Tank Dwarf with shields

[Wonderstell]

BluePikachu wrote:

In that regards. I'd like my character do be similar to Braum in League of Legends. Tanky, agile to jump and protect allies, decent cc to help get kills. Where his dmg is minor

Friendly Switch is a great feat to get your allies out of danger and take their place. Without aggro mechanics you need to prevent enemies from simply attacking the archer dude to the side, so positioning is key.

BluePikachu wrote:

I'm starting with 570 GP if that helps to pick starting gear.

Do you play with character traits? 570 GP is a small budget, and there are traits that would boost it.

[Cavall]

I'm really confused. Did he apologize then say no apology needed?

[Quixote]

Cavall wrote:

I'm really confused.

I said no apology was needed. BluePikachu quoted me but the formatting must have gotten mixed up or something.

Meirril wrote:

...I didn't present the first point before because it isn't a demerit in the comparison. Both using a Tower Shield and using TWF share the same penalty to hit. As such, it wasn't worth bring up until Quixote accused the Tower Shield of having a penalty to hit without pointing out that his own alternative also shares the exact same penalty.

I would argue that an additional attack and +2 to AC are different enough that it's a point to be made.

If someone offered to sell me a bar of chocolate for $2 and someone else told me they'd sell me a second hand book for $2, the chocolate and the book don't automatically have the same worth to be just because they'd cost me the same thing.

Moreover, my point was more about making an argument against a stance that has already considered the evidence you're bringing to the table. Specifically:

initial statement- "eventually, you could exchange the tower shield for a heavy steel shield, and maybe pick up Improved Shield Bash and Two Weapon Fighting."

supposed argument- "I wouldn't do that. You can't bash with a tower shield and you lose your AC bonus when you bash unless you have a feat or something."

--it just reads like my first comment wasn't actually read, and now there's this redundancy and it feels tedious.

But as to the actual point of the thread, sure. Two Weapon Fighting may well not be the way to go. I'm certainly not advocating for it, merely offering it as a possible option.

[BluePikachu]

My GM is new to GMing. Doesnt have a ton of exp playing either. So I dont think we did character traits.

[BluePikachu]

Are there traits after friendly switch to make it so I can take hits as they're attacking, or boost allies ac?

[Meirril]

Quixote wrote:

Cavall wrote:

I'm really confused.

I said no apology was needed. BluePikachu quoted me but the formatting must have gotten mixed up or something.

Meirril wrote:

...I didn't present the first point before because it isn't a demerit in the comparison. Both using a Tower Shield and using TWF share the same penalty to hit. As such, it wasn't worth bring up until Quixote accused the Tower Shield of having a penalty to hit without pointing out that his own alternative also shares the exact same penalty.

I would argue that an additional attack and +2 to AC are different enough that it's a point to be made.

If someone offered to sell me a bar of chocolate for $2 and someone else told me they'd sell me a second hand book for $2, the chocolate and the book don't automatically have the same worth to be just because they'd cost me the same thing.

Moreover, my point was more about making an argument against a stance that has already considered the evidence you're bringing to the table. Specifically:

initial statement- "eventually, you could exchange the tower shield for a heavy steel shield, and maybe pick up Improved Shield Bash and Two Weapon Fighting."

supposed argument- "I wouldn't do that. You can't bash with a tower shield and you lose your AC bonus when you bash unless you have a feat or something."

--it just reads like my first comment wasn't actually read, and now there's this redundancy and it feels tedious.

But as to the actual point of the thread, sure. Two Weapon Fighting may well not be the way to go. I'm certainly not advocating for it, merely offering it as a possible option.

I think you need to work on your reading comprehension, because you over simplified my argument and missed the main point.

The main point is you're spending 2 feats to get less AC for an extra attack. Lets say it a slightly different way:

Instead of lowering your AC by 2 to get an extra attack, you could use the 2 feats to bolster your attacks, or AC. If you just took weapon focus and weapon specialization instead you'd have a comparison of

1) You can have an extra attack
or
2) You can get +1 to hit, +2 to damage, and +2 to AC.

