How good a fighter would you consider an ungeared full, 3 / 4, 1 / 2 BAB character to a normal person (no monk or monk types)?

[Senko]

Just something I was pondering when looking at the monk. They have all their unarmed abilities (increased damage, better AC, etc) and it got me wondering if you took a non-monkish character with a full, 3/4 or 1/2 BAB how good a fighter would they be compared to a normal person if you took away all their gear. No weapons, no armour, no magical items just their base skills. For the purposes of this discussion consider a non-monk specced to fight unarmed (e.g. improved unarmed feat) to be included in the class along with hybrid classes like Brawlers.

This is a fighter/wizard/cleric/slayer/barbarian/bard/x with all their feats and skills geared towards having their gear available not being an unarmed fighter. This is a surprise barbrawl that broke out. The melee types have no armour, weapons, etc. The spellcasters also have no gear and no spells available (They used them all in a fight earlier, same with daily use abilities). This is just pure phsyical combat against ohter bar patrons who didn't like the out of towners.

So party was at a bar, fight broke out, just regular everyday townspeople no hidden assasin, retired adventurer or lvl 20 commoner in the crowd. How well do you think the various classes/BAB levels would fair? Would the wizard be a better fighter than anyone in the bar? Is the fighter leaving them jaw dropped at his amazing skill? Are they all no better than anyone else as there's no monk/brawler/unarmed specced build in the group?

Feel free to compare any level party just make it clear which one your looking at.

Me I think it'd depend on the BAB/HP. 1-3 BAB probably isn't that much beyond normal combat ability to be noted 4-7 is going to impress the normal people, 8+ is the movie type of one person beating the living daylights out of the entire bar even if they aren't a specailized unarmed combatant. Anything above 20ish hp is going to impress people at how bad a beating/how skilled at avoiding hits the opponenent is. Above 50hp is going to leave them commenting about being an incredible warrior and above 80ish is probably going to see muttering about not being human. However I'm interested in your thoughts.

EDIT
I use commoner as in common people like this https://aonprd.com/NPCs.aspx?SubGroup=Commoner and http://legacy.aonprd.com/npcCodex/npc/expert.html which is why i'm thinking 1-3 BAB isn't that impressive combat abilitywise since with these rules I'm just comparing raw combat ability to raw combat ability.

Most commoners can hit that well or have up to 20ish hp. However even the most powerful (traitor) only has +5 BAB and 55 HP comparable to a lvl 10ish wizard (bit more hp) but well outstripped by a lvl 10 fighter and left behind by any lvl 20 character. The average commoner is going to have only +1 or 2 BAB and less than 20hp. However a constable will be +4 and 45hp which will be most commoners view of a "combatant". Experts do fare somewhat better but even there they cap out at +7 and 45 for an entertainer and probably not a normal one at lvl 10.

You might admitedly have a succesful merchant (lvl 7, BAB +5, 31HP) or expert blacksmith (lvl 6, BAB +4, 39 HP) which would be a nasty surprise to a wizard or lvl 5ish fighter. However lvl 10+ 3/4 and full or lvl 15 1/2 characters could still take them. Again however these are going to be an exception not the average patron.

[MrCharisma]

I think this depends a lot what level you think the average person is.

A level 10 commoner will beat the snot out of a level 1 barbarian, but if they're the same level the barbarian would be able to pick the commoner up and use them as a weapon (perhaps literally).

Inalways like the idea that it's something like this. Levels 1-3 = beginners, 4-6 = average guys, 7-9 = veterans, 10+ is the stuff of legend. So in the average bar most people would be level 4-6 commoners, while the captain of the guard is a level 7-9 warrior (maybe even fighter). Obviously this is fairly setting specific, so it's going to change a lot.

