actions. It's also "common sense" in the rules that unless you tell your minion to do a continuing action like "attack" that you have to KEEP yelling at it or it just sits there and looks dumb... If I tell my wolf companion or monkey familiar to fetch something, as soon as it's out or hearing range, it's a lump sitting there... "Common sense" left the building LONG ago with minion rules, so relying on that to explain them in exploration mode seems like sheer folly to me.
If they don't follow "common sense" in combat, why would/should they out of combat? Why is it more "silly" out of combat? I just don't get that argument...
Or just continue arguing in bad faith extremes, okay.
LOL What was said in bad faith? Your point is we should ignore the guidelines cuz "common sense" and I disagree and gave examples of action economy in both in exploration and encounter modes: bad faith is expecting people to agree people with pets should get twice the action economy cuz you think they should with nothing to back it up but feelings. :(
Please point out what you think is bad faith and why: I'd really curious what was said that comes even close.
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I have to side with Rysky here actually. Restricting Characters to only using "Actions" as printed for use with the Combat Encounter rules during exploration is going too far and trying to justify enforcing those guidelines is akin to forcing your players to announce three Stride Actions while they're walking in a straight line to a destination outside of combat.
Wow guys. Seriously, the rules has this covered. And Graystone already posted it.
"If a player wants to do something not covered by other rules, here are some guidelines.": since command a minion isn't a listed exploration activity, this would be where you look.
"If the activity is similar to an action someone could use in an encounter, such as Avoid Notice, it usually consists of a single action repeated roughly 10 times per minute (such as using the Sneak action 10 times)": command a minion is "an action someone could use in an encounter" that "consists of a single action repeated roughly 10 times per minute". Following the guidelines means that it's no different from encounter mode that the player has to spend actions to command a familiar and that command works the same as the one used in encounter mode. If you do something different you're ignoring the guidelines and that doesn't seem like an intended result and should have an explicit exception noted if that's how it's meant to be played.
Not constraining Familiars to Minion Combat restrictions during non-combat Modes is not “ignoring guidelines”.
It 100% IS. "If the activity is similar to an action someone could use in an encounter, such as Avoid Notice, it usually consists of a single action repeated roughly 10 times per minute" Commanding a minion falls squarely in the guidelines as an exploration action. If action economy matters, why do you think the minion user should ignore that and get twice the actions in exploration mode?
Point out the rules stating they can’t function on their own at all outside of combat instead of accusing people of cheating for using common sense.
I DID: Improvising New Activities. You look it see "If the activity is similar to an action someone could use in an encounter": so command a minion. The burden for it working differently in exploration is your burden, not mine. Avoid Notice is a Sneak "repeated roughly 10 times per minute". The rules for it don't radically change in exploration.
"An activity using a quicker pace, corresponding to roughly 20 actions per minute, might have limited use or cause fatigue, as would one requiring intense concentration." As commanding a minion and doing something would fall under this, either something is of limited use or the PC get fatigued.
I have to side with Rysky here actually. Restricting Characters to only using "Actions" as printed for use with the Combat Encounter rules during exploration is going too far and trying to justify enforcing those guidelines is akin to forcing your players to announce three Stride Actions while they're walking in a straight line to a destination outside of combat.
It's NOT about micromanaging each action but managing the effort put forth for the actions you are taking. They break down exploration actions by how much effort they take during an action round: 1 action can be done non-stop. 2 actions requires limited use or fatigued after 10 min. 3 actions can't be done. Commanding a minion is a single action you have to take every round which means it's the only one you can take without limitations or fatigue: that's just the way they set it up. Action economy is as important in both encounter mode and exploration mode and they made that clear in the Improvising New Activities sidebar: they clearly wanted to limit how many actions you can take and exploration activities are based that on your combat actions if they exist. Command a minion exists hence you base the activity on it.
You do not.
That sure is an eloquent comeback to... something. I'm not sure what you're referring to but you sure told someone something...
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Honestly, it never occurred to me that the the restriction on in combat actions for minions wouldn't apply outside of them.
I mean, it's kind of annoying that I can't just tell my minion to attack an enemy and they stop doing it after 6 seconds if I don't remind them, but those are the rules.
Based on that, common sense (of the game rules) would actually imply to me you absolutely have to spend your exploration activity on making your familiar do stuff. Or else they're going to stop after 6 seconds.
Otherwise I would definitely need some sort of clarification that says:
"Nah bro it's cool, when your minion isn't under pressure they can think clearly and don't need you to hold their hand...errr paw. Or wing. Or whatever."
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Are people forgetting that Exploration mode totally eschews the need to declare or use Actions as printed for use with Encounter mode? This is outlined in the very first paragraph of the Exploration Mode rules... it's spelled out very clearly and it's not a "may" type situation that even enables you to choose if you use the Encounter rules. The wording seems rather authoritative in this regard and I see no reason why a Familiar or other Companion should ever be required to follow the Encounter Action economy during this mode of play:
"Rather than deciding on each action every turn, you'll engage in an exploration activity, and you'll typically spend some time every day resting and making your daily preparations."
As I see it if one wants to argue that Familiars can only EVER act when you Command them as 1 Action then it is literally impossible to control your Familiar in this mode of play. Scout is explicitly listed as one of the Exploration Mode activities along with Search, Investigate and several others.
