Elemental sorcerer vs evocation wizard, blast away!


Advice


I've been researching build concepts for both as primarily blaster's because why not. I'm aware that the *power* of a caster has always been in it's utilities. But I also don't overly care. This is for fun and curiosity.

Now looking at them my first instinct is primal sorcerer is the hands down winner.

Level 6. Fireball+one action focus power comparison.

Sorcerer: 6d6+3+3+3d8+3= 18-69.

Wizard: 6d6+2d4+2= 10-48

Clearly the sorcerer has a commanding lead! Dangerous sorcery in conjunction with blood magic and a better damage scaling focus makes it quite powerful!

By level 20 those two features would be responsible for an extra 30 flat damage. That's crazy.

But what are the drawbacks?

1-primal signature spells for majority of the game are fire damage. Wich means if you want that juicy bloodline damage bonus you are casting fire. If you run into resistant enemies that begins to become troublesome. Immunity? Yeesh hope you learned some alternative blasts last level up since you can't auto heighten them.

The above is likely why the bloodline and dangerous sorcery features exist. To help overcome resistance via pure force. Overwhelming energy will probably be an auto include.

2- despite elemental toss nice scaling damy it's always going to be bludgeoning, it's an attack Wich means it's subjected to map of you used an attack spell or cantrip. Because it's an attack it can also miss.

What about the lowly Damage comparison for evocation wizards?

1-any spell you've learned you can prepare in a higher slot, no having to find/learn the higher level version. This means you don't have to just fireball. You could magic missile or hydraulic push. This is not a magic bullet but it's notable. For dealing with resistances.

2- while the focus power is much less damage. 10-25 damage at 20 instead of 10-80 for elemental toss. It's force damage, rarely resisted. It's not an attack, so can get used with attack spells and cantrips. In fact it auto hits. No DC. No attack roll. Automatic damage.

Then you have spell blending. What I honestly think is the best thesis for blasting. This is because you can get an extra highest level slot for the day. That means 5 3rd level spells instead of 4 at level 6. An entire extra round of blasting a day. And with drain focus you can regain some of the spell slots used to get that.

So for pure blasting what's better? On one hand. If you don't run into resistances issues. Sorcerer has notably better damage per spell/round. At level 12 you are getting 12 more damage per spell slot than wizard. That's 48 more damage per day off Max rank spell slot use provided it was a bloodline spell.

But if you do run into resistance issues. Or you use spells with the attack trait resulting in elemental toss receiving map or even just unlucky on your attack roll. You may run into some difficulties.

Wizard extra Max level spell casting per day is not to be undervalued I think. Or is guaranteed damage.

I don't know if I want to compare spell lists for lower level slot use. Both have spells useful when from first level. And while sorcerer is more susceptible to resistance issues. It's not to say you wouldn't have issues as a wizard depending on your spells chosen.

It's like gambling. You want the higher but more susceptible damage? Go sorcerer. You want more consistent damage and slightly longer blasting work days? Go wizard.

As for focus spells. Sorcerer can get up to 3 easily, they can go anything to refocus cuz they are cool like that.

Wizard without dedications get 2. Though they can in combat regenerate 1 focus point twice, resulting in 4 possible uses of your focus pool before needing to refocus, this does require feat investment though.

Less Spike, longer work day, potentially more consistency? I suppose you also lose out on the critical potential that elemental toss can have since force bolt can't critical.

Have I missed anything notable in the realm of blasting?

Just looking it over, I feel more drawn to the options of the evocation wizard. I think it's longevity and options scale better as you level while sorcerer maintains better burst in the correct circumstances


If you want to make a blaster Wizard, you can get Dangerous Sorcery for 2 feats. It's a bit expensive, but the Wizard feat choice is very limited, so, in my opinion, it doesn't change much.

The difference between the Wizard and the Sorcerer is very simple: Spell slots VS spontaneous.
A Wizard has 5-6 spell slots of his highest level (2-3 + 1 evocation school + 1 spell blending + 1 drain focus) and 5 of his second highest level. A Sorcerer has only 3-4 of them at each level, which drastically reduces his number of spells per day. But, on the other hand, the Sorcerer is a spontaneous caster and doesn't have to memorize his spells in advance.
If you like to memorize spells, then go Wizard. You'll get more power out of it.
If you like to choose your spell at the last moment, go Sorcerer.
There's also the question of scrolls. If you have a good access to scrolls, a Sorcerer can have quite an increased spell list thanks to them, and have less problems with long adventuring days.