Except that option 2 is just the result of spending 2 feats on anything you might want to do.

And the bigger picture here is that the higher AC is more in line with the OPs request, and getting that extra shield bash is expensive in character resources. The way Quixote presents his argument avoids presenting the full opportunity cost by simplifying my point, like 2 feats are trivial and not worth mentioning.

[avr]

BluePikachu wrote:

Are there traits after friendly switch to make it so I can take hits as they're attacking, or boost allies ac?

The feat chain combat reflexes - bodyguard - in harm's way is about that. Also the second feat in the mobile bulwark line, to some extent.

Remember that you have a finite number of feats and you can't get every feat line though. Mobile bulwark, PA-cleave-goblin cleaver-cleaving finish?, and the combat reflexes line above are enough that you'll have to delay a lot of the feats. Add in more and it'll just get more congested.

[Cavall]

It would be wise if you're going 2 shields to bash away that Training enchantments may help with feats.

You have a lot of feats but AVR is right that it's a lot of investment. Youll always feel behind. Getting 2 more feats may alleviate a lot of that. Just make sure they are the end of feat trees not the start of them or this has little use for you.

Getting shield bash tree to get free bullrushes may be another way to go around crowd control too. They approach, you knock them back reducing their chance to get by you. I'd suggest heavy strength and a fair bit of dex too to keep multiple people bottle necked with combat reflexes.

If keeping bad guys from hitting friends is a major goal, it's a great way to go around it. Keep them in one area and knock them back to that area.

I'd also suggest enlarge person on to give reach if you go this route. You'll be 10 feet across and with 5 feet extra reach on each side. A massive roadblock.

[Melkiador]

Did you check out the avenger vigilante? It has a lot of what you want.
*Shield of Fury gives you shield bash and 6th level two weapon fighting with eased prerequisites.
*Signature Weapon gives you weapon focus and specialization
*Heavy Training to pick up heavy armor
*Mockery gives you a beefed up antagonize feat
*Combat skill gives you a bonus combat feat, where you can count half your levels as fighter levels.

You can just ignore the secret identity stuff if you want.

[BluePikachu]

Melkiador wrote:

Did you check out the avenger vigilante? It has a lot of what you want.

*Shield of Fury gives you shield bash and 6th level two weapon fighting with eased prerequisites.
*Signature Weapon gives you weapon focus and specialization
*Heavy Training to pick up heavy armor
*Mockery gives you a beefed up antagonize feat
*Combat skill gives you a bonus combat feat, where you can count half your levels as fighter levels.

You can just ignore the secret identity stuff if you want.

Thats actually a really cool role, but I don't know if it fits what I wanted to do. But this seems really cool. I might rework my back story some to fit, because I could easily make that work. This role seems a lot more fun all around as with my low int and cha, I was useless out of combat.

It will depend on who dies in the next session vs the boss who killed my character, as I was the closest to a tank, and we really need one. I had the most health and highest ac, with 18 ac and 36 health.

[Wonderstell]

BluePikachu wrote:

Are there traits feats after friendly switch to make it so I can take hits as they're attacking, or boost allies ac?

'

Combat Reflexes->Bodyguard->In Harm's Way, as mentioned by avr, is the most straightforward option. Unfortunately it isn't a particularly good option for your character.

Bodyguard won't work against ranged attacks and requires you to be adjacent to your ally and to threaten the enemy. Since you're not using a reach weapon this will probably be a rare event. And even if you succeed it's only a +2 bonus to AC without the effects that increase it.
In Harm's Way would ignore your high AC so it's a waste to use it.

Mobile Bulwark Style could be a bit complex to use effectively since enemies can ignore you or just side step your Total Cover if you're not positioned carefully. It's great against ranged opponents, but hard to use effectively in melee unless you have some gimmick. I'd consider a mounted build if you want to use Mobile Bulwark Style, so that your mount moves you around the battlefield.
An easier build would be to use Crane Style while wielding a shield and the Gnome Flickmace. Creating a threatened area that enemies don't want to pass through to reach your allies is also a type of tanking.

