Magus as a Wizards Thesis.

[Unicore]

This is a really good start and I agree completely with your goals and intentions. Combining actions that have separate rolls is going to get messy. Combining movement and spell casting is a lot smarter approach, especially since there is not a lot of consistency of how spells work in terms of targeting, especially at higher levels. But they almost all do use somatic actions so that is a good mechanic to build around.

I am just not sure why the magus wouldn't be able to do the stride on any somatic spell?

[vagrant-poet]

Unicore wrote:

This is a really good start and I agree completely with your goals and intentions. Combining actions that have separate rolls is going to get messy. Combining movement and spell casting is a lot smarter approach, especially since there is not a lot of consistency of how spells work in terms of targeting, especially at higher levels. But they almost all do use somatic actions so that is a good mechanic to build around.

I am just not sure why the magus wouldn't be able to do the stride on any somatic spell?

Specifically as a power limiter. Also I want to encourage rather than discourage attack spells.

If you can use any spell, you'll never use attack spells because your melee attack will be MAP free if you use fireball, etc. This way to get the "free action" you have to trigger MAP. If you're already in melee, you can use fireball, and a strike with no MAP, etc. But to get the effective haste move, you need to have some MAP first. Which makes the extra melee attack you get because you're now in range, less powerful.

Maybe that is an over-correction. I'd still rather straight buff attack spells more by swapping the circumstance bonus for ignoring MAP for one attack, just to really encourage the identity as spell attack in melee wizard.

[Temperans]

I think a better idea is to change how the Magus interacts with Attack spells including their MAP than to limit things to only Attack spells.

What do you think of treating Attack spells as Agile? Or something like, "If you hit with your weapon the spell is not affect by MAP.

***************
Agreed a good start is by setting some goals and intentions. I would also note possible versions, as that makes the difference between a stand alone class and something else. (I still want Magus to be its own class and not just a wizard thing).

* P.S. why does everyone forget Ranged Magus. Ranged Magi need love too.

[Pumpkinhead11]

Temperans wrote:

* P.S. why does everyone forget Ranged Magus. Ranged Magi need love too.

Originally i had the idea to split the main foci up into paths and see how it shook out. The third path was focused on being ranged; weather as an Arcane Archer or a Spell Sniper. A Ranged Magus would be really cool though indeed.

[Puna'chong]

If it's a class, my opinion is that you start with a foundation of it being a "gish-in-a-can" and go from there. The class built as a chassis for a variety of gish concepts that are self-contained, efficient systems that can be built up with class feats and are able to interact with archetypes, etc.

In my mind you'd have the class start with three specializations that let you have a core gish mechanic that plays well with a variety of things, but has an added ability that lends itself to a particular concept. Spell Combat (whatever the naming would be) could be a building block that lets the Magus stand out as a blend of magic and martial, maybe easing up requirements and giving them a minor weapon buff or something. Whatever it's called, it'd be something that another class might want to pick up as an MCD ability, but not necessarily as defining as a specialization's ability.

The core three specializations, perhaps, that a Magus class would start with would be:

Battlemage - Similar to what the P1e Magus ultimately was known for; lightly armored glass cannon warrior-mage. This would probably get Spellstrike as a specialization ability to combine a strike with a spell attack in some way.

Eldritch Knight - Heavy armored self-buffer, perhaps with an ability that lets them beef up their defenses and efficiently cast buffs on themselves during combat. Maybe a magical reaction or something.

Arcane Archer - Pretty standard, can do a lot with it, but a ranged version of a Battlemage, perhaps with less ability to blend a strike and a spell or whatever and more a way to enhance ammunition with a variety of spell-like effects.

Start with that, add in archetypes like Bloodrager or whatever, even give them some archetypes that let them use different spell traditions (Inquisitor, maybe?) and you'd have an interesting package.

[vagrant-poet]

You can currently, with little enough investment, cast a spell then fire a ranged weapon as your three actions. It requires investing in Dex, which you already want to do, and maybe getting bow proficiency, which isn't that hard. Then you have a great third action available at only -2 or -3 to compared to a normal martials first action at most levels.

I don't think you need a lot of support, and it would be very easy to buff it to being the best way to play a spellcaster, so I personally avoided it. I think an actual magus class should totally support a ranged weapon magus though. Something like an arcane archer. It just isn't that bad already, unlike a melee gish which is really clunky at the moment.

[Squiggit]

Puna'chong wrote:

The core three specializations, perhaps, that a Magus class would start with would be:

I'm personally not a huge fan of the marriage of mechanics you chose. A lightly armored self buffer or a tanky spellstriker both seem like really valid character concepts and I don't think pairing armor type with spellcasting mechanics ends up being very beneficial in the long run.

Especially when PF2 in general has made armor type a lot less relevant.

[Puna'chong]

Sure, you can remove armor from the equation.

[Exocist]

I tried to make one as a standalone class, the problem was coming up with enough class feats to make it distinct.

IMO

Base features:
Key stat int

Trained Perception

Expert Fortitude
Trained Reflex
Expert Will

Trained Arcana
Trained in a number of additional skills = 2+INT mod

Trained Simple/Martial Weapons
Trained unarmed

Trained Unarmored
Trained Light Armour

Trained Arcane Spell Attacks
Trained Arcane Spell DCS

Progression:
8hp/level
Full casting with limited slots (2 of each level, with only 1 of highest level on odd levels)

A spellstrike feature (I had a very long and wordy one to try and account for edge cases)

5 - Reflex -> Expert
7 - Crits with spellstrike apply critical specialisation
7 - Weapons -> Expert
9 - Casting -> Expert
11 - Perception -> Expert
11 - Fort->Master, Fort evasion
13 - Armor -> Expert
13 - Weapon spec
15 - Weapons -> Master
17 - Casting -> Master
17 - Will->Master, Will evasion
19 - 10th level slot

For a wizard, it would probably need a class archetype
- Increase HP/level by 2.
- Trained light armour level 1
- Trained all simple and martial level 1
- Lose 1 slot/level
- No Arcane School, don't get universalist benefit.
- At 7th become expert in weapons
- At 15th become master in weapons
- Dedication at level 2 that makes you expert in Arcana, gives training in Warfare lore and Spellstrike. Requires the archetype.
- Feat list off the dedication.

[citricking]

Exocist wrote:

I tried to make one as a standalone class, the problem was coming up with enough class feats to make it distinct.

IMO

Base features:
Key stat int

Trained Perception

Expert Fortitude
Trained Reflex
Expert Will

Trained Arcana
Trained in a number of additional skills = 2+INT mod

Trained Simple/Martial Weapons
Trained unarmed

Trained Unarmored
Trained Light Armour

Trained Arcane Spell Attacks
Trained Arcane Spell DCS

Progression:
8hp/level
Full casting with limited slots (2 of each level, with only 1 of highest level on odd levels)

A spellstrike feature (I had a very long and wordy one to try and account for edge cases)

5 - Reflex -> Expert
7 - Crits with spellstrike apply critical specialisation
7 - Weapons -> Expert
9 - Casting -> Expert
11 - Perception -> Expert
11 - Fort->Master, Fort evasion
13 - Armor -> Expert
13 - Weapon spec
15 - Weapons -> Master
17 - Casting -> Master
17 - Will->Master, Will evasion
19 - 10th level slot

For a wizard, it would probably need a class archetype
- Increase HP/level by 2.
- Trained light armour level 1
- Trained all simple and martial level 1
- Lose 1 slot/level
- No Arcane School, don't get universalist benefit.
- At 7th become expert in weapons
- At 15th become master in weapons
- Dedication at level 2 that makes you expert in Arcana, gives training in Warfare lore and Spellstrike. Requires the archetype.
- Feat list off the dedication.

I think key stat str, dex or int would be best

I would make spell strike and spell combat feats, not class features. Get expert at 5 like other martials, they'll lack a feature like rage or hunt target so they'll still be behind. I also wouldn't give them 10th level spells, that seems like it should be for pure casters.

[Exocist]

citricking wrote:

I think key stat str, dex or int would be best
I would make spell strike and spell combat feats, not class features. Get expert at 5 like other martials, they'll lack a feature like rage or hunt target so they'll still be behind. I also wouldn't give them 10th level spells, that seems like it should be for pure casters.

The only issue I have with making them feats instead of features is that the Magus really needs a unique thing as a class. Every other class has 3-5 other features (Plus a "core" feature that distinguishes them) sprinkled in amongst the proficiency upgrades and it's difficult to think of what to do for the magus.

Having spellstrike be that "core" feature would be a start, because I don't think using Arcane Pool will work. Mostly because all of the options from the 1e Magus Arcane Pool either can't be ported to 2e or would be better served as a focus spell.

[Temperans]

Just turn a lot of the Magus Arcana into feat, while also giving them some generic martial/caster feats(aka more than 1 class has them), and some new feats that fit the new system.

Heck some of their regular features can also be feats. Not to mention all the different abilities from Archetypes like being able to use a quaterstaff 1 handed, ways to interact with armor, changes to your physical condition.

I dont see the problem with Magus Arcana and Arcane Pool being focus spells, actually fits really well. Arcane pool granting a free rune slot would fit really well thematically, and depending on how its written feats to expand its usage. Ex: 1 action; You get a +1 potency rune, the value increases when your reach X and Y level; Feats can then unlock different rune types, like instead of getting X potency you may get your choice of X weaker runes (quick example actual text hopefully is more broad.

The biggest problem is not getting as many Arcane Pool points so duration would need to be carefully calculated, but unlike arcane points, focus points do recover.

[Phntm888]

I wonder if we're getting too hung up on Spellstrike as a thing you do where you cast a touch spell, then deliver the spell by making a Melee Strike, since that what it was in PF1. What if, instead, we made it a trait for certain feats?

Spellstrike - Actions with the spellstrike trait have a special benefit that can only be activated by expending spell slots. Spell slots expended in this way count against your daily number of spell slots, and you lose the spell prepared in the expended spell slot. Some actions with the Spellstrike feat grant heightened effects when higher level spell slots are expended.

Then, you would have feats like this:

Elemental Strike: 1 Action (Magus 1)
Traits: Air, Arcane, Earth, Evocation, Fire, Flourish, Magus, Spellstrike, Water
You use your magic to infuse your weapon with elemental energy. Expend a spell slot of 1st level or higher, and choose either acid, cold, electricity, or fire. Make a Strike with a melee weapon. Your Strike gains the following Success effect:
Success Deal an extra 1d6 of the chosen energy type.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------
Heightened (4th): Your Strike gains the following Success effect:
Success Deal an extra 2d6 of the chosen energy type.
Heightened (7th): Your Strike gains the following Success effect:
Success Deal an extra 3d6 of the chosen energy type.

With the Flourish trait, you could only use one a round, but it would give the Magus a unique way to use spell slots that isn't dependent on their spellcasting ability. If you give the Magus a class feature that is required to use Spellstrike feats, you can make that the Magus's unique thing and other classes that MCD into Magus can't impinge on the Magus's niche.

[Angel Hunter D]

Phntm888 wrote:

I wonder if we're getting too hung up on Spellstrike as a thing you do where you cast a touch spell, then deliver the spell by making a Melee Strike, since that what it was in PF1. What if, instead, we made it a trait for certain feats?

Spellstrike - Actions with the spellstrike trait have a special benefit that can only be activated by expending spell slots. Spell slots expended in this way count against your daily number of spell slots, and you lose the spell prepared in the expended spell slot. Some actions with the Spellstrike feat grant heightened effects when higher level spell slots are expended.

Then, you would have feats like this:

Elemental Strike: 1 Action (Magus 1)
Traits: Air, Arcane, Earth, Evocation, Fire, Flourish, Magus, Spellstrike, Water
You use your magic to infuse your weapon with elemental energy. Expend a spell slot of 1st level or higher, and choose either acid, cold, electricity, or fire. Make a Strike with a melee weapon. Your Strike gains the following Success effect:
Success Deal an extra 1d6 of the chosen energy type.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------
Heightened (4th): Your Strike gains the following Success effect:
Success Deal an extra 2d6 of the chosen energy type.
Heightened (7th): Your Strike gains the following Success effect:
Success Deal an extra 3d6 of the chosen energy type.