That's it!
But, in my opinion, both will be very similar in overall efficiency.


Martialmasters wrote:

I've been researching build concepts for both as primarily blaster's because why not. I'm aware that the *power* of a caster has always been in it's utilities. But I also don't overly care. This is for fun and curiosity.

Now looking at them my first instinct is primal sorcerer is the hands down winner.

Level 6. Fireball+one action focus power comparison.

Sorcerer: 6d6+3+3+3d8+3= 18-69.

Wizard: 6d6+2d4+2= 10-48

Clearly the sorcerer has a commanding lead! Dangerous sorcery in conjunction with blood magic and a better damage scaling focus makes it quite powerful!

By level 20 those two features would be responsible for an extra 30 flat damage. That's crazy.

But what are the drawbacks?

1-primal signature spells for majority of the game are fire damage. Wich means if you want that juicy bloodline damage bonus you are casting fire. If you run into resistant enemies that begins to become troublesome. Immunity? Yeesh hope you learned some alternative blasts last level up since you can't auto heighten them.

The above is likely why the bloodline and dangerous sorcery features exist. To help overcome resistance via pure force. Overwhelming energy will probably be an auto include.

2- despite elemental toss nice scaling damy it's always going to be bludgeoning, it's an attack Wich means it's subjected to map of you used an attack spell or cantrip. Because it's an attack it can also miss.

What about the lowly Damage comparison for evocation wizards?

1-any spell you've learned you can prepare in a higher slot, no having to find/learn the higher level version. This means you don't have to just fireball. You could magic missile or hydraulic push. This is not a magic bullet but it's notable. For dealing with resistances.

2- while the focus power is much less damage. 10-25 damage at 20 instead of 10-80 for elemental toss. It's force damage, rarely resisted. It's not an attack, so can get used with attack spells and cantrips. In fact it auto hits. No DC. No...

Fire Oracle you can get +3 per spell level in damage vs +2 using the other methods. Not sure how you calculated +3.

Energy Conduit (+2/spell level damage)
Dangerous Sorcery (+1/spell level damage) you have to pick of sorcerer dedication.

There are a few crazy way to mitigate the damage from Energy Conduit if you can get Flame Form (immune to fire) or Reflective Scales (Damage Reduction + Extra Damage) through Mysterious Repertoire.

As far as Fire Immune, Baleful Polymorph can fix that. There are also a lot of Divine Spells that deal alignment damage on top of fire damage, so you can get around immunity and do some damage even if your fire damage is resisted.

The fire oracles focus powers add a lot of extra hurt and utility.

Blaze of Revelation (this is an all in and very risky feat when used) + Whirling Flames is the nuts and you can even throw Incendiary Aura in there for some extra pain.

Flaming Fusillade (Energy Conduit works, but dangerous sorcery doesn't, but you get the +1 damage back at higher level. is good for steady high DPS on multiple occasion and Incendiary Aura can bring in the pain here as well.

At least, this is how I read it. I am open to correction if I misread something.


Isiah.AT wrote:
...

Oracle? That's playtest material and subjected to change.

Dangerous sorcery+elemental bloodline result in and you cast one of your bloodline spells using a spell slot you get 2/spell level in damage bonus.


Martialmasters wrote:
Isiah.AT wrote:
...

Oracle? That's playtest material and subjected to change.

Dangerous sorcery+elemental bloodline result in and you cast one of your bloodline spells using a spell slot you get 2/spell level in damage bonus.

I have a really silly rules question regarding the blood magic for elemental bloodline.

Given fireball doesn't have a target line, can you pick the damage option from Blood magic? I get the impression you should be able to, but there is a possible reading that a fireball has no targets, only an area of effect, and thus there's no target to pick to apply the bonus damage to. Keep in mind, an AoE fireball can damage a creature you're not able to target.

Of course, with that reading, the damage option would realistically only be usable with Produce Flame and Elemental Toss which strikes me as extremely limited.

Even if it does apply to the area of effect spells, it would apply only to a target, as opposed to all targets.

On the bright side, the target simply takes the damage. Since it is an independent damage effect, and not increasing the base damage of the spell, it doesn't care if the saving throw against the spell was a critical success or if your spell attack roll missed. Nor is it doubled on a critical hit or critical failure.

CRB, page 196 wrote:
Blood Magic Elemental energy surrounds you or a target. Either you gain a +1 status bonus to Intimidation checks for 1 round, or a target takes 1 damage per spell level. The damage is bludgeoning or fire, according to your elemental type (see below). If the spell already deals that type of damage, combine it with the spell’s initial damage before determining weaknesses and resistances.


Martialmasters wrote:
Isiah.AT wrote:
...

Oracle? That's playtest material and subjected to change.

Dangerous sorcery+elemental bloodline result in and you cast one of your bloodline spells using a spell slot you get 2/spell level in damage bonus.

Yea, but me thinks it won't change much. It's all speculative including the build I posted.

I do get the bloodline with dangerous sorcery is 2/level, just can't figure out where the 3/level came from in the OP, less I read that wrong.


Martialmasters wrote:

...

1-primal signature spells for majority of the game are fire damage. Wich means if you want that juicy bloodline damage bonus you are casting fire. If you run into resistant enemies that begins to become troublesome. Immunity? Yeesh hope you learned some alternative blasts last level up since you can't auto heighten them.

The above is likely why the bloodline and dangerous sorcery features exist. To help overcome resistance via pure force. Overwhelming energy will probably be an auto include.
...

So I don't understand this... Assuming you go elemental, you're doing either fire damage or bludgeoning with your bloodline spells, but there's no reason for these to be your signature spells as well. The best sorcerer probably takes Fireball as a signature spell (either bludgeoning or fire damage), but at higher levels is taking things like Chain Lightning, which both diversifies damage type and also does more damage straight-up than does anything in your bloodline even with the bloodline focus.

The *advantage* of sorcerer over wizard is that they *can* pull out a maximum level spell of whatever type of damage they want. Got something with acid resistance? Have an acid arrow. Got something with metal armor? I'll throw shocking grasp your way. That's really what makes sorcerer shine.

Note that I actually think it might be better to go non-fire sorcerer. That lets you pull out your single big AoE damage (Fireball) and not have it tied to fire, and if you *need* fire damage, grab something like flaming sphere later.


Isiah.AT wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Isiah.AT wrote:
...

Oracle? That's playtest material and subjected to change.

Dangerous sorcery+elemental bloodline result in and you cast one of your bloodline spells using a spell slot you get 2/spell level in damage bonus.

Yea, but me thinks it won't change much. It's all speculative including the build I posted.

I do get the bloodline with dangerous sorcery is 2/level, just can't figure out where the 3/level came from in the OP, less I read that wrong.

focus power is effected by bloodline but not dangerous sorcery, thats your 3/level


tivadar27 wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:

...

1-primal signature spells for majority of the game are fire damage. Wich means if you want that juicy bloodline damage bonus you are casting fire. If you run into resistant enemies that begins to become troublesome. Immunity? Yeesh hope you learned some alternative blasts last level up since you can't auto heighten them.

The above is likely why the bloodline and dangerous sorcery features exist. To help overcome resistance via pure force. Overwhelming energy will probably be an auto include.
...

So I don't understand this... Assuming you go elemental, you're doing either fire damage or bludgeoning with your bloodline spells, but there's no reason for these to be your signature spells as well. The best sorcerer probably takes Fireball as a signature spell (either bludgeoning or fire damage), but at higher levels is taking things like Chain Lightning, which both diversifies damage type and also does more damage straight-up than does anything in your bloodline even with the bloodline focus.

The *advantage* of sorcerer over wizard is that they *can* pull out a maximum level spell of whatever type of damage they want. Got something with acid resistance? Have an acid arrow. Got something with metal armor? I'll throw shocking grasp your way. That's really what makes sorcerer shine.

Note that I actually think it might be better to go non-fire sorcerer. That lets you pull out your single big AoE damage (Fireball) and not have it tied to fire, and if you *need* fire damage, grab something like flaming sphere later.

even if you chose bludgeoning, thats all of them, and you still run into the same issue just at a different rate.

also from what i read, the bloodlines spells granted to you are in fact your signature spells at each of those levels. so you cannot make chain lighting your signature spell because its not in elementals bloodline spells.

but assuming im incorrect on this, the advantage of a elemental sorcerer is raw power and some in the moment spell slot versatility with a limited section of spells. a sorcerer will have potentially more options of different types of spells to use with their highest level spell slots, but the wizard will have more higher level spell slots per day.