[Quixote]

Meirril wrote:

I think you need to work on your reading comprehension...

I would ask that you not insult my intelligence. Comments like this do not add anything of merit to the conversation and are against the forum rules.

I will say again: I am not advocating for a TWF shield build. I merely mentioned it as a possible option.
Any resistance or defense on my part was in response to the way in which the initial reply to my comment was written, not necessarily it's content.
The mechanics behind your argument are sound. You have brought up several good points. I am not and have never been at odds with your stance on the subject.
Please be civil.

In regards to the OP and the current focus of the thread: what about slightly less focus on AC and more on control? If your AC is crazy high and your damage is kind of lackluster, foes will probably ignore you in favor of higher priority targets. A reach weapon, combat maneuvers and similar methods will allow you to take enemies down while also keeping your allies safe.

[Ryan Freire]

Full Jerk Dwarf Fighter
Tower shield
Adamantite full plate
Dorf weapon of some variety. I stand by waraxe, give it impact asap

Relevant abilities...levels you take them can be fiddled with.

Advanced Armor Training: armor specialization (extra 1/4 levels of ac)

Advanced Armor Training: Armored Juggernaut (once you get adamant plate this gives you dr/- roughly equal to an invulnerable rager barbarian)

Advanced Weapon Training: Warrior spirit (can be used to give you bane whatever)

Advanced weapon training: Armed bravery.

Feats: Power attack, steel soul. The rest you can flavor however you want. If you want you can ditch the tower shield and add AWT: Defensive weapon training, to gain a little shield bonus and use a two handed weapon.

Thats basically your survivability stuff. You can use versatile trainings to get skills you might like, most of your feats are still open.

[BluePikachu]

If I know I'm going to be facing Goblins, is it better to change a bit to go into PA, and Cleave, Goblin Cleaver (and get the double waraxe for the +1 to cleave) so I can be far more useful in fights? Then just do armor specialization for the extra AC, get bane from weapon specialization.

Then at what point would it be beneficial to switch to a warshield or heavy shield?

Same thing with a full plate and drop the chain mail and armored kilt.

TM, I'm gonna look through everything and try to map out what i like best and put it in which level i think is good then post it to see how it looks to you guys. Cause I see each different reasoning and think it sounds good and try changing everything

[avr]

The chain mail/armored kilt is just the best armor within your current budget. Once you have the money get full plate, no question. This is independent of anything else you're doing.

Which feats you get depends on what you're doing.
e.g.1

Spoiler:

1: shield focus (tower shield)
Fighter 1: mobile bulwark style
Fighter 2: power attack
3: advanced armor training (armored sacrifice)
Fighter 4: mobile fortress
5: cleave
Fighter 6: goblin cleaver
7: mobile stronghold
Fighter 7 AAT: armor specialization
Fighter 8: cleaving finish
Fighter 9 AWT: warrior spirit
9: Kraggodan's stance
Fighter 10: great cleave
11: steel soul

That's going down the cleave and mobile bulwark feat lines mainly, with a tower shield and an axe.
e.g.2

Spoiler:

1: two-weapon fighting
Fighter 1: improved shield bash
Fighter 2: shield focus (dwarven warshield)
3: saving shield
Fighter 4: weapon focus (dwarven warshield)
5: weapon specialization (dwarven warshield)
Fighter 6: Improved TWF
7: missile shield
Fighter 7 AAT: armored sacrifice
Fighter 8: shield slam
Fighter 9 AWT: warrior spirit
9: advanced armor training (armor specialization)
Fighter 10: double slice
11: shield master

That's doing TWF with some specialised shield feats. There's not a lot of crossover with the first, just the advanced armor/weapon training options I chose there.

Those aren't the only options by a long shot, but I'm just saying there are a lot of feat chains out there and saying there is a best is a mistake in itself.

If you go down the mobile bulwark feat line then you stick with the tower shield forever. If you want you can start with the dwarven warshields. Switching between the two might be possible somehow but it'd be tricky as hell.