Assuming the party are fighting enemies around their own level, and assuming the enemies are mostly commoners with some experts and warriors thrown in.
I'm also going to assume they don't have spells but they have 1/4 of their daily class abilities left.
Barbarian - the star of the brawl, she beat the most people unconscious.
Bard - probably has some tricks up his sleeve to avoid the fight entirely (or maybe he started it). Either way, whether left alive or not the bard's team won.
Cleric - domain dependant. Probably not amazing but put in a decent show before going down.
Druid - has a bear. Let's be realistic here the druid won.
Fighter - the fighter would have been fine if he didn't try to fight the barbarian.
Monk - disqualified.
Paladin - the last girl left standing before the druid's bear took her out.
Ranger - has a wolf. Put on a good show, probably fared slightly better than the fighter since he has a buddy.
Rogue - can still sneak attack unarmed, but really wants a flanking buddy. Probably did the most damage before everyone turned on her
Sorcerer - with the right bloodline might have done something, without it went down in round 1.
Wizard - see sorcerer.

[Cornebre]

This question is SOOOOOO build dependent.
The character with animal companion or war familiar will be on top thanks to the fighting buddy presence.
A specialised fear based dazzling display Vigilante will be able to end the fight in the whole bar in 2-3 rounds (half his level d4 each round as non lethal at a 9m range (30 feets))
Classes that don't need weapons (unarmed fighters, or natural attackers) or can spontaneously produce one (Gloomblade fighters) are obviously fine.
Sneaky characters with Hellcats stealth will simply shout "STEALTH!" and backstab everyone unnoticed.

The 1/2 bab class are at the most disadvantaged, but... it's also SO build dependent (as some of them have utilities that don't consume ressources).

Also, most commoners are level 1-3...

[Meirril]

In published adventurers NPCs generally tend to be whatever CR the adventurers are at, so they represent a challenge. That is because after 6th level nobody cares how angry a 1st level commoner gets, the commoner is no direct threat to the adventurers.

When you look at settings material, you'll find that normal NPCs are mostly 1st level. If you look at downtime rules you can find 1st and 3rd level characters for hire. In setting material a 5th level character can be the captain of the guard in a town or small city. NPC who rule over important areas are in the 9-12 range. NPCs over 16th level generally have player classes and are legendary figures that most players will never encounter unless they are plot devices or opponents.

Keeping NPCs a threat to the party usually isn't a necessity. In the case you do need to, here are three ideas on how to accomplish this.

One method is to throw experts against them in retaliation for their actions. The PCs always get to push around the citizens who are no threat to the party, but the authorities call together teams of nobles + guards + adventurers in accordance to what actions the players have taken to defend the citizens and laws of the land.

A second method is to have teams of highly trained NPCs who use superior tactics and low-grade equipment to overwhelm PCs. Like a 20 man group of guards show up. 5 of them carry clubs and shields and mostly defend. 5 carry nets and try to ensnare players. 5 with spears try to aid another to either pump AC or help the nets hit. 5 more have a selection of wands and are low level casters. Mostly the casters wait for someone to try and use a spell and they use their held action to disrupt the caster's spell. Grungar the Barbarian might be the best ballroom brawler in town, but when 4 net guards and 5 spear guards give 1 net guard a +18 bonus to hit, Grungar is in trouble.

A third method is to treat large groups of NPCs as a swarm instead of as individuals. For every 3-5 people in the group the swarm takes up a 5' square. Weapons can do a maximum of 4 damage per attack. The swarm takes double damage from AoE. The swarm should have about 10 hp per square, and when 10 hp are done a square gets removed from the swarm. The swarm does pathetic damage but its really good at slowing movement and disrupting casting. The swarm should have a minimum of 40 people in it. When the swarm gets reduced to half hp it disperses as you have 20 or so people run for their lives.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Cornebre is right about it being based on the build. At low levels stats will be more important than class. At first level a ½ BAB class with a 16 STR will be able to hit more often and do more damage than a full BAB class with a 10 STR. Also at low levels the HP disparity between the classes is not as pronounced. Around 4th to 6th level the stats start to become less important and after that the advantage swings to the full BAB classes.

What it is going to come down to is how much damage can the character dish out and take. DEX based characters are going to have a good AC, and maybe a good chance to hit, but probably not do much damage. Unarmed attacks can be use with weapon finesse, but most DEX to damage feats cannot. A ranger with favored enemy human (assuming the commoners are human) will do extremely well especially at high levels with a maxed out favored enemy.

[Senko]

Just to be clear this is curiosity on how the various classes would do in a barbrawl and the like in a general, everyday pub. Its not intended to be used in a campaign so normal people can be a threat to the party. In fact its probably the exact opposite as this is normal inn not NPC scaled inn to produce a threat.