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Martialmasters wrote:
also from what i read, the bloodlines spells granted to you are in fact your signature spells at each of those levels. so you cannot make chain lighting your signature spell because its not in elementals bloodline spells.

That is incorrect. Your signature spells are entirely independent of your bloodline spells. You can select a bloodline spell as a signature spell, but you don't have to (and often it would be a terrible choice since not all bloodline spells scale when heightened).


rooneg wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
also from what i read, the bloodlines spells granted to you are in fact your signature spells at each of those levels. so you cannot make chain lighting your signature spell because its not in elementals bloodline spells.
That is incorrect. Your signature spells are entirely independent of your bloodline spells. You can select a bloodline spell as a signature spell, but you don't have to (and often it would be a terrible choice since not all bloodline spells scale when heightened).

^^ This. And given you thought they had to be signature, I can see why sorcerer would be a *lot* worse! I've got an elemental sorcerer going and at 5th level I've got Heal, Shocking Grasp (2nd) and Fireball (Bludgeoning) as my signatures, as well as knowing 3rd level Flaming Sphere and of course other damaging cantrips. It makes for a great variety of things you can throw at the enemy, especially when following a good Demoralize attempt :).


tivadar27 wrote:
rooneg wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
also from what i read, the bloodlines spells granted to you are in fact your signature spells at each of those levels. so you cannot make chain lighting your signature spell because its not in elementals bloodline spells.
That is incorrect. Your signature spells are entirely independent of your bloodline spells. You can select a bloodline spell as a signature spell, but you don't have to (and often it would be a terrible choice since not all bloodline spells scale when heightened).
^^ This. And given you thought they had to be signature, I can see why sorcerer would be a *lot* worse! I've got an elemental sorcerer going and at 5th level I've got Heal, Shocking Grasp (2nd) and Fireball (Bludgeoning) as my signatures, as well as knowing 3rd level Flaming Sphere and of course other damaging cantrips. It makes for a great variety of things you can throw at the enemy, especially when following a good Demoralize attempt :).

really? it impacts my decision very little to be honest.

but it does give them more variance.


Martialmasters wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:
rooneg wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
also from what i read, the bloodlines spells granted to you are in fact your signature spells at each of those levels. so you cannot make chain lighting your signature spell because its not in elementals bloodline spells.
That is incorrect. Your signature spells are entirely independent of your bloodline spells. You can select a bloodline spell as a signature spell, but you don't have to (and often it would be a terrible choice since not all bloodline spells scale when heightened).
^^ This. And given you thought they had to be signature, I can see why sorcerer would be a *lot* worse! I've got an elemental sorcerer going and at 5th level I've got Heal, Shocking Grasp (2nd) and Fireball (Bludgeoning) as my signatures, as well as knowing 3rd level Flaming Sphere and of course other damaging cantrips. It makes for a great variety of things you can throw at the enemy, especially when following a good Demoralize attempt :).

really? it impacts my decision very little to be honest.

but it does give them more variance.

Yep really! It's a fun build, but I wouldn't blame someone for doing Wizard either, as just outright having a couple more spells of your highest level is nice (primal sorcerers can get an extra spell... but it doesn't blast :(). Either way, do what you enjoy, but know that sorcerers can be a great toolbox blaster, particularly if you have a way to identify enemy weaknesses.

EDIT: Note, if your campaign has *any* undead/demons, searing light is pretty much a must. Even with some fire resistance, it does massive damage at +4d6 per level.


Martialmasters wrote:
Isiah.AT wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Isiah.AT wrote:
...

Oracle? That's playtest material and subjected to change.

Dangerous sorcery+elemental bloodline result in and you cast one of your bloodline spells using a spell slot you get 2/spell level in damage bonus.

Yea, but me thinks it won't change much. It's all speculative including the build I posted.

I do get the bloodline with dangerous sorcery is 2/level, just can't figure out where the 3/level came from in the OP, less I read that wrong.

focus power is effected by bloodline but not dangerous sorcery, thats your 3/level

Oh! I totally was totally overlooking the proc from Focus Powers with Blood Magic.

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