Is closing the location after defeating a closing henchman part of the same encounter?


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

OK I should know that by heart but for whatever reason I prefer to ask. We ran into that question on our last play and I don't know why we hesitated.

The issue is, for example, if I defeat a closing henchman, can another character play a "cannot be played during an encounter" card to move to my locatioon before I start to close?

If I played a spell giving me a boost for the duration of the encounter (with the henchman), is the boost still valid for the closing attempt? What if the closing attempt ask me to summon and defeat (which implies encountering, by the rules) another card?

If I play a card that allows me to examin the top 3 cards of my location, and the first is a closing henchman with a trigger saying "when examined, encounter", so I encounter and defeat. Do I (or can I if I wish to) keep examining the two next cards before trying to close (you know the famous "immediately" isn't there anymore)? Answer seems obvious but...


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Side question: if anything moves me between the time when I encounter the closing henchman and my closing attempt, do we agree that my closing attempt concerns my new location? Depending on the answers on my previous questions, the answer to that one may open a world of opportunities.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Title q: No, it isn't. It's part of the same exploration.

The lack of "immediately" nowadays could be ambiguous, but still - I'd say there can be *nothing* between defeating a Hench and attempting the close.

Encounter boost will not last for the closing attempt.

I do NOT know how it would act for a nested encounter though. RAW, it would seem the boost will start having effect, then stop (while the summon encounter takes place), then restart, This doesn't seem very intuitive to me so, in my game I would rule it also affects the nested encounter (which, while a separate encounter in itself, is ALSO a *part* of the original encounter, so there's that I guess)

Due to the assumed "immediately", you won't get to examine further cards if you close on the first examine.

Hench allows you to close the location IT came from (unless in the rulebook now it says "your location"?!?) - so if you move, your close attempt is wasted.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Thanks Longshot.
You see my issue. If I play a boost (like something that gives me say +1d6 to all checks "for this encounter") when I encounter a closing henchman and that henchman has a before you act that makes me encounter another stuff, I guess I have the +1d6 both for the before you act encounter and for the henchman check to defeat.
So now something feels really wrong for me if we say at the same time:
- Closing is somehow "part" of the encounter and not "after" so you cannot do something in between (like applying another power that happens "after the encounter").
- Closing is somehow "not part" of the encounter so you don't get the +1d6 to close.

Like you I was tempted to play it that there can be *nothing* between defeating a Hench and attempting the close, but then I realized that "assuming immediately as you said" may be "bad habits from Pre-Core". Rereading Core rulebook while making the effort to forget everything Pre-Core, I'm not so sure anymore.

BTW see how it's written (or not written ) that closing is part of the exploration:
Say I play an ally that says "discard to explore, during that exploration, add 1d6 to all ckecks", like you say, seems obvious that it can be used for the closing attempt... but it's not 100% clear in the rules. it comes from our interpretation that until you've done all things initiated by the exploration, you are still it it. Fine. But why don't we have the same interpretation for "exploring" and "encountering"?
I'm pretty sure I'm wrong and missing something but RAW I have an issue.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

The Core Rulebook does define each exploration as occurring in its own 'explore step'. This means that everything that happens in a single exploration step is in the same exploration, implicitly.

In other words, until you move to the next step of the turn (which is "close your location, if empty", or "end your turn", if you skip that), or until you do something to explore again, you're continuing your exploration. With the caveat that most powers that occur "outside of an encounter" (like casting Cure) are actually played in-between steps, and thus are not subject to once-per-step restrictions.

Additionally, a nested encounter is not the same encounter. An encounter details your checks and uses of power against a specific card - once a card summons a new card for you to encounter, you're no longer making checks and powers against the original card, implicitly.

For example, if a Fire Elemental somehow summoned a Frost Elemental before-acting, then whilst dealing with that you're not still making checks against the Fire Elemental (for example, the Frost Elemental wouldn't inherit the Fire Elemental's immunities and resistances). Since you're no longer making checks or taking actions against the Fire Elemental, you're not currently in an encounter with it.