The reason I ruled out spells was because casting fireball into a bar brawl will get you wanted for deliberate murder. Animal companions would probably be similar because the bear is going to maul a local townsman whereas the worst the party has to look forward to is being beaten up and tossed out of town. Not saying you can't use the bear just not really the point of what I'm wondering. Which is how an unarmed adventurer with feats/skills geared towards their adventuring build i.e. having gear woul stack up against a normal person in a situation without it.

[Mudfoot]

Assume a 1st level human commoner with average stats (8 9 10 11 12 13 +2 to something) that's 2 stats with a -1 penalty, one at +1 and one at +2 (or 3 at +1). Assume further that the fight includes the more physical specimens (the dumb ugly brutes with Int/Wis/Cha penalties), we end up with an average of Str, Con and Dex at +1 each. If half the FCBs go into skills, half into hp, our commoner has about 5hp, AC 11 and attacks at +1 for 1d3+1.

A 1st level fighter with Str 17 and power attack will punch at +3 for 1d3+5, so needs an 8 to take down a commoner. Add a feat like Cleave and he's taking out just over one commoner per round. Conversely, the commoner needs a 10 or 11 to hit him (build-dependent) and needs to land 4 or 5 hits to put him down. So a 1st level fighter is worth a good 5 commoners, depending on how they gang up on him (one-on-one vs flanking swarms).

Then add in Intimidate and many of those commoners will be Shaken (perhaps +4 vs DC 10).

Add a few levels to the PC and it becomes a walkover.

Using bar stools and the like as weapons favours the commoners, as the extra damage helps them more than it helps the fighter.

Non-martial classes are much too variable to analyse usefully. It'll depend a lot on cantrips, skills and other gimmicks.

[Quixote]

I'd assume that your average barroom brawl would be less average farmhand-types and more low-grade laborers, caravan guards and the town drunk.

The typical lvl1 commoner is lvl1 because he's smart; he keeps his head down, minds his business and doesn't go skinning his knuckles on someone else's teeth two days before a harvest.

People who jump into a fight are usually people who are at least somewhat confident in their ability. Lvl1-3 commoners, experts and warriors, with at least two physical stats at 12-13 and/or one 14+.

With those assumptions, I'd say a wizard would have to be lvl8-10 before they could reliable engage in fisticuffs, sans magic. A rogue would probably be fine art lvl1, assuming they are
roguish about it. The cleric may want to wait until lvl3 or so. The fighter and the barbarian are probably okay at lvl1, but lvl2 is where they'll start to feel more safe.

[EldonGuyre]

In the game I run, very few NPC class characters make it past level two or three, and almost no commoners do. Most are 2nd level sometime in perhaps their 20s or 30s at the latest, commoners the last to level up, as they are the least adventurous.

In rougher parts of the world, NPC classes are less likely to be commoners, and more likely to be second or third. Fourth or fifth level NPC class characters almost always have tough jobs, and are quite rare, while only a handful over that level even exist in any area. A commoner over fourth is simply unheard of.

A typical city guard in a normal city is a War2.

Even an adventurous wizard of a few levels can generally hold his own in a barfight, unless he has really poor physical stats.

A fourth or fifth level martial class can sometimes clear the bar.

[Senko]

I actually have my own table of NPC levels it factors in CR (how dangerous it is where they live), XP by age, resources available to them, motivation and outliers.

Basically I use the commoner and aristocrat class for people who aren't especially motivated just going through life with the bare minimum of effort to get by (Dad was a pig farmer so I'm a pig farmer, Dad thought I should get married so I got married, wife thought I should bury dad as he died 3 day's ago so I buried dad). Adepts, Experts and Warriors are for the motivated go getters who know what they want to be and work towards it but don't have the resources for the best training. PC classes are for the rare person chosen by destiny or those who are go getters and have access to resources for professional elite training.

Any aristocrat who's motivated will have the resources to gain PC class levels, same with commoners in the larger cities where they can find someone willing to give it. However a constable in a small village who wants to the best guard they can is more likely to be a warrior as they've had to figure it out by themselves or from an occasional passing adventurer who was willing to give them some tips.

Basically a warrior is someone who becomes a soldier in an army, a (PC class of choice) is someone who becomes a member of the SAS or Navy Seals. Either would beat a normal untrained commoner or expert but as the levels go up the seal becomes a better combatant because more resources are dedicated to a more intense and extensive training. Apply same comparison to other classes e.g. expert vs bard.

In case its not obvious from the above I'm not a soldier and may have the wrong idea about special forces.

Anyway NPC's will vary in level from 1 to 6 (6 being if your living in places like the worldwound where surviving day to day is an acomplishemnt) with the longer they live the higher level they are up to a cut off point where the challenges of their daily lives aren't enough to make them improve without outside involvement e.g. serving in the royal army and actually fighting an invading army.

I can go into more detail if anyone's interested.

[Mark Hoover 330]

I like the numbers Mudfoot put together and frankly that's what this will come down to, AC and HP vs DPR of the foes or the PCs.

Without Improved Unarmed all of these attacks provoke AoO's as well. You have to bear that in mind if either side is bunched close together, like a party of heroes. If a single NPC throws a punch at the fighter while the rogue and cleric are within reach, you KNOW that NPC is taking 3 AoO's to the face before their fist even has a chance to connect.

You also have to look at build priorities. Say your 3/4 BAB is an Unchained rogue, level 1. The player knows that next level they'll be getting some Finesse so they didn't take the feat at level 1, but they prioritized Dex above all else in their build in anticipation. That could put their unarmored AC at as high as a 15 meaning a CR1 commoner with a +1 to hit has only a 35% chance to even land a hit.

Next you have to consider tactics. If it all comes down to the numbers, how do you maximize the numbers in your favor? Sacrifice 2 squares of movement to stand on a chair; you've got +1 to attack for higher ground. Got your buddies to back you? Flanking for +2 to attack. Got 2 squares of open space between you and your next foe? +2 to attack from Charging.

Another thing to think about is using Combat Maneuvers. Consider that CR1 NPC Mudfoot suggests in his post: bonuses include a +1 from Str and a +1 from Dex. This gives the CR1 NPC a CMB of 12. If your PC is going to eat an AoO from throwing a punch anyway, you might choose instead to go for a Grapple. If you're a 3/4 BAB but your second-highest stat is Str (such as for, say, a Cleric) then you've got about a 55% chance of success but if successful you've got a 75% chance of HOLDING that grapple long enough for another PC to incapacitate them.

For that matter, what about Animal Companions? 2 of the three gaming groups I have right now have had ACs in them from level 1 on. If a PC has a Wolf or a Cat, Large with them in the bar it's pretty much lights out for the NPCs. Heck, even a Small sized Familiar could really turn the tide in favor of the party.

I think the only time you see how less competent non-monk types are without their gear and spells is when you see them against monsters in the field. Take four PCs, strip them of spells and gear, and drop them into a bar fight and there's PLENTY they can do to win the fight. Take that same APL 1 party and drop them without weapons or spells into a crypt that contains a single ghoul...

[MrCharisma]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Without Improved Unarmed all of these attacks provoke AoO's as well.

True, but if nobody is armed then nobody can take AoOs, so it's a moot point.

[Ferka]

MrCharisma wrote:

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Without Improved Unarmed all of these attacks provoke AoO's as well.

True, but if nobody is armed then nobody can take AoOs, so it's a moot point.

Except those who have Improved Unarmed Strike are considered armed. Doesn’t that mean they would get those AoOs? Paired with combat reflexes, that would be a huge advantage.

[MrCharisma]

Yup, but assuming the average bar there wouldn't be many (and I thought we weren't giving the PCs IUS).

Also this might be a good reason to pick up a chair and use it as an improvised weapon. -4 to hit, but you can take AoOs.

[Senko]

MrCharisma wrote:

Yup, but assuming the average bar there wouldn't be many (and I thought we weren't giving the PCs IUS).

Also this might be a good reason to pick up a chair and use it as an improvised weapon. -4 to hit, but you can take AoOs.

Yep anything like that was excluded because if you build for unarmed combat of course you'll be good at unarmed combat. I'm interested in looking at the ones who are skilled adventurers but not built for unarmed combat. How well do they do if put into a general brawl like the ones you see on movies where everyones fighting everyone else but not seriously trying to kill anyone.

[Mark Hoover 330]

If everyone in the bar is equal, and no one has a feat advantage like being trained in Improved Unarmed when others aren't, then it comes purely down to HP, AC, BAB and Str/Dex.

A level 1 commoner likely has at best a +1 coming from their Str, a BAB of 0, and likely either a +1 from their Dex to AC OR a +1 HP from their Con.

A level 1 PC with a 20 Pt buy, built for some kind of martial combat, likely has a +4 coming out of their primary attack stat (Dex or Str), as well as a +1 to +2 coming out of both their other physical stats. Depending on BAB and Class, they have anywhere from 8 HP (martial-built spellcaster types) to 16 HP (Human Barb 1 with a +2 Con before Rage).

Neither side gets AoOs since both are untrained at unarmed combat. Both PC and NPC are Medium, so 1d3 plus Str damage on a solid hit. A Full BAB, Str 18 PC has a slam +5 (1d3 +4) attack while the NPC commoner has a slam +1 (1d3 +1) attack.

A 3/4 BAB with the same Str subtracts 1 from their attack bonus; if the 3/4 BAB has an 18 Dex and uses Weapon Finesse, get the +5 to attack but only deal 1d3 +1, maybe 1d3 +2 damage. A 1/2 BAB likely has a +1 attack for 1d3 +1 damage slam attack.

As PCs level against the same commoner, you're looking at:

For full BAB PCs: +1 to attack/level; +1 attack/damage from Str at every 8 levels; perhaps Power Attack adding extra damage at a rate of +2 at level 1, at level 4, and every four levels after at a subtraction of -1 to attack at every damage bonus

For 3/4 BAB: +1 to attack every 3 out of 4 levels gained; +1 attack/damage at every 8 levels; possible Power Attack

For 1/2 BAB: +1 to attack every other level; +1 attack/damage every 8 levels; possible Power Attack

Other Feats to add to the combat for either side might be Combat Expertise, Dodge, Furious Focus, Arcane Strike, Vital Strike, Catch Off Guard, Throw Anything, and any Style feats or Combat Maneuver feats that increase the accuracy of using Combat Maneuvers WITHOUT adding anything to unarmed attacks.

All things being equal, the commoner will have increases to Attack as the 1/2 BAB character, +1 to attack/Damage for every 8 levels (from Str increases), and then gains feats as normal (1 every odd level). Also remember that a Commoner gets 1d6 HP/level with no Favored Class Bonus for NPC classed creatures.

In other words, an 8th level Wizard for example, with a Bonded Object of a Wand and all their feats around Abjuration magic, with no optimization for melee combat and having taken a Medium race has a slam +4 (1d3), an AC of maybe 12 and 44 HP (8 at level 1, 5.5/level after); they ALSO have an Acid Splash Cantrip, so long as they can take a 5' step to cast and/or make their Concentration Check to cast without an AoO, that deals 1d3 Acid to Touch AC with a +6 to their attack roll.

The Commoner facing them has a slam +6 (1d3 +2), an 11 AC, a 10 Touch AC, and 36 HP meaning that, statistically speaking, even the Abjurationist wizard without any spells other than Cantrips, no daily abilities left, and no gear to help add damage to their spells, could potentially just outlast and thus defeat a commoner in a barfight at 8th level.

Does this help?

[Ferka]

Senko wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

Yup, but assuming the average bar there wouldn't be many (and I thought we weren't giving the PCs IUS).

Also this might be a good reason to pick up a chair and use it as an improvised weapon. -4 to hit, but you can take AoOs.

Yep anything like that was excluded because if you build for unarmed combat of course you'll be good at unarmed combat. I'm interested in looking at the ones who are skilled adventurers but not built for unarmed combat. How well do they do if put into a general brawl like the ones you see on movies where everyones fighting everyone else but not seriously trying to kill anyone.

Ah, I see it now. I misread this sentence: "For the purposes of this discussion consider a non-monk specced to fight unarmed (e.g. improved unarmed feat) to be included in the class along with hybrid classes like Brawlers."

I didn’t catch that "include in the class" meant "equate to monk". And then glossed over the next sentence too :) I’ll read more carefully next time.