I find 2e's druid to be an oddball. Shield block at base shocked me especially with the low skills and no innate crafting skill to repair. Medium armor but limited to hide. D8hp so no bonus spell slots.
Then you have wild order. I find the transformation spells interesting.
If I made a gnome druid with voluntary flaws
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Wis 12
Cha 10
And I increase strength, con, wisdom and your choice of Cha or int.
Getting handwraps of mighty fists with appropriate runes as I level.
My Max spell level forms will have the same to hit as my base form, Wich is that of a caster.
The damage won't always be better due to striking runes. But I guess jury is out on whether striking runes can enhance the die number of certain low die number forms.
So why not just play 18 wisdom and say only increase strength for feats? Why not rely on these forms for your combat?
Well because your a wild order druid!
It seems the entire value of this druid is in its focus powers.
Morph scales with your handwraps resulting in the ability to do a massive 4d6+3d6 runes+4d6 bleeding by high level. 11d6+6 seems pretty good! You get some interesting benefits based on other forms, and with DM consent can combine them with some wild shapes (flying snake with claws says hi). Seems one of it's big benefits is you don't become huge. But your ac and to hit is that of a caster. -2 or -3 behind a martial.
Wild Shape, the same thing as your spell slot forms but if you use your own to hit you get a +2, Wich if your build is as the one I shown, basically result's in you improving your to hit to almost that of a equal level 18 starting strength barbarian. Wich seems quite good.
So thus the real value seems to be in using your focus point to wild shape for martial to hit rating, or when size is an issue, morph.
Issue is you only have 1 focus point. In comes monk dedication. Giving us powerful fist and easy access to 3 focus points by level 6. Monk's flurry at 10 if you'd like.
By 5 your gnome ancestry let's you regenerate 1 focus point as an action per day,. Level 6 you can go wild shape 4 times before you need to refocus/rest. Then you still have your Max rank spell slots for backup forms. 7 forms before needing a rest.
Form control is interesting though hard to fit, I'm hesitant due to the reduction in ac and general combat viability just for a longer duration form that's basically slightly worse than me just using a spell slot (but again it lasts longer)
Other issue is my feats are pretty taken up. Levels to gain more forms seems to be
8 (flying)
14 (plant)
16 (monstrosity)
Why those? Primarily for morph effects. Flying and reach with a damaging claw attack.
Once your out of focus points and Max level slots your relegated to mostly buffing and utilities with either ranged cantrips or foolishly trying to powerful fist flurry of blows something.
Am I missing anything? I'm basically learning druid today. Ideas, opinions? Am I better off just playing a animal instinct barbarian?
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That looks pretty right to me.
One thing to keep in mind, a lot of the value in the forms spells is the sheer versatility that they give you. Need to swim? Animal Form. Opponent is on a platform above you? Animal Form. Opponent is far away? Animal Form. Need to scout? Pest Form.
A pure martial will beat you on raw damage and/or on defences a lot of the time. And that is just fine. You bring a LOT to the table to counter that lower damage output. Spells are still kinda useful :-). You've probably got decent wisdom and so can be good at some quite useful skills.
I haven't played one at high levels since the playtest but my plan for my druid (PFS) is to be good with weapons AND spells AND wild shaping. So, depending on the situation, he can swing his longsword while casting spells (or moving and raising his shield) but when he needs (or wants to because its cool :-)) he can rip opponents apart as an ape.
That looks pretty right to me.
One thing to keep in mind, a lot of the value in the forms spells is the sheer versatility that they give you. Need to swim? Animal Form. Opponent is on a platform above you? Animal Form. Opponent is far away? Animal Form. Need to scout? Pest Form.
A pure martial will beat you on raw damage and/or on defences a lot of the time. And that is just fine. You bring a LOT to the table to counter that lower damage output. Spells are still kinda useful :-). You've probably got decent wisdom and so can be good at some quite useful skills.
I haven't played one at high levels since the playtest but my plan for my druid (PFS) is to be good with weapons AND spells AND wild shaping. So, depending on the situation, he can swing his longsword while casting spells (or moving and raising his shield) but when he needs (or wants to because its cool :-)) he can rip opponents apart as an ape.
Thanks for the reply.
What's your thought on form control? I feel while it's neat to extend your focus points that the lowering of spell level of the form hurts it's combat ability too much to make you viable since your ac will be worse than your base form Wich will already scale poorly and your to hit won't be any better than base form. Literal only saving Grace is if you're DM let's you apply your striking runes to the form and the ability to sink a second focus point to gain claws and wings from morph into a form that has neither (snake comes to mind). But even then, while awesome sounding. The numbers just don't seem to hold up.
Issue is you only have 1 focus point.
This, specifically, is a common complaint about Animal and Wild order druids. The advice often given is to start as a Leaf or Storm druid, as both of those orders start with 2 focus points. Then, at 2nd level you can take Order Explorer to pick up Wild Shape. If you don't care about Wild Morph, you don't even need to bother with Order Magic. All you miss out on is having Wild Morph/Pest Form at 1st level, and Wild Morph at 2nd (since you can't use Animal Form until 3rd level). As a druid with a high Str, you can probably get by at 1st/2nd levels with a club in one hand and a wooden shield in the other, with Sheleigh for significant combats. (1st/2nd level is really the only time when Shield Block is worth anything to a druid anyway, since Sturdy Shields are steel).
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I've only theory crafted form control, not actually seen it in action.