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Closing is no longer “immediately” in Core so if you have multiple powers that happen when you defeat a closing henchman, you can choose the ordering of them. This was confirmed here.

For your trigger example, you still need to choose whether or not to close (and attempt said close of you chose “yes”) before moving on to examining the next card. This is because closing is a consequence of the encounter and you need to fully resolve all consequences of a trigger before you can continue the original examine power, with the sole exception of shuffling the location (since the rules tell you that waits until afterwards).

(Note: in the linked thread you’ll see that I argue that closing is part of the encounter against the closing henchman. I’m not entirely positive right now that this is the case; it’s largely how I’ve always played it and may be colored by pre-Core assumptions. Given the wording in the Core book, I can just as easily see that it is after the encounter is over. In other words, I’m intentionally abstaining from answering the main question of this thread because I’m also unsure of the correct answer right now)


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Thanks skizzerz. This was my point. I agree with all that is said but it is still unclear whether the encounter is over when you attempt to close.

Another example: say a location has a at this location power saying: "if you are the only character at this location, difficulty to checks are increased by 2. And closing is succeed at a Wisdom 10 check.

I am alone at this location and I just defeated a closing henchman. I'lm about to attempt closing.

Another character elsewhere as an ally saying "discard to move, you cannot play this card during an encounter".

See it coming?

Playing that card directly affects the check, so I see no reason why the character wouldn't be able to play it. EXCEPT if the encounter isn't over which isn't at all clear.

And of course that other character has another card saying "on a local wisdom check, freely discard to..." so if they are allowed to play the first card to move that can lead to a very different ballgame. Hence the main question of this thread is - I think - worth answering by the highest powers. IMHO.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Still no official answer?


Frencois wrote:
Still no official answer?

No worries. We've been waiting for a few character clarifications (Mavaro, etc.) for 4 years. So the queue may be backed up a bit. :)

On a related topic, is it worth revisiting whether the closing allowed by a closing henchman is "immediate" or not? If it's not immediate, you can get goofy timing loopholes like the one described in this thread.


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

That isn’t a loophole though, just opens up multiple avenues of doing things. I’ve yet to run into a case where the lack of immediately causes an actual issue.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Going to try and resolve this for good. Here's all the rules I can find about closing the location due to defeating a closing henchman:

Rulebook, p10 wrote:
If the encounter is with a bane, and you succeeded at all of the checks required to defeat it, it is defeated; if it is not a villain, banish it and the encounter is over.

This quote tells us that the encounter with a closing henchman is over when the henchman is declared as defeated. Therefore, anything happening after the henchman is defeated would by definition not be part of the encounter.

Rulebook, p15 wrote:
If the scenario lists a henchman with the word “closing,” you may attempt to close your location after defeating that henchman from that location.

This quote uses the wording "after defeating." To me, this reads as it happens after the bane is declared as defeated, as opposed to while the bane is being declared as defeated. The latter would be written as "when defeated" instead or the like rather than using the word "after."

Combined with the knowledge the encounter is over right when the bane is defeated, this leads me to believe that the close attempt happens outside of the encounter.

Rulebook, p20 wrote:
You may attempt to close your location after you defeat a closing henchman, or after the location runs out of cards (see Closing Your Location on page 15).

Just reinforces the "after" wording above, doesn't bring any new information into play.

Rulebook, p25 wrote:

Lee gets a result of 17 on his roll, and when this particular henchman is defeated, Lem gets a new weapon. Lee pulls a Giantbane Greataxe from the vault. Not the ideal card for Lem, but... “Gimme it!” Alice says, and Lee promises to give it to her next turn.

Because the scenario lists the Clockwork Guardian as a closing henchman, Lem now has an opportunity to close the Laboratory.

