# Charge Overrun only works for tiny or smaller?

### Rules Questions

So the charge rules state, "You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent."

This means if you threaten the squares around you as a size small or larger creature does, your charge is stopped as soon as you threaten the target, resulting in not being able to perform overrun Manuever?

Edit: How did this come up? It's all about move to closest square from which you can attack. Let's look at a wizard polymorphed into a tikbalang weilding a spear.

Is the closest space

A) 15ft. Away where it can attack with it's spear?

B) 10ft. Away for natural attacks

C) In the Target's square for trample

D) Some place past the Target's square assuming successful overrun / trample

Follow-up: how does the charge restriction interact with pounce? If A, does he just full attack with spear? If D, can he take all attcks at any point during movement?

Specific overrules generally. Generally you cannot move after your attack on a charge, but since you can Bull Rush and Overrun as part of a charge, we use those maneuver rules for movement (since to be unable to move on these would be ridiculous).

So when you charge and bull rush: “For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so...”

You continue your charge movement in a straight line until either you stop pushing the enemy or you run out of movement (the enemy may have been pushed farther than you can move).

And then if you charge to overrun: “ If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver check as normal. If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target’s space. If your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target’s space and the target is knocked prone.“

You continue your charge movement in a straight line until you wish to stop, run out of movement, or meet another obstacle (you cannot attack again at the end of this movement, you used your charge attack to overrun; the feat Charge Through allows you to attempt the overrun as a free action, meaning if you succeed you could also attack at the end of your charge).

You do have to move to the closest square you can attack from, so the pounce interaction with reach works how you think it does.. only the reach attacks. However, there are specific instances in charge where you can move after your attack, so you move to the closest square you can make your attack roll from, and then if successful you continue your movement in a straight line (bull rush/overrun most common cases)

Sorry for second post, saw your edit later and didn’t care to edit mine (in on my phone).

Edit: when you trample you do not get your weapon/natural attacks, only the trample charge. And the movement in your trample has to be in a straight line, like a charge. Charge with trample is really situational, not meant for aoe/walking over everyone

Well if we go with your interpretation, if selected was overrun as part of charge, then I think you can take pounce attacks at any point during charge, since... The overrun is still a charge and that's all is needed for pounce. Or no?

Are you looking at the trample feat or monster ability? The monster ability (for tikbalang) notes trample is a full round action, but then points back to overrun rules, which points back to charge rules, which points back to pounce rules...

I think the general understanding of pounce is that you can make a full attack instead of the normal attack at the end of a charge. The position you’re taking that would allow for both overrun and the full attack during a charge (without the charge through feat) would also allow you to charge, make your normal attack at the end of the charge, and then also full attack. I’ve never heard of a table that would entertain that idea.

The attacks from a charge with pounce are clearly meant to be your final attacks, not attacks you can take at any point along the way.

And I had forgotten the bit about Trample exclusively being a full-round action, just remembered the bit about it functioning like overrun. So no you couldn’t trample and charge. Because when something “functions just like x” what Paizo is really saying is “other than what we just told you about this ability, it otherwise functions as x”

To clarify, does a creature with pounce ever get to use it against any enemy along the way within their reach? No, they use it against the target of their charge in the place of the normal single attack allowed. Which, when you charge with overrun, you’re already replacing that attack at the end of charge with the overrun maneuver, so without the feat Charge Through you wouldn’t get both.

Pounce by itself doesn't impose any of those restrictions, but there might be something in the movement rules that does. Like spring heeled reaping specifically calls out the ability to move, attack, move, attack where pounce and charge do not. But we are already juggling a half dozen rules text boxes, and I don't care to go looking.

Thanks for your feedback and time.

Sintog wrote:
Pounce by itself doesn't impose any of those restrictions, but there might be something in the movement rules that does.

Like how move and standard actions function?

You can move and attack, attack and move, or you can make a full attack. Anything that allows you to do differently is a special case. So if you don't see something like "may make an attack during their move" in the description, you can't. Permissive rules system, etc.