Are people forgetting that Exploration mode totally eschews the need to declare or use Actions as printed for use with Encounter mode?
No it doesn't: activities other than those presented are based off of actions if possible. It very, very clearly says that the intent is for actions "repeated roughly 10 times per minute" to be the basic/normal for unrepresented activities.
"Rather than deciding on each action every turn, you'll engage in an exploration activity, and you'll typically spend some time every day resting and making your daily preparations."
Yes, and Improvising New Activities tells you how to adjudicate new activities: looking at the section, the activities ARE based on "repeated" actions.
As I see it if one wants to argue that Familiars can only EVER act when you Command them as 1 Action then it is literally impossible to control your Familiar in this mode of play.
No, it's quite simple: it's an action "repeated roughly 10 times per minute". So it falls under the guidelines. This means they can do no other actions while they command the familiar. If they want to do something like move and command then after ten minutes you get fatigued. It really is clearly presented how to adjudicate it and what the intent is. I really can't see how someone can read the Improvising New Activities section and come to another conclusion: otherwise you are kind of throwing out the whole mode as you're ignoring the limitations on activities and action economy.
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Are people forgetting that Exploration mode totally eschews the need to declare or use Actions as printed for use with Encounter mode? This is outlined in the very first paragraph of the Exploration Mode rules... it's spelled out very clearly and it's not a "may" type situation that even enables you to choose if you use the Encounter rules. The wording seems rather authoritative in this regard and I see no reason why a Familiar or other Companion should ever be required to follow the Encounter Action economy during this mode of play:
"Rather than deciding on each action every turn, you'll engage in an exploration activity, and you'll typically spend some time every day resting and making your daily preparations."
As I see it if one wants to argue that Familiars can only EVER act when you Command them as 1 Action then it is literally impossible to control your Familiar in this mode of play. Scout is explicitly listed as one of the Exploration Mode activities along with Search, Investigate and several others.
Right, but if the master is required during combat to constantly direct their pet I have to imagine that they're required to do so outside as well.
And if you let the character command the minion and take another exploration activity you're letting them do twice as much as anyone else.
I think the closest anyone else can get is using the Legendary Sneak feat which lets you also Avoid Notice while taking any other exploration activity. That's a Legendary proficiency requirement.
We shouldn't be giving extra exploration actions for free.
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First, you're failing to note that the Familiar Section notes that you need to use the Command Action during, and I stress, "in an encounter."
Trying to justify the need to use the Command Action (Something that is codified for Encounter Turns ONLY) during Exploration mode does not make sense, you might even note how this actually DIFFERS from the wording for Animal Companions which are dumb animals by comparison.
As sapient creatures, they should almost certainly be able to behave as the Minion Trait indicates, as they please. If the player who controls the PC doesn't have control over their Familiar then I cannot reasonably fathom who can or ever should be able to dictate this. Otherwise, you're saying that outside of Encounters and after 1 minute of being uncommanded that all Minions revert to the control of the GM until another Command action is given.
This is absurd, honestly. I think I'm starting to understand the mindset of why some folks think Familiars are useless since it seems that there are some interpretations around there that view them as a 1 Action Tax during EVERY SECOND of EVERY DAY if the Familiar is going to ever do anything more than "sit there" and provide extra bonus Reagents/Cantrips/Spell Slots. Are any of you under the impression that Familiars cannot ever functionally act on their own without commands or something because that seems to be what you're talking about.
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First, you're failing to note that the Familiar Section notes that you need to use the Command Action during, and I stress, "in an encounter."
Nah, the major problem is that they didn't write any specific rules for minions outside of combat.
Which means the rules could range from "They can't do anything to they can do everything the player wants".
Hell PC characters can really only act in ways that are listed as exploration activities, or you have to work with your GM to create a new one.
And as other note, without your commands your minion does what it pleases, up to GM discretion. Which almost certainly isn't whatever your character wants, unless its directly ordering them. Which goes back to using your exploration activity to command your minion.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like the minion rules. But I just can't see a way to where you get the minion to perform an exploration activity without the PC spending their action to command them to do so.
Not without some explicit elaboration in the rules.
Well the minion trait states sapient minions act as they please if unattended. So basically all we have to decide is "doing this reasonable thing my master asked of me" is what they please.
The HUGE problem with that train of thought is we have no insight on what a familiar's thought processes are: There is no reason to think that what the PC thinks is reasonable is what it thinks is reasonable. IMO, a cat familiar would find it COMPLETELY reasonable to walk out of sight and take a nap... Or an owl goes off to find a mouse to eat. Or... They aren't presented as having any real personality or intelligence just that they can take orders every 6 seconds. Nothing infers that have any drive/initiative past that. They are presented as a drone/remote controlled device more than an independent creature.
As for the horse thing I will note that the assumed overland speed only has you using one action to move. A 30ft speed using 3 actions every six seconds should move 900ft but only moves 300ft. So a character using one action to ride their horse will move faster and not be fatigued.
No because that would mean that the horse would get fatigued by using more than one action a round for more than 10 minutes. That's why it's at one action because that is the rate creatures can use activities long term.