Note that I don't believe that it is possible to apply striking runes to wildshaped druids. The clear intent is that the abilities listed are what you get. How that interacts with things like monks increased unarmed damage, sneak attack, even monks flurry are less than crystal clear.
But I basically agree with you. Form control has uses outside of combat but it is somewhere between nerfing you into uselessness and sheer suicide IN combat against anything approximating appropriate challenges for your level.
I think you need arms for some of the wild morph options so definitely no snake with claws and arguably no deer with claws (ape with claws would probably be ok but not at all clear which claw damage would "win")
Issue is you only have 1 focus point.This, specifically, is a common complaint about Animal and Wild order druids. The advice often given is to start as a Leaf or Storm druid, as both of those orders start with 2 focus points. Then, at 2nd level you can take Order Explorer to pick up Wild Shape. If you don't care about Wild Morph, you don't even need to bother with Order Magic. All you miss out on is having Wild Morph/Pest Form at 1st level, and Wild Morph at 2nd (since you can't use Animal Form until 3rd level). As a druid with a high Str, you can probably get by at 1st/2nd levels with a club in one hand and a wooden shield in the other, with Sheleigh for significant combats. (1st/2nd level is really the only time when Shield Block is worth anything to a druid anyway, since Sturdy Shields are steel).
My current theorized build is taking monk dedication at 2 and 4/6 taking ki powers so I have 3 by level 6. Plus I can use my unarmed strikes when not shifted if need be and take advantage of the handwraps I would invest in.
Not perfect, probably be a last d in ditch thing to do. But it helps streamline and without form control there isn't really any feats I want at those levels regardless.
I've only theory crafted form control, not actually seen it in action.
Note that I don't believe that it is possible to apply striking runes to wildshaped druids. The clear intent is that the abilities listed are what you get. How that interacts with things like monks increased unarmed damage, sneak attack, even monks flurry are less than crystal clear.
But I basically agree with you. Form control has uses outside of combat but it is somewhere between nerfing you into uselessness and sheer suicide IN combat against anything approximating appropriate challenges for your level.
I think you need arms for some of the wild morph options so definitely no snake with claws and arguably no deer with claws (ape with claws would probably be ok but not at all clear which claw damage would "win")
My understanding is the rules on combining morph with shape is that the shape has to not have the feature in order to gain the morphs version.
No granting morph wings to a flying Shape as it already has them. Etc.
So a snake doesn't have a claw attack or wings was my thought.
Honestly, form control is only there for utility. In order for wild shape to be good at combat, you're going to want it to be an on level spell, otherwise AC and damage suffer pretty bad. It's nice when you want to turn into an innocuous bird or cat or what have you to do scouting, or use your extra move speeds and senses in exploration mode, but you'll never want to use it to fight.
Unless you really want wild morph, I'm going to agree with folks here in saying it's better to start off with leaf or storm order, and then use order explorer. Leaf is probably better if you plan on leaving wisdom low, and goodberry overall is a pretty solid healing spell. Storm order is a save or suck focus spells, so you'll want to consider having a higher wis. That said, it's totally possible to run a solid melee wild shape user while still having 18 starting wisdom. The druid spell list in general is pretty blasty, so I'm not even sure I'd recommend having a low wisdom. The primal list has a lot less buffing spells than the divine list, so the druid is hurt a lot more by dumping their casting stat than a battlw cleric
This is certainly an interesting discussion. My first thought was "you can't morph a Polymorph shape", but that's not actually true. The language is "Your morph effects might also end if you are polymorphed and the polymorph effect invalidates or overrides your morph effect. The GM determines which morph effects can be used together and which can’t."
I think you need to Morph first and then Polymorph after, since you typically can't cast spells while Polymorphed.
This also helps me understand why you are so focused on your Focus pool; since most Wild Shape users just need 1 Focus for the fight. In my experience, it's very rare to have two fights back to back without an opportunity to Refocus in between. But if you need to burn 2 focus an encounter to "do your thing", then yeah that's pretty painful until you get Primal Focus at 12th level.
Since you're already a Gnome, don't forget you can use Animal Accomplice to pick up a familiar, and then have one of the master abilities be the one that gives you another daily focus point. You probably also want Druid's Vestments, but by that point you're almost at 12th level anyway.
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Some time ago I made a Wild Shape table just for funsies to compare the forms AC and to Hit, it keeps up with the Ranger pretty well in my opinion. Remember that this table might have some mistakes and don't show stuff like the Dragons breath attack that is great (and use your spell DC).
Anyway, the Form Control to use in combat instead of utility I would say that you would need to be lvl 15 to use a Strong form at full power (plant), Dragon and Monstrosity needs to be lvl 19 for that.
Thanks for the replies.
I like the concept of morph and after several people here discussed the value of starting with a different order, I wondered, that's kinda like taking wild order as a dedication? Lightbulb! Though it strays away from druid a bit.
Go monk.
1-ki strike
2- druid dedication
4- wild shape
6- order spell
8- wholeness of body
10-?
12- meditative focus
14-?
16- Ariel form
18- meditative wellspring
20- plant form (though probably just golden body)
By level 6 I can spend a focus point in morph and gain 2d6 bleed damage as a monk not a druid.
At 6 I can wild shape and get a +2 to hit on top of martial to hit getting temporarily up to fighter levels of hit bonus?
The user is by level 16 or so your probably just better off using morph but by that point you've gained fly and a massive persistent bleed effect.
Seems pretty cool
Mind blanked. The bleed doesn't come online until level 11 but that's ok because animal form will carry you all the way there