With the Flourish trait, you could only use one a round, but it would give the Magus a unique way to use spell slots that isn't dependent on their spellcasting ability. If you give the Magus a class feature that is required to use Spellstrike feats, you can make that the Magus's unique thing and other classes that MCD into Magus can't impinge on the Magus's niche.

The only issue I have with this is that spending a spell slot might as well be Focus Spells in this edition - that that gives us more options like Focus Cantrips, Multi-Point Spells, and in-combat Point Gain with a less complicated mechanic.

[Callin13]

Following off that Spellstrike Tag. Give them Spellstrike Cantrips like the Bard has special Cantrips. 2 action cantrips with the Spellstrike Tag that does a Melee Stike and does some equivilent to a spell. Like instead of a normal cantrip doing 1d6+mod have it do just 1d4. Heightened it adds mod and higher for its additional dice.

Spend feats for higher Cantrips like the Bard as well. Could also give a few more for free at certain levels like 9 when the Rogue gets their stike modifier.

Then you can also have Focus Spell Arcana for a greater spell effect if you want that nova or to enhance the blade with runes for a set time limit for longer lasting dps.

I do like the Stance idea as well. That can be used for offense or defense like the Monk. Give them different tags for element and give them interesting features as well but not up to an actual spell but maybe alters the way the use their Cantrips and Focus Spells.

[Temperans]

Sacrificing spells for spellstrike doesnt seems to fit very well.

Besides getting more damage via dice is done by using the Pool Strike Arcana. Thats the entire point of that Arcana, there is no point inventing new mechanics for something that already works as is.

[Callin13]

But thats first edition. Thats kinda the point of this thread is speculating how the mechanics of this edition is going to work.

[Temperans]

I mean that Pool Strike works a lot like a Focus Spell already.

Pool Strike wrote:

Benefit: The magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a standard action to charge his free hand with energy. He can make a melee touch attack [strike] with that hand as a free action as part of activating this ability [He can make an Unarmed or Weapon Strike as part of activating this ability]. If the touch attack hits, it releases the charge and deals 2d6 points of energy damage. He can use this ability with the spellstrike class feature. If he misses with this attack, he can hold the charge for up to 1 minute before it dissipates. At 6th level, and every three levels thereafter, the amount of damage dealt by this attack increases by 1d6.

Translate to PF2,

theoretical Pool Strike wrote:

2 action. 1 focus point. The magus charges energy into his hand. As part of casting he can make a melee strike. If the strike hits add 1d6 energy (energy type chosen at time of casting) to the damage dealt. If he misses or doesnt attack he can keep this energy for up to 5 rounds after which the spell disipates.

Heightened +2: Increase the damage by 1d6.

Notice how if we assume Magus never gets 10th level spells. It only deals 4d6 damage, but because it doesnt disipates on a miss it means the point isnt wasted.

1 way yo make magus more unique and balance out the removal of spells to keep master at martial + casting. Is for Magus to reintroduce the concept of Holding the Charge using weapons as a "battery" as their core ability. Yeah they cast less and generally weaker spells, but their spells delivered through a weapon arent spent when they miss. I say thats a fair trade, would you agree?

* P.S. for unarmed strike a feat could allow you to hold the charge while unarmed much like how Monks have to use a feat to flurry with weapons.

[Salamileg]

Temperans wrote:

Notice how if we assume Magus never gets 10th level spells. It only deals 4d6 damage, but because it doesnt disipates on a miss it means the point isnt wasted.

Focus spells scale off character level, not spell level.

[Temperans]

Salamileg wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Notice how if we assume Magus never gets 10th level spells. It only deals 4d6 damage, but because it doesnt disipates on a miss it means the point isnt wasted.

Focus spells scale off character level, not spell level.

Right I am just used to equating them in my head. Using heightened = character level it would be "heightened +5" to get 4d6 at level 16: Which is 1 level sooner than 9th level spells.