[Ryze Kuja]

Tbh, I'd go for a Greater Trip + Combat Reflexes + Imp Shield Bash build, and then get a Maelstrom Shield around level 6-8ish when you can save up 14,170gp. Enchant that thing with Fortuitous asap.

The Maelstrom Shield is already enchanted with Bashing, which causes dmg as if two size categories larger, so you can Shield Bash, get a free trip, and if you're successful, you'll get two Attacks of Opportunity when he falls prone, and one more AoO when he gets back up. Its an easy way to pile on the hurty hurt while making yourself and your group very survivable because Trip = Crowd Control and it eats up enemy Action Economy. Action Economy is everything in this game.

[BluePikachu]

avr wrote:

The chain mail/armored kilt is just the best armor within your current budget. Once you have the money get full plate, no question. This is independent of anything else you're doing.

Which feats you get depends on what you're doing.
e.g.1** spoiler omitted **
That's going down the cleave and mobile bulwark feat lines mainly, with a tower shield and an axe.
e.g.2** spoiler omitted **
That's doing TWF with some specialized shield feats. There's not a lot of crossover with the first, just the advanced armor/weapon training options I chose there.

Those aren't the only options by a long shot, but I'm just saying there are a lot of feat chains out there and saying there is a best is a mistake in itself.

If you go down the mobile bulwark feat line then you stick with the tower shield forever. If you want you can start with the dwarven warshields. Switching between the two might be possible somehow but it'd be tricky as hell.

So would, iron will, dodge, and toughness, not be worth taking (they were brought up earlier and acknowledged to be good ideas)? I can take unstoppable to replace hardy to get toughness. Dodge is only 1 ac. My character that died did have a ring of reflection, so if my party gives that to me that could replace dodge. Is Iron Will better to take later?

[avr]

The steel soul feat and the armed bravery AWT are both better value than iron will if you find yourself with a spare feat later on.

I'd felt that armored sacrifice was better value than toughness. If you can get toughness without spending a feat, fine.

Dodge is just +1 AC as you say. I'm not a fan of spending a feat for 1 AC unless you plan to use it as a prereq, but if you stack together a lot of +1 AC feats you can maybe get your AC high enough that enemies will usually miss. That'd be another build with little in common wth my 2 examples above.

[Ryan Freire]

avr wrote:

The steel soul feat and the armed bravery AWT are both better value than iron will if you find yourself with a spare feat later on.

I'd felt that armored sacrifice was better value than toughness. If you can get toughness without spending a feat, fine.

Dodge is just +1 AC as you say. I'm not a fan of spending a feat for 1 AC unless you plan to use it as a prereq, but if you stack together a lot of +1 AC feats you can maybe get your AC high enough that enemies will usually miss. That'd be another build with little in common wth my 2 examples above.

dodge is generally worse than advanced armor training: armor specialization, which scales up to a +4 or 5 i think?

Advanced armor training Armored Juggernaut saves more hp than 1 per level.

[Philippe Lam]

BluePikachu wrote:

So would, iron will, dodge, and toughness, not be worth taking (they were brought up earlier and acknowledged to be good ideas)? I can take unstoppable to replace hardy to get toughness. Dodge is only 1 ac. My character that died did have a ring of reflection, so if my party gives that to me that could replace dodge. Is Iron Will better to take later?

I'd still take Toughness because I'd never lack of HP, though I agree the feat isn't strictly a no-brainer. If your GM allows crafting, I'd say go for Master Armorer, you'll be able to craft armours and shields, to spare the spellcasters' load about crafting.

Iron Will is kinda like Dodge or Shield Focus, things to pick if the character still has feats to spend, as they bring weaker benefits than things like Armor Specialization or Armed Bravery. But if you can't wait, then go for it.

If I had to think slightly more out of the box, I would go for Steel Headbutt. If you go the shield route, that combines better because either the headbutt and the shields are part of the close group (someone correct me if I'm wrong), good on weapon training. That said it's a secondary weapon so hit/damage won't be that neat. Knockout Training if you want to do nonlethal with no penalties (but with extra damage)