This example text has a "when defeated" power on the closing henchman. It clearly has Lem resolve the "when defeated" before the close attempt. It doesn't say that Lee has a choice of closing first before pulling the weapon, lending additional credence to closing being outside of the encounter with the closing henchman. The wording "now has the opportunity" further reinforces this, by indicating that the opportunity was not available prior to this point (which would've been the case if they were both "when defeated" reactions, as Lee could choose then the order of them).

Rulebook, p30 wrote:
Closing Henchman: A type of henchman which, when defeated, lets you attempt to close your location. See Closing Your Location on page 15.

This contradicts two of the quotes above by giving the timing as "when defeated" instead of "after defeating." Given that there are two sources using the timing of "after" and only the glossary entry using the timing of "when", I believe that the glossary entry is in error. This should probably get some errata to resolve this discrepancy in wording. (Note: the glossary entry for non-closing henchman also uses the "when defeated" wording but I don't feel it counts as much since we don't really care about the theoretical timing of things not happening.

tl;dr I'm now very confident that closing a location due to defeating a closing henchman is not part of the encounter with the closing henchman.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

... so you can indeed do a lot of thing before trying to close (as long as you do not start another step by exploring again or starting the end of turn for example), like
- Healing
- Moving charcaters around (providing you have the power needed)
- Giving cards (providing you have the power needed)
- Playing buff spells...
...
That really helps ensuring you can close


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Thanks for doing the heavy lifting Skizzerz!
Much appreciated


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Frencois wrote:

... so you can indeed do a lot of thing before trying to close (as long as you do not start another step by exploring again or starting the end of turn for example), like

- Healing
- Moving charcaters around (providing you have the power needed)
- Giving cards (providing you have the power needed)
- Playing buff spells...
...
That really helps ensuring you can close

The word “after” in the ACG does not mean “whenever you feel like getting around to it.” You do not have the opportunity to play whatever you want in between finishing the encounter and closing.

All it means is you resolve all “when defeated” effects first in the order of your choosing, and only then do you resolve all “after defeating” events in the order of your choosing, with the usual caveat that “immediately” powers must come before powers without that word.

Also note that you’re still inside of an exploration during the close attempt should you have defeated a closing henchman while exploring, for things that care about stuff that happens during an exploration.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Frencois wrote:

... so you can indeed do a lot of thing before trying to close (as long as you do not start another step by exploring again or starting the end of turn for example), like

- Healing
- Moving charcaters around (providing you have the power needed)
- Giving cards (providing you have the power needed)
- Playing buff spells...
...
That really helps ensuring you can close

Skizzerz explained that you couldn't just above, but note that - unless it's immediately relevant to a situation, check or step that you're in - you can generally only play cards and use powers in between steps of a turn anyway, which prevents all of your suggestions. To clarify; this isn't a Core rules change, this has always been the standard timing for playing cards for 'general' purposes, or at least as far back as Skull and Shackles.

For example, you can't process a Start-of-Turn effect (such as from a Scenario power), then play a Cure spell, then process another Start-of-Turn effect (such as from your location) - you have to wait until after the entire phase is over.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
skizzerz wrote:
That isn’t a loophole though, just opens up multiple avenues of doing things. I’ve yet to run into a case where the lack of immediately causes an actual issue.

I'll take this opportunity to congenially disagree. I think there are definite loopholes, in the sense that characters can do things in Core 2A that were likely not intended.

I do agree that the henchman/closing/non-closing possibilities listed in the abovementioned thread are legal RAW, but I can't imagine that many of the possibilities were meant to be allowed by the 2A scenario designer(s).

In particular, the RAW options in 2A will never be understood by new players. They were barely understood by me, and I've played a million games of PACG. (Slight exaggeration, but not really.)

If there's a "make closing immediate again" petition, I'd be happy to sign.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Adventure Card Game / Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion / Is closing the location after defeating a closing henchman part of the same encounter? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion